How to get rid of Ali Karimi?

[Hadi]

i see your point.

But I dont think the fans will be that ignorant. Even during Daie's time, some of his huge supporters (including me) confessed that it was a disaster to see him play in TM after 2005.

[kaz]

You're mistake here imo is that you assume the public opinion is corresponding with the truth. Very often it's not. On the other hand the coach's opinion corresponds with the truth much more often.

And in Karimi's case, there can be no doubt that many fans will not be d'accord with the coach who first decides to leave him out. And the chances, like always, will be very high that the coach is right and the fans won't. But is there any chance that he gets his will without a big uprising?

I guess the chances are very little in Karimi's case. Karimi refused to get subbed in during World Cup, he refused to join TM when called up ahead of an important qualifier (and that in a rather classless and unprofessional way, going over the media instead of talking to the coach in advance) and yet, despite his club career being heavily on decline since 2006, a big portion of the fans blame all of his failures on his coaches, not on himself.

It doesn't take a genius to realize what trouble TM will be in when a coach decides his time in TM is finally up - which, looking at his physique, will not be in more than 2-3 years maximum.

Only other chance I see is that Karimi hangs up his shoes before his time's up, which some suggested. That also wouldn't be too cool, because if the coach would like to use him and he is fit to join, it's pretty ****ed up to let TM down.

But the main problem with a Karimi-exclusion is not Karimi, it's the fans. And the sole point of this thread was how a coach could best retire an aging star without being hated by many fans.

Sorry, most of what you wrote didn't make sense/if not just false.

If the fans are ok with him being there and the coach keeps picking him...why worry about us needing to kick him out?

The only coach who would not invite Karimi without giving him much of a go was Ali Daei. Who blamed any other coach for not inviting him? He has been invited to TM since his youth.

And if a coach in the future puts him aside without testing him in said matches then he deserves the criticism of fans. Ali Karimi is a once-in-several-generations footballer, and is a step or two above most our players even at this stage of his career.

Once he is used by the coach and is failing, then there will likely be some sentiment akin to what Daei put himself through in 06.

[Martin-Reza]

Hadi jan, lol, well, Daei played up to a point where barely anyone could stand him anymore. That also happened because we didn't really have many good strikers. But Karimi's position is different. We traditionally have good players there. A player like Mobali for example would probably be fixed in most Asian national teams, but in Iran the OM competition is fierce.

I therefore took the Karimi example. I am rather sure he will be ousted sooner than many fans would want to, at a point he will still be showing good and successful football in the league.

Now is there a way for a coach to get his will in such a (maybe hypothetical) situation without having to go on war with the public? I am not sure if there is such a way. Maybe as said slowly first use the player as sub, then leave him on the bench before excluding.

But in the end Iran will never be the team scraping easily past most opposition like the fans expect. And every bad performance and result for years might be blamed on the coach refusing to invite a superstar. Like it was the case with Azizi.

[kaz]

Yes of course I know him , both of them in fact , hence I judge my opinions based on that. This is why I thought that you might have met , talked or interviewed a different Ali Karimi than the one I know.

Interviewing someone does not mean "knowing" them. I am talking about a deep understanding of their character. Not a superficial one.

You might know Karimi better than me , I certainly have no problem with that , but how much of this is authentic ? How well do YOU know him , personally , professionally or just formed an opinion like the rest of the lads?

That's precisely the question I aimed at you.

And I've already answered this with the many examples already in this thread. Simply put: Karimi has shown that not playing for Iran is not the be-all and end-all for him. So unlike Daei, we will probably not have to worry.

BTW: I think your reference to Ali Daei is nothing short of inherent childish, stubborn and vindictive behavior. The subject is Karimi but your grudge, resentment and hatred jolts your stability in such a way that you cannot express yourself in any subject unless you refer to Daei as a blackmail tool ..... Quite pathetic.

What's pathetic is that yourself and Martin think people can't see through the intention in this thread. If people like yourself gave a peanut, you would have been criticising Ali Daei for doing precisely this, indeed ruining our World Cup to a great extent, instead of defending him.

Your worries about Karimi doing the same don't seem to be genuine. Indeed, it just seems like something to pick on the man who stood upto Daei. So pardon me, but I can't take them seriously.

[kaz]

Hadi jan, lol, well, Daei played up to a point where barely anyone could stand him anymore. That also happened because we didn't really have many good strikers.

