How strong is IPL?

[gol_kuchik]

gol kuchik e aziz,
owning a business in Iran is different than other places, and specialy a big business...which with all mafia and governement control....and choob la charkh.....it will either not grow,or will be semi-governemental.

so perhaps within the confine of government control and mafia influence this is the best
we can expect of IPL?

[zzgloo]

so perhaps within the confine of government control and mafia influence this is the best
we can expect of IPL?

Yes, thats true,in my opinion, and any other expectation would be wishful thinking, unless,this system is changed....
how ever, there are some good points to this system that one can capitalize on....things such as interest of this system to have stronger teams for poletical marketings.

[gol_kuchik]

Yes, thats true,in my opinion, and any other expectation would be wishful thinking, unless,this system is changed....
how ever, there are some good points to this system that one can capitalize on....things such as interest of this system to have stronger teams for poletical marketings.

That's very true zz Jan,
But IPL is not in the spotlight, and that's why it is ignored,
TM is. That's where we can expect to have any positive influence TM.
IPL is simply a broken organization within many other a lot more
important and even more broken organizations. Just a simple example:
The air in Tehran, where most of the IPL teams are, is the dirtiest in
the world! The polution index even topped that of Mexico city on a
number of days (150 days! according to one source). That alone can
put players at such a disadvantage, when you consider 90 minutes of intense running during
the game and hours upon hours of running during practice.

How can this problem be fixed? It is goes way beyound IPL I think.

[maij]

well for starters
everytime a good player is poped out in IPL, they soon go to Arab leagues....
I mean I could understand if u have a resonable offer from even turkey's league, but arab s league
that itself is the first thing that causes damage to our league
look at these players and imagine if they were in our own league...
Iman Mobali (key player of foolad)
Mehrdad Oladi (finally a promising PP forward next to Kazemian and he goes)
Javad Nekounam( the leader of Pas)
Farhad Majidi(deacent striker)
Ali Samere (same)

I mean I understand they need money and all....but till the day this is the system, our league will never go anywhere

That is 5 players out of over 500 league players, albeit 5 good players. And for the record , only one of them is a starter in the national team (Nekounam).

If a league manages to produces only 5 good players then your league is crap to start with, don't blame others my friend, a good league should be able to produce dozens of players that are capable to play in a professional league.

But then again, how come Brazil manages to win the World Cup while NONE of its players play in the domestic league????

The English Premier League is undoubtedly one of the best, if not the best in the world. It has been like that for decades, how come England never won the World cup except once only???

[BehzadB]

We can analyse other leagues to learn things from them but we can not compare leagues. Each country has its own "issues" with it's football programs. Unique to its own country

We are at a different level alltogether and unique in a way.
I think we are the richest and poorest at the same time. (if that makes anysense)

If I had to do only one thing to improve the level of the game (which is what we need to imporve the league ), I would demand a good playing AND practicing fields for ALL IPL and division 1 Teams.

I would never allow Malavan, or shamoushak or Bargh or Fajr, Foolad and SS-Ahwaz to play in IPL. Not with those stadiums.

Of course many other things have to improve to make the league better but the FIELDS that the games are being played on are the most fundamental problem with our football. anyone that has played the game knows that. You can not even begin to teach or learn PRO football if you are not practicing/playing on a level field. Once we get that done, then we can emphasize coaching, transfers, camps, friendlies, professional mangement, facilities,...etc.

I don't care how good the car is or how good the driver is, if the road is full of wholes, you are not gonna have a good drive. Car being the League, Driver being the Player!! the road being the the Field and the ride being the game of football.

[zzgloo]

I agree with behzadb jan 100%,as I also metioned this issue earlier...
There is an article on fifa.com about the " QATAR ",and its commitments to be a strong team in asia, which is true, as UAE,and Qatar,bahrain,and kuwait,and the saudies,will be very tough in future...specialy with the budgets they use,and the inferstruture they are building......as well as thier leagues and forign coaches,and players they have been employing....
But, since, it does not appear,that we can challenge thier commitments,and thier budgets,,,,we can only, count on our streangh,which is haveing more population,and great desire of our youth....and as behzadb,said, with more, standard football fields,through out Iran, our talent level,will defenetly compensate, for our lack of manaagement and budgets.

