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**Doctor DOOM** · 06-11-2009, 09:48 AM

why SCORING a goal ( at least ) in SKorea is VERY important.

if you ppl have kept up w the news, fifa, despite its slogans of fairplay, has decided to go ahead with the final 2 games of the group be played at different times, which allows for a lot of unfair scenarios

( so aside form their retarded schedule, the one chance they get to redeem their miserable mistake, they refuse to also !! I wonder had it been japan or ksa or china in our place, would they persist with their original f**k up? I doubt it )

seeing that NKorea is +2 in GD, Iran +1 with both having score 7 goals, apart from the GD, the number of goals scored also comes into play shd the GD remain the same.

which means even if we get lucky and meet a lackluster SKorea and manage to get a 0-0 ( which is the best ghotbi's attitude and line up seem to point towards ), and even if ksa wins NK, there are scenarios where we could be eliminated too !

aside from a 1-0 ksa victory, if NK manages to score even a single goal, ksa will have to push themselves ( for us !!!! hah! fat chance of that happening ) to score not 1, but THREE goals to keep the match GD at 2 goals .

so even a 2-1 ksa victory, gets NK through and send us home!
coz I doubt ksa would kill themselves to score the 3rd goal once they have secured their automatic spot with a 2-1 victory.
so chances are both teams will play for a safe 2-1 NK loss and come out happy.

this is why even scoring a goal at SKorea is tremendously important. even if we get a 1-1 draw.

now, which one of you ppl are going to say with this line up & formation we're going to score a goal against SK ? ... when we died to score a goal against uae's kids !!!!!!

remember the goal we scored vs SK was NOT in the run of play and was off a set piece. that means we cannot rely or guarantee scoring off set pieces and we HAVE TO plan to score a goal in the run of play.

still want to persist with 1 striker, who cant shake off his markers?
and a midfield who basically cant score unless karimi is fit ?
still want to persist with the dumbed-down shojaei ?
still want to sacrifice creativity from midfield by adding to the crowd at the back?

**kami_kakashi** · 06-11-2009, 02:43 PM

am I missing something. (correct me if I am wrong)

North Koread GD = +2

Iran's GD = +1

If NK loses the game vs KSA their maximum GD would be +1. If we draw SK our GD will stay +1.

Which mean we go through because head to head we have a win and a draw vs NK.

EDIT: Just re-read DD's post wow number of goals plays a role too. That's ****ed!

**Amin_** · 06-11-2009, 02:49 PM

Peyman jaan, it's like having a deja-vu from last year's match against UAE. It's interesting reading through that thread. Here some parts of a post I made back then (the original post was HUGE

).

NOTE: This post is from a year back!!

