Why do we need to play with two DMs in a must win game in Tehran?

[zzgloo]

Iran played with two DMs Nekoo and Ando against a very young depleted (very young and without key players like Ismail Mattar) U.A.E team that played with one lone striker. Why?
This was a must win game for us. We all saw the energy of a single player )Khalatbari) when he came to the field impacted the game so much.
Introduction of Haydari was very good even for that short period of time. Once again it was proven hunger and desire is much more important than name and player's past history?
Ando in Seoul I can understand, but in Tehran against a young depleted U.A.E team in Tehran ? WHY?
Karimi isn't that young anymore and our midfield really can't support Hashemian at all, maybe addition of one creative mid-fielder someone like Jabbari, Mobali will be the difference???!

Ghotbi in his latest interview, suggested,the 4-2-3-1,does not mean one striker.....it could mean 3 attacking midfielders also......
If, the game is going to happen mostly in UAE's part of the field,them 2 DM are actualy play as " Our Midfielders ", and the front 3 would be attacking and joining the forwards.....
What I am saying, is, where the lines are going to be assigned, and how advanced they will be,will give 2 DM a different meaning.

[Mr.Good]

Ghotbi in his latest interview, suggested,the 4-2-3-1,does not mean one striker.....it could mean 3 attacking midfielders also......
If, the game is going to happen mostly in UAE's part of the field,them 2 DM are actualy play as " Our Midfielders ", and the front 3 would be attacking and joining the forwards.....
What I am saying, is, where the lines are going to be assigned, and how advanced they will be,will give 2 DM a different meaning.

100% true,

The beauty of 4-3-2-1 is that you can have at least 3 players in the box going for the goal when attacking. 1 Striker, and two from (OMF,LMF RMF) depending on where the ball is being played from?

[Doctor DOOM]

Ghotbi in his latest interview, suggested,the 4-2-3-1,does not mean one striker.....it could mean 3 attacking midfielders also......

ghotbi can "SAY" what he wants.
he "says" we had 4 strikers , eh?

shdnt that mean if ur center fails to score, your OTHER 3 shd be able to score?

now, lets examine the other 3:
we used karimi, shojaei and kia.


of all the players tried in the 3 man midfield, only a few actually fit the formation: karimi ... WHEN FIT perhaps would be an example.
( and if we reaaalllyy want to stretch matters, maybe madanchi.... who wasnt even used !!! )

becoz these 3 shd be able to score goals freely just as well as the striker. but when we use the likes of zandi, kia, shojaei, ..... since they are not goal scorers with any real consistency, our forward moves are diminished and reduced to forward threats only, that almost never translate to goals !!
and subsequently, the responsibility of scoring a goal falls on the LONE striker again!


so what ghotbi ( and other proponents of 4-2-3-1 ) "claims" is one thing but REALITY shows differently.
if Karimi is not fit, we DONT HAVE any player with the characteristics of the likes of kuyt, van persi, schneider or .... who can play in this format.

we shd OPEN our eyes and acknowledge we dont have kuyt or xavi or ronaldo in Iran. we are RESTRICTED to IRANIAN players and among them we dont have many who CAN play this format !!!

so lets get our heads out of books and manuals and euro TV, and for once talk about IRANIAN players, shall we?

[Mr.Good]

^
you say that Karimi is not fit and thus cannot be used as OMf in the 4-2-3-1, yet you are proposing to place the same unfit Karimi in in 4-4-2 with only Nekounam behind him in which the unfit Karimi will get tons of defensive duties

[Doctor DOOM]

I'm saying if karimi is NOT fit, then we shd have the guts to change him.
if you see me defending karimi after showing he's unfit then you can argue the above.

in BOTH formations, the mids HAVE to work their arses off and defend as well. and nobody can have purely "offensive" duties ... despite what Mr. shojaei thinks ! that is expected from all players in all formations.

and again, you ppl seem to "choose to omit" major clues in what ppl post: "IF the IRAN's team wants to SCORE goals and WIN games" .
very different from a team trying to maintain midfield advantage or prevent opposition or keep the ball or run down the clock or .... .
very different


contrary to some ppl, I am man enough to admit to choosing wrong or accepting reality as I was the first to say karimi was weak in NK game, for which I was advocating the use of him.
or kia in the uae game.

but there are others who lack the pair, I guess, to admit to many other claims that have been proven wrong again & again.