[BehzadB]

I forgot to add something,

Eleminating most of the sports media (paper) would be the second thing I would do. We need to communicate the issues, the progress, or lack thereof, through dependable media sources. Only through a FEW good media sources can we find out WHAT EXACTLY is being done or NOT done by the men in charge. Or what their problems are or how we (the society) can help. It seems that there is absolutly no communication there. news, reports, data all comes in bits and pieces, without any "sure" validity.


Because of the messy media that we have, a lot of damaging propaganda can easily be fed to the public. good people can be represented and believed to be bad, and even worse, bad people can be represented as good. I am not worried about some stupid reporter talking crap about a player. that is easy to spot, for most. But I am worried about some player, coach or an official using that same MESS to his own advantage in a negetive way. for example, Say what you shouldn't say and just deny it later and blame it on the messy media. That can only be stopped by reducing (by a bunch) the number of sports papers

[gol_kuchik]

If I had to do only one thing to improve the level of the game (which is what we need to imporve the league ), I would demand a good playing AND practicing fields for ALL IPL and division 1 Teams.

I would never allow Malavan, or shamoushak or Bargh or Fajr, Foolad and SS-Ahwaz to play in IPL. Not with those stadiums.

Great! Since you seem to be very informed about IPL, could you draw a
picture for us of
1-how many of the 16 teams are owned by government and how many are private?
2-How many of these clubs have their own practice soccer fields
and how many have their own stadium?
3-How many of these clubs have a youth program starting around 11 or
12 years of age?
4-Who decides how much money should go to IPL and how are the funds distributed? What is the total budget?

I am eagerly waiting for your reply.
Thank you.

[maij]

1-how many of the 16 teams are owned by government and how many are private? .

Please ..please...can I answer this ? this is my favoriate qestion and the Answer is:
Nearly ALL clubs ,including the two most popular , are government owned directly or indirectly.


This is the biggest administrative setback , in my opinion, in development of a proper league and sport in structure. The alternatives are not rosey though. Private clubs in Iran hve not been too succesful for one reason or another.

[BehzadB]

Great! Since you seem to be very informed about IPL, could you draw a
picture for us of

I did not claim nor imply that I am "very informed" about IPL. It was a hypothetical situation (IF I could do something about imprving the league), that's where I would put most of my effort.

The playing Fields and the practicing fields are the most fundamental tools and the most basic requirement to teach / learn / develop football at a Pro level. And that was my opinion.

1-how many of the 16 teams are owned by government and how many are private?
2-How many of these clubs have their own practice soccer fields
and how many have their own stadium?
3-How many of these clubs have a youth program starting around 11 or
12 years of age?
4-Who decides how much money should go to IPL and how are the funds distributed? What is the total budget?

I am eagerly waiting for your reply.
Thank you.

1. SS Ahwaz and shamoushak of Noshahr are (as far as I know) the only Private teams in our Pro league.

2. There are a lot of teams in the IPL and D1 that have their own fields. A few of them have their own stadiums.

3. A lot of them , Pas, Foolad, SS Ahwaz, Peykan, Saipa, Zob, Sepahan, Pegah, are the ones that I know have youth programs. I am srue there are many more

4. I am not sure I undrestand this question. I gues the "organization" or the "company" that owns the team decides what sort of a budget they have for football. Foolad for example spends about 2 bilion toman on football. SanatNaft does not. They spend far less.

I am not sure where you are going with these qeustions. All the issues you bring up are important issues and BOOKS can be written about them.

Privatization is not going to work in Iran. Not in the foreseeable future. It did not work before 1979 and it will not work now. No one with right mind is going to make an initial investment of 20 to 30 milion $$ and then spend 2 mil $$ every year (at a minimum) to operate his team. For what? Would you do that? I wouldn't.

Germnay and the U.S government pay ZERO dollars to their pro teams. Iranian government pays milions of dollars every year "through" companies and organizations that use "public budgets" or "Beitol Mal" for their pro teams in IPL or D1. (Foolad, Pas, Zob, Sepahan, Saba, Pegah, PP, SS, SanatNaft, BankMeli, RahAhan ..etc). You see what I am saying?