Originally posted by Amin_ View Post

There are a couple more examples, but I will get to them in the post below.
What?! You’re kidding me? Doesn’t the fact that we’ve played horrible and have had such a goal scoring problem next to that, show you that this formula hasn’t been “successful”?!
Define failure? Failure for me is when Iran has played 3 games, 2 at home, and has gained only 3 points, with 2 of them being a goalless draw!
Failure is when I don’t see 3 consecutive passes and all we see is long balls from the back! Failure is…
Again, you seem not to understand the point. I’m not saying 4-2-3-1 is a horrible system in general, I’m saying that it hasn’t been working for TM and its selected players!
What other formations have been successful for us in the past is irrelevant, simply because we had other players playing and the situation was different! I don’t know for sure what formation will be the best, but it’s been obvious for ME that the 4-2-3-1 hasn’t, not only because of the results, but also because of the awful game play itself!
Perhaps a 4-2-3-1 system with Bagheri and Nekounam as DM’s, Hashemian upfront and and 2 in form players on the wings could be successful, we don’t know. BUT with the players we have right now and with what recent history has shown us, this system seems not to be working for us now!
Of course there are other reasons as well that have influenced our game, but this has been around TM for years and it’s not something new. We’ve never really had lots of friendlies, never has this IFF been competent in planning and organizing things, there have always been side issues around TM, there has always been hashiyeh, there has…
In fact I don’t blame Daei at all for his shortcomings! Neither did I blame Qn. I blame IFF and all the morons there who came up with the election of these 2 (potentially good, but internationally inexperienced) coaches at such crucial times!
There is no 100% guarantee that other formations will work, but what has almost become a guarantee is that this system seems not to be working, no matter how few time Daei has had to implement it (again, this is my opninion).
I’ve already given you a little explanation on why this system does not work for TM with the players in hand.
When you have 2 out of form DM’s who can’t distribute the ball and are not a good transition link from defence to offense, 2 rookies on the sides who don’t seem to be sending good passes/crosses, incompetent strikers to play as a lone striker, and you’re playing AT HOME against weaker opponents who’re there for a draw (with max. 1 striker) and you yourself are looking for a win, plus you’ve already seen in previous matches that neither the game play, nor the results have been satisfying under this system, then why try it again?!
And again, we saw that it didn’t work. And mind you, Neku has only recently returned. Might he still have been injured, I bet Daei would’ve played Ando (again, average at best) and Sadeghi (even worse than Ando, and not competent enough for such international duties yet imo)

I did not say that! Please don’t mix up things. I said that with the current players in hand, this system doesn’t seem to be contributing much in our offensive line. Simply because we didn’t have the right players who could build up an attack from the back.
I’ll get to what I believe is the best option later on.
Just like you say that playing with 1 striker doesn’t necessarily mean “weaker offense”, playing with 1 DM doesn’t necessarily mean putting the defence under more pressure!
Yes we don’t have the best defence ever, but we should not exaggerate it either; no matter what, they’re still much better than most of the defenders in Asia, let alone these Arab teams we’re facing in our group! When other teams dare to play with 2 strikers and one DM, with all those poor players, how come we’re afraid to put “our defence under pressure” against these Arabs (who’re there with only 1 striker) and we field up 6 defensively minded players against 1-2 offensively minded opponents?!
A team like Holland usually plays 4-3-3, but there have been times that they changed this to a 3 men defence and a 5 men midfield (3-1-2-1-3, when they faced weaker opponents who’d come for a draw) – like you said, you have to see this in relative to the strength of the opponents.
So like I said, removing 1 DM doesn’t have to mean that our defence will be under more pressure. You just have to field up other players in midfield who can fill up some of the extra space (players like Madanchi, and Kazemian). Again, this insecure GK and shaky defence is still considered as one of the best in Asia!
Again, reducing 1 DM doesn’t necessarily mean more pressure on defence! It’s just how you implement the new formation and what other players you field up!
I believe having 1 clear playmaker behind the 2 strikers, and 3 men behind him in midfield with Neku in the middle might actually do the work.