I'll highlight this point. No, that's not true. It wasn't then, isn't now. Ali Daei was being outscored by the likes of Hashemian, Enayati and even Borhani. Hashemian at his peak was played on the left-side so Daei could bag more worthless goals. Enayati was denied his prime also and who knows what he could have been at age 28 instead of when we brought him at 30-31. Borhani, well...thank god he is still young enough to maybe salvage something from his career. Then again, there are also the likes of Ali Samereh we aren't mentioning.

But Ali Karimi...well, he is still one of the best players in the league, easily, even though unfit and injured half the time and is the main reason Perspolis went through their group stage in ACL.

[Martin-Reza]

What's pathetic is that yourself and Martin think people can't see through the intention in this thread. If people like yourself gave a peanut, you would have been criticising Ali Daei for doing precisely this, indeed ruining our World Cup to a great extent, instead of defending him.
Your worries about Karimi doing the same don't seem to be genuine. Indeed, it just seems like something to pick on the man who stood upto Daei.

You're a bit paranoid. I repeatedly explained it is less a problem with Karimi's character than with his fans. It's not against Karimi, I took him as example for a general problem how to get rid of a superstar if the coach feels it's time. He is a good example for several reasons, such as his unique popularity or the big competition in the position he is playing.

[kaz]

Actually Karimi is a very approachable person. A real coach who is does not think he is a god (like a certain coach who was once confronted on the subject of his experience and competence and he responded by "Rottle Muller ham zire daste man kar mikone") will have a chat will Karimi and outline his position... At this very moment Ghotbi can easily pull Karimi and Shojaei to a corner and say "Mr Karimi I believe Shojaei is a great replacement for you and I would like him to start gaining experience by taking your place" Karimi's personality is a in a way that will welcome that and he will step down and release a press conference inviting fans to support the move as long as you don't insult him or his intelligence...
He was never ever a player who thought he is remembered by the quantity of his game rather the quality of them. As oppose to other suspects.
You can't even compare the respect fans have for his opinion with any other player in Iran. All these years he has been one of few players to always make comments that are basically "Harfe dele tamashachiha" without sucking up to Mullahs, going to the Parliament or sending condolences to Ayatollah Behjat...
All it takes with him is friendly and honest approach.

Well said. Repped.

[Martin-Reza]

I'll highlight this point. No, that's not true. It wasn't then, isn't now. Ali Daei was being outscored by the likes of Hashemian, Enayati and even Borhani. Hashemian at his peak was played on the left-side so Daei could bag more worthless goals. Enayati was denied his prime also and who knows what he could have been at age 28 instead of when we brought him at 30-31. Borhani, well...thank god he is still young enough to maybe salvage something from his career. Then again, there are also the likes of Ali Samereh we aren't mentioning.

But Ali Karimi...well, he is still one of the best players in the league, easily, even though unfit and injured half the time and is the main reason Perspolis went through their group stage in ACL.

Wow, you really have some unsloved issues with Daei. I am not going through the whole Daei in 2006 issue again, which also isn't the topic here. Daei's case actually was quite the opposite of the thing I described here.

An aging superstar the coach wants to kick out but the fans want to keep is the problem described here. Daei was an aging superstar the coach wanted to keep but a big share of the fans wanted to get rid of. In terms of public reception, Branko would have had no problems kicking Daei out in 2005.

This is a completely different issue, which shouldn't mixed with what's described here, just because aging superstars are involved.

[kaz]

You're a bit paranoid. I repeatedly explained it is less a problem with Karimi's character than with his fans. It's not against Karimi, I took him as example for a general problem how to get rid of a superstar if the coach feels it's time. He is a good example for several reasons, such as his unique popularity or the big competition in the position he is playing.

But it has to do with Karimi's character. For if Karimi accepts it, his fans will too. It's when Karimi, as Daei showed, is used as a pawn in a game of vendetta that his fans will pour criticism.

Every coach in the world has to face this. If they think they are not good enough, they shouldn't be invited. If they do, then invite them. It shouldn't matter what the fans think. What kind of coach invites players based on the likes of a fan?

[kami_kakashi]

Look what happened to Raul, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, etc... fans will deal with it.

The thing that pains me is that Daei fans can't even be honest with themselves. They are saying that there was no one to play in Daei's position but they are simply ignoring the fact that Daei played 90 minutes every single game even against Maldives! exactly where/when/how we are to produce a target man if we are never giving anyone a chance because of a "koloft party"...