[Mr.Good]

wonderful,
who will you use beside Karimi, and Shojaei?
The terminally ill Navidkia, or the unfit Jabbari? maybe you like Zandi, I heard he has great defensive abilities..
Oh, I forgot about Mobali?

[Amin_]

I was reading through last year's thread after our UAE match and came across some posts:

NOTE: The following post is from a year back!!

We're not saying that 4-2-3-1 system is a bad one in general; no, many big teams and coaches make use of it, so it does have good futures, agreed.

BUT, what I/we am/are saying i that this system has proven not to be working for us in TM!!


There are 2 options:

1) a coach has a system in mind and selects his players based on that system;

2) a coach selects players and comes up with a system that fits these selected players.

At this moment (and also in the past), we had players who did not fit this system but we forced them to play it, even though it was obvious it wouldn't work!


We have a very slow defence, so we can't press and play far from our goal.
Now we have 2 out of form DM's, one who's average at best (Ando), who can't give decent passes even if their lifes depended on it, so the transition from defence to offense is horrible.

This totally puts our side players out of the game. We have 2 rookies on the sides, and even before, didn't have the right people on these positions (ok on the right we had Kia, but he's been declining and on the left we never really had anyone for this position).

With this formation the wingplayers are vital and there should be a playmaker who can open up spaces and add up to or close the 18 box, the transition from defence to offence is so bad that this half-playmaker (Shojaei) was forced to the sides all the time and had to do way too much.

That brings us to the offense...when you know you're playing a weaker team who's come to defend with all they have, you don't put 1 striker inbetween 3-4 defenders, specially with players behind him who can't give one decent pass/cross!

Hell, even if Drogba was playing, still he wouldn't have been able to score with the balls he was fed (or lack of it in this case).


This system does not work for us, and the results and performances have proven this! Daei should come up with a formation that the players are comfortable with and which fits this team and its players!

I don't care how many of the players have played under this system at their clubs...ok perhaps the system works for those set of players...but when it's been so obvious that it simply does not work for the players who're selected in TM, then other measures have to be considered.


When I say a coach has to be flexible and look at the players he has in his squad and then find a suitable system to play, it reminds me of Branko and how he tried to force Hashemian to play on the left in order to play the 4-2-3-1 system and to have Daei upfront
It hurt my eyes seeing how VH was struggling at that position back then.

[Ali Chicago]

Did you read my post? Or you already thought I am opposing your opinon? Or you are like Dr. Doom, being obessesive with the formation?
Anyway, enjoy your stay.

Haji jaan, I was merely supporting your argument (Brzail comment). I guess writing in English isn't our strongest point and it somehow gets lost in translation.

Oppose or in agreement, I enjoy reading your posts.

[Ali Chicago]

Ghotbi in his latest interview, suggested,the 4-2-3-1,does not mean one striker.....it could mean 3 attacking midfielders also......
If, the game is going to happen mostly in UAE's part of the field,them 2 DM are actualy play as " Our Midfielders ", and the front 3 would be attacking and joining the forwards.....
What I am saying, is, where the lines are going to be assigned, and how advanced they will be,will give 2 DM a different meaning.

Bahram Jaan,

Ghotbi's point is true, but my question was different. When UAE plays with 1 lone striker and Iran must win, why do we need 4 defender and 2 DMs. Plus even if we have two DMs, we can use someone who joins the attach, has nice diagonal ball distribution, able to change teh point of attck, not someone like Ando for UAE game. Ando will be a great addition in S. Korea game in Seoul ( I have nothing against Ando per se). But in a must win game aginast a weak, injury depleted UAE team, playing with 2 DMs?