I believe the playmaker position is the most important job and that all players’ duties must be to transfer the ball as soon as possible to this man (being it Jabbari or Karimi). So you’d have to have players behind him who can give decent passes over a distance of 10-15 meters. Ando is not one. His ball control and passes are too awful which takes away all the speed and messes up this transition!
Once this playmaker has reached the ball, the players on the sides should add up and the strikers have to position themselves well (an Enayati type of player whould make space for a quick 2nd striker like Meydavoodi, like by making a 1-2 with the playmaker). This way the playmaker has the time (and we do have players in this position who can hold on to the ball for a second) to choose between a depth pass, or one of the 2 players on the sides, with the 2nd striker (this case Enayati) adding up if the ball goes to either of the 2 sides).
This is what I meant in my beginning paragraph: You keep going on about wing play and how some formations lack them, but I did not say I necessarily want to see that! When you don’t have the right tools, don’t force yourself! In 4-4-2 the wings are not the most important aspect. The most important thing is to transfer the ball to the playmaker, who then has 2-3 options to distribute the ball further to the offensive line/sides (like I tried to explain above). With a quick techniqual player, you could play in depth balls, and with the other type of striker (the Khalili/Enayati), one could make 1-2’s and open up spaces on the sides.
This way you’ll have many options, whether the in depth pass to the fast striker, the pass to one of the sides for a cross to the Khalili/Enayati type of striker, the strikers creating space for the playmaker or one of the players on the sides who can add up and who can dribble and create chances for themselves etc.
It’s kinda hard to precisely explain what I mean with my limited English though…
Again, you’re making assumptions! I did not say I necessarily want to see wingplay, in fact I don’t, simply because we don’t have the right tools at this moment!
Of course one can play all kinda strategies with every formation, but what Daei wants is to make use of the wings a lot, but it’s obvious with the tools in hand that that does not work. With the lack of a playmaker and strikers like Khalili/Enayati it’s difficult to play depth balls and players like Nikbakht don’t have it in them to make depth runs or to come up with decent crosses for most parts of the game (at least from what I’ve seen).
With the lack of movement from our wingers in the depth and with the lack of them adding up in the box and with our player’s lack of ability to give decent crosses/passes, Daei’s “adoption of 4-2-3-1 system and also wanting high balls” (like you mentioned yourself) doesn’t seem to be working!
Yes and that’s why I have been saying it!! Is what I’m saying right? Doesn’t have to.
When you’ve seen that neither the game play nor the results have been satisfying for a long time under this system, then for me that is proven not to be working!
Like I said, it does not matter what formations and systems have proven for us in the past, simply because other players/opponents were involved. This formation could've worked in other situations, but again, performances and results have shown that it does not! This is a personal view and opinion, and for me it's obvious, so I can make such claims whenever and how much I want!! I don't need to prove what system has worked for us in the past to make claims that the current system does not!!
And no one said it's only the formation that's hold us back from decent game play and decent results. I’m the last person you need to tell that to, as I’m aware of most the things that occur around the team and in its management. BUT next to all those side issues, the most important thing when you're actually on the pitch, is the system and players you've selected and that is what this discussion is about, whether the system works for us or not.
With all the sh!t going on, Iran still has one of the best players to choose from in whole Asia. Iran's B team without any friendlies, with a coach they didn't know and with all those new faces, beat the Asian Champion's A team and became the champions in that little Arab tournament. So yeah, even though the side issues play a major part, still when on the pitch, the system and players selection is very crucial!
YES indeed, I DON’T CARE HOW MANY PLAYERS PLAY UNDER THIS SYSTEM AT THEIR CLUBS! I did not say that we have “ghaavs” playing in TM who need 10 years to get to know this system. Yes, they might be familiar with the system at their clubs, but that is their club, with other players, other coaches, other opponents, other level, other…
Ok let’s say Daei had 18 player in its squad that played a 2-7-1 formation in their clubs (lol), should he have used that for TM as well?! Let’s say he’d tried this strange formation for the sake of the players, “who’re already familiar with the formation” and he did neither get the desired results, nor satisfying game play…what then? Should he try it again the next time, and the time after that, and after that and…?!?!?
It’s not like a 4-4-2 system takes 2 years to understand either. Many players are familiar with it already and have played it somewhere in their career before! Seems like it is you who needs to exaggerate things to make an argument, not me!
The UAE doesn’t play 4-2-3-1 either normally, but you saw that their coach implemented this formation with great success against us, in AZADI, and that without having working on it for a year

And please, you don’t need to say how my theory isn’t “scientifically proven” or whatever, it’s just an online forum and whatever everyone says is based on their own interpretation of the game, how they see things and it’s all their own personal opinion. I never claimed my theory is the right one and I'm not forcing it down Daei's throath either, it’s just how I see things!

**Amin_** · 06-11-2009, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Amin_ View Post

Here's the rest, it was too long for one post:
.
What kinda childish reply is this?! I just mentioned Branko using Hashemian as LW, simply because it’s his system we were talking about and how some coaches tried to force certain players to play out of position just to stick to their system.
And what has Qn have anything to do with it? Yes it was only because it was Branko, happy now??