[gol_kuchik]

I did not claim nor imply that I am "very informed" about IPL. It was a hypothetical situation (IF I could do something about imprving the league), that's where I would put most of my effort.

The playing Fields and the practicing fields are the most fundamental tools and the most basic requirement to teach / learn / develop football at a Pro level. And that was my opinion.



1. SS Ahwaz and shamoushak of Noshahr are (as far as I know) the only Private teams in our Pro league.

2. There are a lot of teams in the IPL and D1 that have their own fields. A few of them have their own stadiums.

3. A lot of them , Pas, Foolad, SS Ahwaz, Peykan, Saipa, Zob, Sepahan, Pegah, are the ones that I know have youth programs. I am srue there are many more

4. I am not sure I undrestand this question. I gues the "organization" or the "company" that owns the team decides what sort of a budget they have for football. Foolad for example spends about 2 bilion toman on football. SanatNaft does not. They spend far less.

I am not sure where you are going with these qeustions. All the issues you bring up are important issues and BOOKS can be written about them.

Privatization is not going to work in Iran. Not in the foreseeable future. It did not work before 1979 and it will not work now. No one with right mind is going to make an initial investment of 20 to 30 milion $$ and then spend 2 mil $$ every year (at a minimum) to operate his team. For what? Would you do that? I wouldn't.

Germnay and the U.S government pay ZERO dollars to their pro teams. Iranian government pays milions of dollars every year "through" companies and organizations that use "public budgets" or "Beitol Mal" for their pro teams in IPL or D1. (Foolad, Pas, Zob, Sepahan, Saba, Pegah, PP, SS, SanatNaft, BankMeli, RahAhan ..etc). You see what I am saying?

I am asking you for specifics, you are answering in general terms like "a lot"
of teams have this or "some" teams have that or I don't know the basic facts
that IPL teams have no control over their budget, or how the money they
get was initially allocated, and how much, Yet you are ready to boot
teams out of IPL because they don't have properly maintend pitch?

Then you make comparision with U.S and Germany, I don't know about
how German clubs are run, so I won't comment on something I don't know
but in U.S, teams get HUGE amount of help from the government. A club owner first asks the local government where it wants to form or relocate its
club to, for all sorts of help: Free land, help with construction of stadium, long term loans ... In addition teams have direct power to negotiate T.V deals, and all that comes with sponsors. So your statements on IPL is not
well informed and about U.S incorrect.

If I mention privatization as a solution, and you disagree, you have to at
least get clarification from me on what I mean, and what the interaction
should be between a private club and the government. Then you establish
checks and balances like it is customary in the rest of the world to make sure
both private and government part of this deal, stick to their obligations.

Approaching the problem from this angle, will benefit many parties:
A local government has a lot of interest in seeing a stadium built so that
jobs are created. Roads are built to the stadium. Hotels and shops are
built to accomodate visitors. Many times this will not be a profitable venture
in short term and that's why a private party can usually not do it all by
himself, but with a plan and in the long run many successful examples can
be found.

In Iran today, relationship of incompetent managers who are appointed by
who knows what process, and who usually are running sports which they
have no clue on how to run has been responsible for the shape IPL is in.
No accountability, no clear process defined, very little consequence for failure.

That's why, no one knows:
1-Who is responsible if a stadium collapses or people get killed while exiting
a stadium?
2-Who is responsible if the condition of the pitch are so bad?
3-Who is responsible if players don't get paid?
4-Who is responsible if a team does not perform?
5-Why teams get created in Tehran, that have no fans, yet major cities like
Tabriz, Oroumieh, Abadan, Khoramshahr, Kerman ... don't even have a team
in first division, although fan base and local support is so strong.

[BehzadB]

gol agha,

I think you mixing up too many issues. You asked me a few questions and I answered your question based on what I knew. I named the teams that I knew have youth programs, stadiums or practice fields, but those are just the ones I knew. it don't mean they are the only ones. but my point is, who cares anyways. let's say there are none other than the teams that I mentioned. What's your point?

-----
I think we have to talk about the issues one at the time. I am still to undrestand what your are 'basically" trying to say with you post.