More importantly, as Haji and Payman times and times have mentioned, systems and formation are a mere guide line. Football isn't a chess game in which pieces are just that mere pieces a pawn is a pawn if u play against me or against Karpov (former world champion of Chess). In football it is different there are players who have physical and emotional state. You yourself saw the difference b/w Kia and Khalatbari. Kia is a much more experienced and far more complete player than Khalatbari, but yesterdary it was different. Khalatbari was effective and Kia wasn't. Point is even if we use a formation, use a player in the formation that can be effective.

Iran had no (Zilch) offensive plan, it was the same shit during the GN, Daie and now Ghotbi's leadership. Actually we have one, cross the balls to the lone forward who was Hashemian and even when shorti Borhani was there, still same crap. Karimi saved our sorry ass yesterday, don't know how many times miracles happen.

[Ali Chicago]

Finished watching South Korea and KSA and these two teams are a head and shoulder above our current TM. I am so sorry and ashamed to say this, but it is my opinion.

Our 98 WC team, changed so many coaches, had 1/100 of camps and pro league that we currently have and played heck of a lot better football than this TM.

[yashar_fasihnia]

Finished watching South Korea and KSA and these two teams are a head and shoulder above our current TM. I am so sorry and ashamed to say this, but it is my opinion.

there, thats the problem!
how many different coaches came and went, did we see any improvement in TM? no, it only became worse!

we need to accept reality, that we arent as good as they are.
when our league isnt as strong as theirs, obviously the players our league produces arent as good as theirs either. we may have some raw talents, but wats the use? if albert einstein was born in somalia, he wouldnt have become albert einstein. he definitely would have the potential but because of malnutrition and other limited resources compared to germany, he would just be a raw talent with not much to offer.

we have a bunch of oldies who during their peak were among the best asian players and would walk over all these koreans and saudis (but not anymore) and a bunch of young, mediocre players who are the result of our mediocre league (compared to asian levels).

now people can keep blaming the coaches, the formation, its no use.
when our league cant produce one decent defender or one decent forward of even asian standards, we can play any formation under any coach but it wont help because unlike chess, football is a dynamic game and hugely depends on the players performance inside the field.

when our best striker cant score a tap in REPEATEDLY time after time, why should we expect our team to do better than korea and saudi arabia?

changing coaches and formations will have minimal impact on our game.
unless we bring a coach who is on a much higher level than all this previous coaches, we will see the same performance in TM again and again, with different squads, with different formations and with different coaches.....and ofcourse, the same arguments over and over again in PFDC!

[Doctor DOOM]

we need someone like Dehdari who has more balls than belly.

I thought daei would be the gutsy one. but he also crumbled and lost his guts in the middle!

I guess it is cultural. and Iranians are slowly losing their spine and guts !!! they become overly cautious and conservative, beyond limit !

[Martin-Reza]

Our coaches simply have more brain than guts, fortunately.

[Essi]

we need someone like Dehdari who has more balls than belly.

I thought daei would be the gutsy one. but he also crumbled and lost his guts in the middle!

of course he had guts. He was the only coach that didnt invite both Kia and Karimi when he thought they were out of shape. I wouldnt invite this Mahdavikia if I was the coach. He also had the balls to play yougsters like Khalatbari and Hajsafi.

[Doctor DOOM]

there is nothing wrong with using kia and karimi. we cant have black or white. there's a lot of grey in between.
it is the METHOD od use that is questionable.

his lost his guts when he came up against decent teams.

- in azadi, against SKorea
- in azadi, vs ksa
- even in uae

the "how & why"s have been put up in related threads on these games
but the most glaring lack of guts was seen in ksa game in azadi!