Why do you act as if I said that in order to look flexible a coach has to make changes all the time :-/
Qn made changes when he thought was necessary and most of the time they worked in our advantage. At least he read the game well and was man enough and smart enough to see his mistakes quickly. He didn’t stick to the same crap even though it was obvious it didn’t work. But I don’t understand why you brought up Qn here anyway.
And fyi it hurt my eyes seeing Zandi there at first, but it worked out pretty well! With the problems Mr. Branko had left for our LB position, Zandi was a decent solution imo. It had its advantages and disadvantages (see my posts on this from back then), and it was risky, of course, but it worked out pretty ok at the end imo.
lol who said Daei chose his players randomly?! lol what are you talking about??
You have coaches who play the same system 90% of the time and mostly choose players who fit their systems/idea’s the best. But you also have coaches who are wimps (!) and try to force important players to play at certain positions, even though it’s not their usual positions and even though they’ve clearly said they don’t feel comfortable playing there (reminds you of someone?).
You don’t need to bring up Qn every time. Perhaps Zandi played out of position and was not happy playing there at first. So what? What’s your point? What does Qn have anything to do with this discussion and me talking about Branko. Mind you, Branko does have something to do with this whole discussion, since it’s been particularly his system that we see today, and his laj bazi to keep playing it despite not working (again, my opinion

) and despite not having the right players for it (again, MY OPINION!! YOU DON’T NEED TO TELL ME THAT IT ISN’T SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN THAT IT’S RIGHT lol

).
Like I said, no one said that another formation will work 100%. BUT when you don’t get the desired results or the satisfying game play, then you should consider other measures as well. For Daei it’s been only a couple of months and a few games, for other coaches, years. I just don’t want to regret it afterwards when we’ve been eliminated (Khoda Nakoneh) and say “what if…”.
Sometimes a coach does laj bazi and sticks to his system and certain players for years without any significant result and at some point even very bad results. He then gets fired and a new coach arrives and comes up with a new strategy with the same players and “tadaaa” the team with the same players plays beautifully and gets some good results as well.
What does that tell you? That the strategy used by the previous coach did not work for these bunch of players, simple as that! Now for a club it’s not such a big deal, but for a National Team it can be disastrous (specially at this stage)!
This might be one of the longest posts I’ve ever written in my PFDC history…now I’m off to VIP to release some stress…50 where are you????

And all that was just 1 post (I even took out some parts because otherwise it would be much longer

lol).

**Doctor DOOM** · 06-11-2009, 03:28 PM

^ yes, I get ur drift.

unfortunately, we enjoy walking into a closed door, again & again & again & again .... etc etc etc!!

and somehow in all that, actually believe we are going through the doorway. not becoz we feel different. No. coz each time we get hurt and get bruised !
but becoz in some picture book we keep referring to, there's this blond-haired fellow who goes through the doorway !!!!! so in our mind, just becoz that chap has gone through, then by some crooked logic, WE shd get through .... or worse, we feel we ARE getting through!!!

( LOL. perhaps repeated skull trauma by banging it against the closed door, causes such hallucinations and delirium . lol )

**yashar_fasihnia** · 06-12-2009, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

I believe some of us need to walk into a door about 3000 times before it downs on us that this freaking door is closed !!! … and perhaps we shd try another door.
Again, we shd pity these sad creatures, not fight with them.

just as expected, nobody had the balls to answer the questions on how and which IRANIAN players have fitted the 4-2-3-1 formation.
When did this formation actually help us in our offensive moves/games? ( dont mistake it w individual brilliance like yesterday's karimi )

And I see inane references from European football or what “shd be” rather than “what is” comments! Which I will ignore from now on coz it’s not worth the toilet paper I wipe my butt with.