Hashemian was in the most prime situation to be groomed into a replacment for Daei and so where many others. Simple fact is Daei played every possible minute in any game at TM! He would leave Bayern Munich to come and play for Iran against a 5th Tier Asian country making it very hard for a coach to bench him. I never have read in my 15 years of following Iranian football an interview from Daei saying something along the lines "Ma bayad be javuna to poste man forsat bedim"... That is why a player like Bagheri is a true Iranian football legend and Daei is called out by fans with chants like "Daei bayad beraghse" "Toop tank feshfeshe"...

[Martin-Reza]

Look what happened to Raul, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, etc... fans will deal with it.

Those are big footballing nations in which the situation is very different. Just take the Azizi situation which was a huge problem for years. Iran is differnt than those countries. We don't have huge talents every day, and we are keen on hanging on to them very long.

I never have read in my 15 years of following Iranian football an interview from Daei saying something along the lines "Ma bayad be javuna to poste man forsat bedim"... That is why a player like Bagheri is a true Iranian football legend and Daei is called out by fans with chants like "Daei bayad beraghse" "Toop tank feshfeshe"...

This is a dangerous belief. It is not a player's job to decide if it's time to give a chance to younger players. It's the coach's. Every player who says he rather makes space for younger players is either making an excuse or he has discussed that with the coach and agreed to retire.

If the coach says he needs you, and you refuse to play, overruling the coach's opinion by forcing a generation change on his boss, you're harming your national team. Easy as that. Exception is if your physique has declined so much and you can't handle both club and national team football or even pro football at all anymore.

Daei wasn't holding on to his spot, he was assigned to this spot by Branko and only Branko could have legitimately removed him. Not Daei (except from physical problems) and not the fans.

What would you have done in Daei's shoes when Branko says he needs you and you feel physically fit? Would you have left TM because of the fan-opinion? That would be very weak.

And now we actually indeed completely changed subject.

[maij]

Interviewing someone does not mean "knowing" them. I am talking about a deep understanding of their character. Not a superficial one.

I said I know him , superficially as you put it , I did not claim I was his Shrink.....But then again , I am willing to learn, there is no shame in learning ...So , how did you reckon that you have a deep understanding of his character ???

And I've already answered this with the many examples already in this thread. Simply put: Karimi has shown that not playing for Iran is not the be-all and end-all for him. So unlike Daei, we will probably not have to worry.

OH ...at last something that makes sense.

What's pathetic is that yourself and Martin think people can't see through the intention in this thread. If people like yourself gave a peanut, you would have been criticising Ali Daei for doing precisely this, indeed ruining our World Cup to a great extent, instead of defending him.

Your worries about Karimi doing the same don't seem to be genuine. Indeed, it just seems like something to pick on the man who stood upto Daei. So pardon me, but I can't take them seriously.

You are a classic example of my signature Mr. Kaz.

Suddenly you are a judge of character with so much power that you can analyze a person that you have never seen or met , thousands of miles away , with a touch of a few keyboards strokes !!!
You know my inside intention , and that of Martin , you predict future , you decide who is evil and who is saint !!!!!

Pardon me , what is you Major in the college ?

Just for your rich knowledge , I don't give a hoot about Karimi being in TM or Not. In my World (as far as Team Melli is concerned) I have respect for valiant heroes not self centered characters.

[zzgloo]

Here is the BBC analysis,of Daei & karimi :



نگاهی به دوره مربیگری علی دایی در تیم ملی
مهدی زعیم زاده

روزنامه نگار ورزشی


در نهم فروردین ماه 1388 یک روز پس از شکست یک بر دو تیم ملی فوتبال ایران مقابل عربستان و سقوط ایران به رده چهارم گروم دوم رقابتهای انتخابی جام حهانی در قاره آسیا علی دایی از سرمربی گری تیم ملی فوتبال ایران برکنار شد تا عمر مربیگری دایی در تیم ملی به 13 ماه هم نرسد.

آغاز مربی گری


در 12 اسفندماه 1386 در شرایطی که از سوی فدراسیون فوتبال مجید جلالی، افشین قطبی، امیر قلعه نوی ، بیژن ذوالفقارنسب و محمد مایل کهن به عنوان نامزدهای مربیگری تیم ملی اعلام شده بودند به یک باره علی دایی به عنوان سرمربی تیم ملی معرفی شد.

این در حالی بود که دایی چند روز قبل اعلام کرده بود که در بین نامزدهای مربیگری تیم ملی قرار ندارد و "هرکسی لابی اش قوی تر باشد مربی تیم ملی می شود."

به هر ترتیب دایی تنها یک سال و نیم پس از ورود به عرصه مربیگری هدایت تیم ملی ایران را برعهده گرفت.