---

In our country, football is funded by "POOL-E Melat". companies and organaizations like Foolad, Zob, Naft, Saipa, Peykan, Fajr, Rah, pas, SS, Saba, PP, all except the Two that I know are private, are all owned by the State. the only money that state has , comes from "bait-ol mal". that means people's MONEY is being spent in those companies. the football budget for the teams (owned by these companies or organizatons) comes form the same "money". this means, Daie's salary, and Miraz's and Korbekandi's and Parvin's "ALL OF THEM" , their hotel rooms,their tickets to 'where ever" all and all has been paid for by that money. Are we ok so far?


------

As far as U.S. and it's government's help to PRO sports, you could not be more wrong. I don't know where you get that idea from that Pro teams get free land or money from U.S government. I think you are mixing up the ROLE of the indivdual States in DEALING with or acquiring a PRO sport team. There is no money being spent by the Government for anyone to own, run or manage a Pro team anywhere in the U.S. It just doesn't work that way.

Late Joe Robby was ecconimically forced to SELL his Miami Dolphins Pro Team because of back REAL ESTAE taxes (amonting to many millions of $$) on his Sports Properties including the land his stadium was built on, among other things. Government of the U.S did not forgive a penny. He sold it to the "then Owner" of Bluckbuster video company. Wayne Huyzinga.

What you are mixing up is this. A state will sometimes look at a pro team (to come to or remain in that state) in an Economocal way. A deal will be made between the state and The pro team to make econimical profits TOGETHER, therefore as in any business transactions, to strike a deal some consseions are made. That's not A Charity Help. that's not done because a STATE government, say Californa, really just LIKES to have a PRO team in CA. It is a business decision that makes sense for "that state" and "that team", to have that team make that state his home. For example, What do you think SHIRAZ would pay PP to change it's home to SHIRAZ? (to give you an Iranian anology). do you really think that CITY of OAKLAND gave Al Davis money help to run his team or gave him land or anything just because they LIKE football so much? No Sir. It was a business deal.

The owners of the NE patiorts had a beef over a new stadium here in New England. He wanted the State to put up money to build a new Stadium. state told him to f off. bob Kraft came into the picture after he bought the team, and after a mess with the state and threatening to take the TEAM out of NE, he struck a deal with the state. They Came close to leaving NE. Numbers had to make sense for both sides. A business deal was struck. NO CHARITY.

so I don't undrestand why and how you say pro teams or pro sports in the U.S get "HUGE" amount of help from the government. they get nothing. They pay taxes (huge amount of taxes) on payrol, land, facilities, cars, everything. And if they don't pay, the team and all it owns will be auctioned off. (but before that happens, the team is sold to some other rich man).

Agha, any pro League in the U.S would charge a new team millions of $$ just for making it to the league. Just for saying I am here. Ask Texas owner what he had to pay to have a team in NFL. Bilions of $$ LOL.

And this is why he paid that much to have a team:

This is from Forbes magazine:

The National Football League is the most valuable and profitable team sport in the world. This year the average team is worth $733 million, a 17% increase over last year. Operating income (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) for the 32 teams came in at $851 million on revenue of $5.3 billion, an operating margin of 16%.

they don't need help from the government. Just tell the U.S government to leave them alone with taxes. NBA, MLB, MLS all the same way. the numbers are smaller, but the same rules apply.


----------------------

Back to Iran.

At this point, the way our economical system is, it makes no sense to have privatization of pro sports unless a LOT of things change too. it didn't make sense in Shah's time either. There is no Money in it!!! Why should the private Co, invest? Why would a wealthy man or woman put his money in a pro league in iran?