I even saw a very pathetic, feeble attempt to gain credit for the formation by using this uae game as an example!!! I’ve seen similar pathetic examples before too.
Struggling against uae’s reserves and youth 11 !!! hah!
Needs no argument. Just shows ppl’s level of deduction and intelligence.

or maybe it shows ur intelligence on interpreting people's opinions and reiterating the same thing over and over again, like a tape recorder!

so ONCE AGAIN, here is a reply to APPARENTLY, an "unanswered question"

sepahan played 4-2-3-1 and went all the way to the finals of ACL.
perspolis played 4-2-3-1 and won the league.
saipa played 4-2-3-1 many times the season they won the league.
zobahan if im not mistaken has played with 1 striker (not sure if they played 4-2-3-1 exactly cos their matches dont get broadcasted for me) and won the hazfi and came runner ups in IPL.
saba under firooz karimi has also played 4-2-3-1 intensively and reached ACL and ended 4th last season and 6th (i think) this season behind all the other top teams.

infact, every top team in Iran in recent years barring esteghlal has played 4-2-3-1 and achieved great results.

also, nekounam & shojaei have both played 4-2-3-1 in osasuna.
if im not mistaken mahdavikia has also played in this formation before in germany.

but of course, that is not enough proof for u that the system has worked with iranian football and iranian players.

i remember i posted all the results of our TM games when we played 4-2-3-1 as well and they were almost all good results.

but ofcourse, all this is not proof for u and some others because apparently, u guys dont realize that majority of our TM players are from osasuna, saipa, perspolis, sepahan, zobahan and saba.....

and frankly, i didnt post this for u and a few others who share ur mentality in general cos i know it makes no difference. i posted it for others to read in general....

so, now u can continue with ur "bi khaye" and " experimenting a closed door" discussions...

**Doctor DOOM** · 06-12-2009, 09:40 AM

PART 1:

1- sepahan ... are you talking about the sepahan who advanced the last few rounds NOT on the back of good offense, but mass defending which led to penalty shoot outs and 0-0 draws ? that one?

2- shd I even remind you we're talking about PROPER opposition that we see in WCQ's against TM?
you want to bring up the likes of pegah and fajr and saba ?
when your measuring stick is of such low standards, isn’t it obvious that when we meet proper opposition we crumble down? As seen in the same sepahan, ss, pp, … in ACL and TM in its games?
shdnt it be an evidence AGAINST it ?

3- same thing about saipa

perhaps this is why we dont discover our folly. becoz we have our heads dug deep into the sand and our measuring sticks are IPL clubs !!!!!

aside from nekunam, shojaei's role & his efficiency in osasuna shd be another clear answer that neither he fits into the system, nor is it useful for US to try it with him.

this one thing is enough to prove how wrong we are.

apparently in your view "attempting" to play is the same as "actually delivering the duties" !!!

put me behind a formula 1 car and I will "attempt" to drive.
would you call my driving the same as a proper formula 1 driver's ?

cntd in part 2, below

**Doctor DOOM** · 06-12-2009, 09:41 AM

PART 2

since again, nobody answered WHO can play this formation , let me make this simple for you.
since you know the 4-2-3-1 duties, then you shd know and recognize this:

of all the players we have tried at TM for this formation only a handful actually are caoable of delivering the duties ( and I'm not talking about "attempting" or "half-arsed jobs" ).
and for ur kind info, most of those players are defenders or defensive mids ( key point here).

but when you go to the 4 posts in front, you'd see ( you shd be able to see, but whether you'd admit is a different thing ) we have perhaps 1 or 2 players who CAN deliver these duties..... not just "attempt to play" or "play in that post". you have to DELIVER all the demands of the post too.

let me break it down:

in striker role, players like VH, borhani, rezaei, meydavoodi, khalili, khatibi, enayati, salehi, .... have been used. but NONE of them proved effective or capable of delivering the duties.
each one for their own specific reason. such as lack of stamina, short height, lack of skills, lack of pace, ..... .
the thing is : none of the fit!