کاپیتان سابق تیم ملی ایران در مهرماه 1385 پس از اینکه ورنر لورانت آلمانی از سایپا جداشد، هدایت این تیم را که در آن موقع در صدر جدول قرار داشت را برعهده گرفت و موفق شد به عنوان مربی - بازیکن سایپا را به مقام قهرمانی لیگ ایران برساند.

علی دایی در پایان آن فصل و در سن 38 سالگی از فوتبال بازی کردن خداحافظی کرد. در فصل بعد ( 87-86 ) دایی تنها مربی سایپا بود، اما نتوانست نتایج فصل گذشته را تکرار کند.

مدافع عنوان قهرمانی، در لیگ یازدهم شد اما در لیگ قهرمانان آسیا موفق شد به دور بعدی صعود کند.

او در سه ماه ابتدایی سال 1386 به صورت هم زمان هدایت سایپا و تیم ملی را بر عهده داشت که این "دوشغله بودن" او هم انتقادهایی را به سمت او روانه کرد. در نهایت در پایان لیگ 87-86 دایی سایپا را رها کرد و تنها در تیم ملی به مربی گری پرداخت.

آمار مربی گری


علی دایی در سوم فروردین ماه 1387 برای اولین بار روی نیمکت تیم ملی ایران نشست. ایران در آن بازی دوستانه با یک گل مغلوب بحرین شد.

در ادامه تیم ملی با مربیگری دایی نتایج خوبی در دیدارهای مرحله اول انتخابی جام جهانی کسب نکرد و دو مساوی مقابل کویت و امارات به دست آورد.

اما در دور برگشت آن بازی ها ایران هر سه دیدار خود را برد و به عنوان تیم اول راهی مرحله بعدی مسابقات شد.

در مرحله بعدی این مسابقات هم پس از برگزاری پنج بازی ایران با مربیگری دایی شش امتیاز بدست آورد و در رده چهارم قرار گرفت. شکست مقابل عربستان با اعتراض شدید تماشاگران به عملکرد دایی همراه شد و سرمربی 40 ساله تیم ملی ایران بلافاصله پس از این بازی اخراج شد.

علی دایی در مجموع 25 بازی ملی سرمربی ایران بود ( بازی مقابل تیم های باشگاهی در این آمار لحاظ نشده است) که در این بازی های 16 برد و 6 تساوی و سه باخت به دست آورد.


بخش عمده ای از این دیدارها بازی های دوستانه بود ، آمار دایی در دیدارهای مقدماتی جام جهانی چهار برد ، پنج مساوی و یک باخت است.

درست است که دایی تنها در یک دیدار رسمی شکست خورد ، اما تساوی های پرتعداد باعث شد تا آمارش از آمار برانکو ایوانکویچ ، سرمربی تیم ملی ایران در دیدارهای مقدماتی جام جهانی 2006 ضعیف تر باشد.

دایی از هر بازی 1.7 امتیاز کسب کرد و ایوانکویچ از هر مسابقه 2.3 بدست آورده بود.

"عدم تعامل با رسانه ها"


به اعتقاد بسیاری از کارشناسان فوتبال ایران یکی از مشکلاتی که همواره علی دایی در مدت حضورش در تیم ملی با آن دست و پنجه نرم می کرد، نداشتن تعامل مناسب با رسانه ها بود.

در این 13 ماهه دایی به دفعات از این بابت با چالش هایی مواجه شد که آخرین آن به کنفرانس خبری پس از بازی ایران و عربستان بر می گردد.

در این مدت به دفعات روزنامه ها از رابطه نه چندان مناسب دایی با برخی ستاره های فوتبال ایران از جمله مهدی مهدوی کیا و علی کریمی نوشتند.

با اینکه دایی این گزارش ها را تائید نمی کرد اما آمار می گوید در 25 بازی که دایی سرمربی ایران بود مهدوی کیا تنها سه بار و علی کریمی فقط دو مرتبه برای تیم ملی به میدان رفتند.

آخرین جنجالی که در این زمینه برای دایی به وجود آمد، دعوت نکردن از علی کریمی برای بازی با عربستان بود.

با توجه به بازی های خوبی که کریمی در بهمن و اسفندماه برای پرسپولیس انجام داده بود بسیاری از کارشناسان اعتقاد داشتند کریمی باید به تیم ملی دعوت می شد.

اما دایی این کار را نکرد و در جریان بازی ایران و عربستان تماشاگران چندین بار با تشویق علی کریمی نسبت به حضور نداشتن او در این بازی اعتراض کردند.