My father in the 1350's supported (owned) an Amature team for a few years. he made a good team (jam) that won the local league. but when a rich (friend) and owner of city rival team (shahbaz) was able to offer 7 or 8 of our players and the coach a good contract my father had to let them go because he knew he could not afford to match that offer. the good players of the team and the coach joined the (shah-baz) team and made a new team called "Rastakheez" of Khoramshahr that played in the last year of "Takht-e jamsheed", with their caoch and several key players from Jam. I remember how the owner of Rastakheez team was spending money like crazy without any return. there was nothing in it. Just love! do you think Abdo (the Real owner of Perspolees) made any money with his team? He was a very rich man. He did it out of LOVE, not business. there was no business. All the unforms and shoes for Rastakheez players were from "England" or "Germany". The Russain Youth Omeed Team with a very famous player at the time (I forgot his name but I bet Majid would know), came to Iran and they played Iran Omeed and Rastakheez. Which shows the man was conected too. He spent money on Rebuilding the old Stadium to make it look like "Amjadieh". So he did whatever he could to have a pro team in the 1350's in Khoramsharhr Iran, and He knew it is all costs and no income. it did not make business sense then, and it still makes no sense.

We can't talk about a PRO league like the one in the U.S or England or Germany or spain or Italy, in the same way as we do about the League in Iran, simply because everything in iran is unique to its society and system.

As we stand,

1. it makes no business sense for me or you or anyone to make investments in pro sports in Iran. I am sure we can agree on that.

2. As I explained earlier, All that is being spent on Football is people's money, (gevernments money). So, the government is spending the money, but it is not Enough to have a league with the standards that some other countries do. However, they have better leagues because of MANY THINGS but NOT because their Government is spending money on them. Why they have good leagues, is just another issue by itself.


3. One can not run a good business, using Government money. Eveyone wants to take a piece of Government's money and there be not much left for the business. A good business is a private business. With PRivate money so everyone has to answer to someone else. And on top of the Pyramid, ONE or FEW guys (the rich owners) are watching everything like a Hawk.

4. when we put together, 1, 2 and 3, we get the mess we have in Iran's Pro football.


so , what was your question?

cheers.
and sorry aobut the long posts. please try to keep it to one issue at a time.

[zzgloo]

Branko also, like many of us on this thread,said on his recent interview,that the number one problem for improving football in iran,is lack of infurstruture,and lack of standard football fields...........
and on secoundary point,he added,In corecia,profesional teams,all have lower teams,and developing football players,in different age groups...teams of 14 year olds, team of 15..and so on...and all teams,should have the stediums of thier own,and two other practice fields.

[BehzadB]

Branko also, like many of us on this thread,said on his recent interview,that the number one problem for improving football in iran,is lack of infurstruture,and lack of standard football fields...........
and on secoundary point,he added,In corecia,profesional teams,all have lower teams,and developing football players,in different age groups...teams of 14 year olds, team of 15..and so on...and all teams,should have the stediums of thier own,and two other practice fields.

And the german coach, Jurgen Gedeh (i think that's his name) said after seeing the Azadi field (some years back) that if this is the best you have, your football is not going anywhere.

[zzgloo]

behzadb jan, I like to also add the following issue,which may not appear to be related to the issue at hand, yet , in my opinion it does.!!
In the united states,In addition to construction companies, there are sub-contractores of landscapings,as well as lawn companies......
This Lawn companies, have realy made a science out of lawn makeing and its assemblies as well as all types of lawn that exit and can be used....
On the types, they have kinds,with more densities,kinds of more durables, types that requires less water,kinds specificaly for different seasons,and so on,and so on......
and on assemblies, as you may know, they manufacture them in blocks !!, as in chess baord blocks,which on the day of seting, they bring roles of blocks of these lawns, and in a matter of minutes,make a beautiful " CHAMAN "....
...........
Long story short, unfurtunately, as many other things, this industry does not exit in Iran, nor does the appretiation for it.....in fact, the cultural understanding of " FAZAYE SABZ " is so low, that when there is land within a city,that is desegnated to be a park, or " FAZAYE ZABZ ", what they do is they pave far too many side walks and benches,and lights,and mosaics,that there will be very little land space left to grow any grass and lawn.and more over, on the little space that is remained, they plant ,flowers,such as ' gole mohammadi,or roses,or ' banafsheh ', on a dusty ground,with very skinny trees planted in far to far apart distances...the ending result will be , as you would look at a ,lets say 1000 squre meter space, something that looks like anything but " FAZAYE SABZ "..................and all you see are mosaics,side walks,benches,and some flemsy trees that does not look like it could last any more than 5 to 6 mounths...........