in the 3 mids behind, we've tried an army of players and you can hardly find a few who were CAPABLE of delivering the specific duties or having the characteristics required for these posts.

a fit karimi is one. but then again, he's hardly been used and his fitness is not all that consistent.

and perhaps an intelligent madanchi is another. but he also has shown to make quite a few unintelligent choices !

khalatbari has the energy and pace and scoring ability to be the central one. but he lacks the maturity and the intelligence. and he is hardly used in the center anyway! ... always pushed to one side!

of the rest who've been tried, almost none of them have the basic characteristics of bring able to supply as well as finish ( to put it in simple words ).
they usually are either suppliers like kia, zandi, ... who cant finish or are finishers who fail in supplying and cant play in the flanks ( use of enayati, borhani, .... in flanks ).

------------

so after all this we reach what I've been saying:
we DONT have the right players for this formation if we need to WIN GAMES.
testament to this is the fact that we've looked miserable in our offense, looking like headless chickens who keep banging against a brick wall, but not getting through!

however, we DO have some players who CAN fit in it in games we need to simply reinforce our defense or play a holding midfield possession football or .... . ( even there I have my doubts as we've never looked SOLID & IMPENETRABLE !! )

everything has its own specific use.
a spoon has its own which is different from a fork's.
formations and line ups , much like players , also have their own SPECIFIC (key word ) USE too.
Just as you pick up ur spoon to have ur soup, while you use the fork for noodles, you shd be wise enough to pick and choose the more suitable options for players, line ups and formations BASED ON THE NEEDS OF THE GAME.

**yashar_fasihnia** · 06-12-2009, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

PART 1:

1- sepahan ... are you talking about the sepahan who advanced the last few rounds NOT on the back of good offense, but mass defending which led to penalty shoot outs and 0-0 draws ? that one?

did it work or no? did they get the necessary results or not?
unless u wanna temme if sepahan had played 4-4-2 and if luka too had more guts

, they would have walked over all the other asian opponents!
this is totally expected of u! even with such good performance and results, ur trying to make an argument against them. i guess unless u r a brazil supporter, u will never be happy. thankgod u are a barca supporter, and u can get some satisfaction from ur club football.

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

2- shd I even remind you we're talking about PROPER opposition that we see in WCQ's against TM?
you want to bring up the likes of pegah and fajr and saba ?
when your measuring stick is of such low standards, isn’t it obvious that when we meet proper opposition we crumble down? As seen in the same sepahan, ss, pp, … in ACL and TM in its games?
shdnt it be an evidence AGAINST it ?

irrelevant!

1)they can also play 4-4-2 or any other formation against such low teams like fajr and pegah but arent, are they? why? maybe cos that brings the best out of them which u fail to see?
2)this also shows that majority of TM players have been playing with this system in both club and country for some time now.
3)again, let me say this clear, JUST BECAUSE WE CRUBMLE DOWN INFRONT OF STRONGER OPPONENTS DOESNT MEAN, ITS BECAUSE WE ARE PLAYING 4-2-3-1! u talk as if these teams would have done better in ACL had they played another formation! when our league is weaker than saudi arabia, obviously our representatives will also not be upto their standards, whether they play 4-2-3-1 or any other formation!

is this really so hard to notice?

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

3- same thing about saipa

perhaps this is why we dont discover our folly. becoz we have our heads dug deep into the sand and our measuring sticks are IPL clubs !!!!!

aside from nekunam, shojaei's role & his efficiency in osasuna shd be another clear answer that neither he fits into the system, nor is it useful for US to try it with him.

this one thing is enough to prove how wrong we are.

apparently in your view "attempting" to play is the same as "actually delivering the duties" !!!

put me behind a formula 1 car and I will "attempt" to drive.
would you call my driving the same as a proper formula 1 driver's ?

cntd in part 2, below

if u peyman jan, were the best driver we could have available to us, and also, if u peyman jan, regularly drove behind formula 1 in some league inspite of not being a very good driver, then u have an advantage over us and if anyone has to represent iran, it is u, and not me or anyone else who are even worse than u!