برخی کارشناسان به غیر از نداشتن تعامل مناسب با رسانه ها و ستاره ها، برخوردار نبودن از تجربه کافی در زمینه مربیگری را از دیگر عوامل "ناکامی" علی دایی برمی شمارند.

اين صفحه را برای ديگران بفرستيد چاپ مطلب ارسال به شبکه های اجتماعیدرباره این سایت ها

[kami_kakashi]

Those are big footballing nations in which the situation is very different. Just take the Azizi situation which was a huge problem for years. Iran is differnt than those countries. We don't have huge talents every day, and we are keen on hanging on to them very long.

No It is not. Azizi situation was unique as his personality is like that to "Balbasho bepa kone"... Karimi is nothing like that. You tell Karimi you don't come to TM no more. He will go into his dark corner and won't talk to anyone as oppose to Azizi who will set shop in front of every news agency and create Hashieh..

Just a simple question. Do you ever concede ina discussion or do you always have to be right?

This is a dangerous belief. It is not a player's job to decide if it's time to give a chance to younger players. It's the coach's. Every player who says he rather makes space for younger players is either making an excuse or he has discussed that with the coach and agreed to retire.

If the coach says he needs you, and you refuse to play, overruling the coach's opinion by forcing a generation change on his boss, you're harming your national team. Easy as that. Exception is if your physique has declined so much and you can't handle both club and national team football or even pro football at all anymore.

Daei wasn't holding on to his spot, he was assigned to this spot by Branko and only Branko could have legitimately removed him. Not Daei (except from physical problems) and not the fans.

What would you have done in Daei's shoes when Branko says he needs you and you feel physically fit? Would you have left TM because of the fan-opinion? That would be very weak.

And now we actually indeed completely changed subject.

I have never exchanged posts on internet with anyone who is so helbent on writing responses that serves no purpose but insult the other parties intelligence...

You know damn well what I meant by that comment. I never said Daei should have told the coach to Foff and use some younger guy. He never even said anything about the fact that "If I don't play a game there is a worthy person to take my place"... something that I have heard from Bagheri, Kia, Nekounam, Mojtaba Moharami, Abdi, Estilli, etc... in their prime when they were starting every game they at least acknowledged the fact..

Daei could have easily controlled the games he should have played and the games younger ppl should have played for experience... This has been a norm in our football and our abroad players have executed this with no issues. Nekounam, Kia, Hashemian, etc.. only trun up for important games which they can add value... They will not leave Bayern for Maldives game.

From my perspective this conversation is done here. Daei was always exception to the rules from some ppl's perspective...

* He had to play every game
* Other abrod players would communicate with coach and only participate in important games while in Daei's case it is coach who has to deal with the heat by not inviting a Bayern Munich player
* Every player gets insulted to the extreme in soccer field and nothing happens but Daei gets insulted and "Kune asemun jer mikhore"
* Every sports brand pays teams to wear their jersy but Daei gets paid for that
* No where on earth the sponsor of team is the head coach of team but Daei is
* A coach who asks players to leave the pitch as protest is called unprofessional and stupid but Daei does that an his fans congratulate him and no fine is set for him
* In no other place a coach can go to Parliament and change a verdict against him but Daei can do

Sometimes I don't know why ppl even bother with Daei fans...

[BehzadB]

From my perspective this conversation is done here. Daei was always exception to the rules from some ppl's perspective...
* He had to play every game
* Other abrod players would communicate with coach and only participate in important games while in Daei's case it is coach who has to deal with the heat by not inviting a Bayern Munich player
* Every player gets insulted to the extreme in soccer field and nothing happens but Daei gets insulted and "Kune asemun jer mikhore"
* Every sports brand pays teams to wear their jersy but Daei gets paid for that
* No where on earth the sponsor of team is the head coach of team but Daei is
* A coach who asks players to leave the pitch as protest is called unprofessional and stupid but Daei does that an his fans congratulate him and no fine is set for him
* In no other place a coach can go to Parliament and change a verdict against him but Daei can do
Sometimes I don't know why ppl even bother with Daei fans...

You are absolutely right. For some , Double standard has no limit when the discussion involves Daie..

Have you ever heard daie talk about his TM teammates after any game?? I doubt it.

lol.. Daie's Logo on TM jersey was the biggest joke in the history of sports marketing.. but I guess that was part of his salary, since IFF is so freaking broke.. but still a big joke..

it is very funny though that Daie's friends are worried about karimi not wanting to retire from TM..

I really wonder what Daie himself has to say about this.