NKorea - Iran

[persianallstars]

( and let me correct you since u tried to compare me to those iri ppl:
first of all in FARSI it is kar-shenas with an "s" not a "z". I dont know if in austria they use z but in IRAN and in FARSI, your mother tongue, it is "s"
secondly it is "persist" , not "resist".)

oha, it seems you are an all-rounder, aren't you? it's not enough that you show off your "consolidated knowledge" about coaching. You have also turned into a living dictionairy. I'm certainly impressed but thx for the correction though!

[Doctor DOOM]

again martin is coming up with what's in some manual.

I dont know how to explain this, but are you saying unless soemthing fits into a template, it cannot work?
again, was there a template for 4-2-3-1 in 60's?

so why are you so rigid and think ONLY these will work and NOTHING else?

if in 4-2-2-2 or 4-4-2 flat or diamond or har kooft o zahremari, your flank players are pushed a bit to the side or to the center, that team is going to explode?
what if one of ur central guys positions himself a bit farther back than the other? suddenly the sky will fall down?
No. it only takes a little adjustment in duties and periphery/zone of operation to make it a working formation.



if you get down to basics before numbers it is more about how hard and fast a player can run, how accurately he can pass and how he tackles or approaches his mark in defending or how he positions himself to receive passes or .... .
all BASIC stuff.

you can have the best formation ( read arrangement of numbers on paper ) in the world. but if your players dont do their duties properly then all ur innovation and arrangement is for naught !

if your central mids cant pass properly then no matter how fresh your numbers' formation looks on paper, your TEAM suffers.

if your striker cannot deal with an extra marker on him and is effectively taken out of the game, then all your modern applications of the latest magazine or coaching manual from some ultra pro league is worth not a penny!

( again, this was mentioned in MANY threads before ... sigh ! )

[Martin-Reza]

again martin is coming up with what's in some manual.
I dont know how to explain this, but are you saying unless soemthing fits into a template, it cannot work?
again, was there a template for 4-2-3-1 in 60's?

There were other systems invented by experts of the game back then. Before other clever experts of the game developed new ones. Like Carlos Billardo inventing the modern 3-5-2. Are you Billardo? Are you someone on his level or even close to that? No, so you have to stick with existing theory. Knowing jackshit about existing theory is no excuse to propose just anything, nor is it the fundament to invent new systems.

if in 4-2-2-2 or 4-4-2 flat or diamond or har kooft o zahremari, your flank players are pushed a bit to the side or to the center, that team is going to explode?

It will result in many many goals for the opponent. But just to avoid any misunderstandings about players not being exactly in position during the game. Those positions are static positions on a paper. They stand representative for roles and therefore skills players need to have for playing there, not for a fixed spot they are standing in. But the roles you put together in a team, would lead to disaster. At the same time, ignoring all existing theory, you call coaches dumb for doing clever things to avoid such catastrophies.

you can have the best formation ( read arrangement of numbers on paper ) in the world. but if your players dont do their duties properly then all ur innovation and arrangement is for naught !

But if you have the worst formation, one like you propose, even the best players can't save you. So the fact that a good system with bad players doesn't work, is no justification for using a bad system.

[persianallstars]

I really try hard to agree on your opinion but I hardly believe a KAR-SHENASwould simply refuse to adapt a suitable formation to iranian soccer.

HAJAGHA, first you say, don't worry we have rahmati, he can blow every single attack (which is absolutely BS because without an intensive cooperation between midfield and specially centre defence, teamet miguse be aab)!!!

then you have mobali and madanchi! the second one has no brain and is running, the first has no brain and can't run! What sense does it make to have the best possible formation available for my team with players like them????

Nevertheless our guys are slow and they have a lack of fighting spirit, specially in the midfield! It is much better if our midfielders come closer to each other rather than playing as a desperate winger. Unfortunately TM is not able to play fast and attractive soccer. Littlebit dribble here and there is too much for them.

[Doctor DOOM]

na agha jan, "formations" do not result in goals conceded or scored.
PLAYERS DOING OR NOT DOING THE DUTIES result in them.

I think now I know why you persist on your words and cant see what I'm talking about.

you are too much about a "template" and cant accept anything but what's written in the manual !!!
get ur head OUT of the mag or book and OBSERVE our players. ( how many times have I said this very sentence today? 6 times? )

for the 13628987648743th time, you can have the greatest and most modern and efficient "formation" in the world.
but if the PLAYER doesnt do his duties correctly or isnt capable of delivering those duties, then your uber-formation isnt worth the toilet paper u wipe ur butt with.



to make it easy on all of us I'll ask this Q:
in ur well-informed and well-read & uptodate-with-latest-formations opinion, have TM strikers been successful in TM GAMES?
if yes, then I wont even go ahead and stop right here.

if no, then due to what factors ?
ONLY lack of quality and nothing more?

[persianallstars]

but if the PLAYER doesnt do his duties correctly or isnt capable of delivering those duties, then your uber-formation isnt worth the toilet paper u wipe ur butt with.

you made a good point! so mobali also isnt worth the toilet paper because player like him destroy every single formation.

[Martin-Reza]

na agha jan, "formations" do not result in goals conceded or scored.
PLAYERS DOING OR NOT DOING THE DUTIES result in them.