**yashar_fasihnia** · 06-12-2009, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

everything has its own specific use.
a spoon has its own which is different from a fork's.
formations and line ups , much like players , also have their own SPECIFIC (key word ) USE too.
Just as you pick up ur spoon to have ur soup, while you use the fork for noodles, you shd be wise enough to pick and choose the more suitable options for players, line ups and formations BASED ON THE NEEDS OF THE GAME.

very true, but only a small flaw in ur metaphor.
you are ASSUMING, that we have the spoon available to us for TM problems.
in other words, for having a soup, u have a perfect solution which is the spoon.
but for TM's problems, we dont have one such solution. so it wont work, we dont have the spoon!
its more like u have to eat the soup u are given but u dont have a spoon. so u can either take the fork and try to have ur soup, or alternate (and "experiment") as u would call it and use the knife, realize ur worse off, and then go back to the fork cos atleast u can eat some veggies or noodles with ur fork!

ur TM formation is heavily flawed.
u want to play 4-4-2, with karimi and nekounam in the middle and 2 forwards.
this has 2 major problems:

1)by playing only karimi and nekounam in the middle, u are restricting nekounam to stay behind and not move forward. nekounam is our most dangerous player who can score on headers, or shots or even rebounds.
but when he is the only DM in the team, he wont be able to move forward and in this way, we are losing our strongest weapon and limiting him only to defensive duties and ball distribution.

2)karimi doesnt run enough to cover all the space between our 2 forwards and our midfield. he will always be out of place, either drop back next to nekounam and in effect, there is a huge void between our midfielders and strikers and eventually force either or sometimes both our strikers to come back to midfield for the ball thereby virtually changing to 4-4-1-1 which is even less offensive than 4-2-3-1, or karimi will have to stay upfront and nekounam has to single handedly deal with all the korean pressure in midfield!

4-2-3-1, although not my ideal line up (i prefer 4-1-4-1 given our current players) overall is a much better formation than any other for the current players we have.
with this weak defense, and number of attacking midfielders that we have and also considering nekounam who is our DM is our single most dangerous weapon and we need to give him freedom to move upfront, 4-2-3-1 is a very suitable lineup for us.

if we are not getting the necessary results and/or not playing good enough, it doesnt necessarily have to be because of the formation. there could be and there WILL be other reasons, which have been mentioned before.
also, just because we dont get the necessary results and/or we are not playing good enough, doesnt mean everything is wrong with the team.
the team could be doing some things right (formation is one of them in my opinion), but there are other things they are doing wrong, and the negatives eventually overweigh the positives and we see negative results/performance.

**Doctor DOOM** · 06-12-2009, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by yashar_fasihnia View Post

did it work or no? did they get the necessary results or not?
unless u wanna temme if sepahan had played 4-4-2 and if luka too had more guts

, they would have walked over all the other asian opponents!
this is totally expected of u! even with such good performance and results, ur trying to make an argument against them. i guess unless u r a brazil supporter, u will never be happy. thankgod u are a barca supporter, and u can get some satisfaction from ur club football.

irrelevant!

1)they can also play 4-4-2 or any other formation against such low teams like fajr and pegah but arent, are they? why? maybe cos that brings the best out of them which u fail to see?
2)this also shows that majority of TM players have been playing with this system in both club and country for some time now.
3)again, let me say this clear, JUST BECAUSE WE CRUBMLE DOWN INFRONT OF STRONGER OPPONENTS DOESNT MEAN, ITS BECAUSE WE ARE PLAYING 4-2-3-1! u talk as if these teams would have done better in ACL had they played another formation! when our league is weaker than saudi arabia, obviously our representatives will also not be upto their standards, whether they play 4-2-3-1 or any other formation!

is this really so hard to notice?

if u peyman jan, were the best driver we could have available to us, and also, if u peyman jan, regularly drove behind formula 1 in some league inspite of not being a very good driver, then u have an advantage over us and if anyone has to represent iran, it is u, and not me or anyone else who are even worse than u!