But the duties are assigned by the formation. That is why a proper formation is the basic.

Why do you keep resisting? Why don't you simply chose an existing respected formation?

I know why, baby wants his 2 strikers, COM, 2 side midfielders and a fourback. And since that altogether at once doesn't exist in today's compact football systems, it's better to simply forget about reality and create a utopia in which we can have all that.

Unfortunately this is only working inside your head and not outside of it. Once you accept the realities, you will see why systems like the 4-2-3-1 are liked so much by coaches.

[Doctor DOOM]

HAJAGHA, first you say, don't worry we have rahmati, he can blow every single attack (which is absolutely BS because without an intensive cooperation between midfield and specially centre defence, teamet miguse be aab)!!!

hahahaha
clear example of not reading anyone's posts but commenting on it !!!
when did I say "dont worry we have rahmati"?
if you ever bothered to read you'd know I'm actually saying "plz DO worry that it takes rahmati to save us from 3-4 goals in each game"

so until you read my posts, I'm afraid I'll have to ignore urs.

[persianallstars]

azizam where did you get your knowledge from?

are!!!! Rahmati can also play striker, it's not his usual position but who cares? Iran is different, everything is possible, we can abandon every single tactical issue....

[persianallstars]

hahahaha
clear example of not reading anyone's posts but commenting on it !!!
when did I say "dont worry we have rahmati"?
if you ever bothered to read you'd know I'm actually saying "plz DO worry that it takes rahmati to save us from 3-4 goals in each game"
so until you read my posts, I'm afraid I'll have to ignore urs.

interesting you don't answer my question about your genius mobali and madanchi.....

[Doctor DOOM]

But the duties are assigned by the formation. That is why a proper formation is the basic.

Why do you keep resisting? Why don't you simply chose an existing respected formation?

I know why, baby wants his 2 strikers, COM, 2 side midfielders and a fourback. And since that altogether at once doesn't exist in today's compact football systems, it's better to simply forget about reality and create a utopia in which we can have all that.

Unfortunately this is only working inside your head and not outside of it. Once you accept the realities, you will see why systems like the 4-2-3-1 are liked so much by coaches.

hahaha
LOL.
actually this looks like YOU want someone to commit to one of ur templates.

I'm saying there IS NO template if the player doesnt do or isnt capable of doing his job.

for example, all our single strikers have been incapable of delivering the duties of your single-forward templates.
simple as that.

now if you go on trying to eat ur soup with a fork, then go ahead.
but dont ask ME to pick up a fork to have my soup, buddy.

[Martin-Reza]

You talk about TM like they were Maldedives' U12 women's team. And even they would play better in a real system than in one made up by Dr. Doom.

And you are too much into black-or-white thinking here. It's not about working or not working, it's about how good or how bad it works.

You argue something is not working, so it doesn't matter what we do. That is not a valid approach. We could be much worse in any department, and your tactical proposals would assure that.

Those templates have been created by experts over years. You are coming with general statements to counter that. How is a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 a fork and Iran's football a soup?

This is nonsense. Who is supposed to invent a "spoon" then? You? Who did so in the past? Who was the last one to invent a "spoon" outside the "template forks"? Give examples. You are talking and talking and are losing touch with the real world completely.

[Doctor DOOM]

You talk about TM like they were Maldedives' U12 women's team. And even they would play better in a real system than in one made up by Dr. Doom.

And you are too much into black-or-white thinking here. It's not about working or not working, it's about how good or how bad it works.

You argue something is not working, so it doesn't matter what we do. That is not a valid approach. We could be much worse in any department, and your tactical proposals would assure that.

Those templates have been created by experts over years. You are coming with general statements to counter that. How is a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 a fork and Iran's football a soup?

This is nonsense. Who is supposed to invent a "spoon" then? You? Who did so in the past? Who was the last one to invent a "spoon" outside the "template forks"? Give examples. You are talking and talking and are losing touch with the real world completely.

1- no. I argue if something is not working, TRY another .

if ur fork isnt helping w ur soup, try picking up a spoon. maybe that'll help.


2- no. "I" am coming with TM ( ie; IRAN ) games as evidence that the system doesnt work for us.
not what is written in ur manual which "YOU" keep referring to.
remember?


too much drinking of impure water sometimes plays tricks with the mind !!

[Martin-Reza]

There is no "not working". Come out of your black and white world!

[TrueBlue]

There is no "not working". Come out of your black and white world!

MR jan, I have problems with TM adapting 4-2-3-1 formation as well, not because the formation itself is bad, but simply because of the fact that we are missing players who can perform and deliver in two key roles in that formation:

1- Lone striker up top: can anyone here please tell me WHO in the current TM roster can fill that position?

2- Creative central midfielder: I was really hoping Karimi could deliver after being called up again, well, I personally didnt like what I saw.

Now fill those two spots and 4-2-3-1 will be a killer formation (in the old days, a young and fit Karimi and in form Daei delivered time and time again). Besides the two points mentioned above I was baffled by Ghotbi's player selection.... I have said in other posts as well, as far as my limited memory can serve, Shojaee doesnt not have experience playing as LW, Nosrati despite being somewhat convincing, has been away from competative matches for very long time (he fulfilled his defensive responsibilities but offensively....) and P. Nouri as DM ???