1- again, you either know what I'm saying and are avoiding it, or it just doesnt strike you;
common knowledge: knock-out stage needs different tactics and even draws can be wins.
in group games, a draw is only 1 point, 2 less than a win.

shd I be bringing up such basic, common knowledge stuff?
it's such a waste of time. I was this close to just ignore this post as irrelevant.

2- once more, you have avoided ( or havent understood ) the meaning of "attempting to play" which is very different from actually doing it.
what we see in IPL is mere attempts !

in IPL we "pretend" to be playing it and this stays hidden coz we put our heads into the sand! our misery comes to surface when we face decent asian and international opposition which comes as a rude awakening.

3- you can enlist in a cycling competition & make a worthy campaign out of it and stop "pretending" you have the drive or the car or the knowledge to enter a formula race.

**Doctor DOOM** · 06-12-2009, 11:11 AM

first of all, 4-4-2 is a far more simplistic formation than 4-2-3-1.

I dont know what u mean by not using our strongest weapon.
first of all neku is a DM in 4-2-3-1 as well as 4-4-2. so he can do the same things he does in the other. in both, his defensive characteristic is the priority.

secondly, u call him supposedly our greatest weapon ( aside from PROVING how INEFFECTUAL we have been in offense that makes our DM as the greatest weapin

thank you ), I think you forget ( or avoid ) where he's scored.
all his goals have been off set pieces.
meaning he hasnt done it in the run of play.
and by now, we shd be aware even defenders , let alone DMs can come forward for set plays

-------------

it is NOT karimi that we're talking about. names do not matter and you know that.
it is having a PLAYMAKER in that post.
now if karimi cant do it or isnt fit enough, well use another playmaker .

the principle stays the same.
--------------

again, you keep defense in mind and say this suits us.
yes ... when we're playing brazil.

but when we need to score goals and win?
again, the whole purpose of the thread is ignored or avoided !

--------------

no. it is not ONLY the formation.
there are many factors leading to that.
but just becoz we are not having great goal scorers it shd not mean we decide "lets make it EVEN MORE difficult to score or for us to win" !!!

try a more simplistic formation, that may relieve a little pressure off the strikers or front players and that may even lead to better performances.

but insisting on something we KNOW isnt helping in our scoring or winning games will NEVER result in some magical transformation of reality or fifa rules to suddenly allot 3 points to those teams that dont concede goals !

**yashar_fasihnia** · 06-12-2009, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

1- again, you either know what I'm saying and are avoiding it, or it just doesnt strike you;
common knowledge: knock-out stage needs different tactics and even draws can be wins.
in group games, a draw is only 1 point, 2 less than a win.
shd I be bringing up such basic, common knowledge stuff?
it's such a waste of time. I was this close to just ignore this post as irrelevant.

ok. so let me get this straight.

So u think sepahan actually had the ability to walk over the japanese and saudi arabian teams, but didnt and instead used different tactics to go for 0-0 draws and then win in penalties?

if they could have, they would have! its that simple! unless u wanna say luka was also spineless like pretty much every other coach that u have been correcting and finding their flaws with

and btw, sepahan also played 4-2-3-1 in the group stages, the same formation and tactics they used in the knock out rounds where a win was 3 points, a draw 1 point, and even more interesting, ONLY 1 TEAM ADVANCED FROM THE GROUP STAGE THOSE DAYS, WHICH MEANS THEY SHOULD BE EVEN MORE DESPERATE ANY PLAY WITH 4 STRIKERS AND NO DM's AT ALL TO WIN AS MANY GAMES AS POSSIBLE!

wats that metaphor u keep bringing up about "quick sand"?

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

2- again, you have avoided ( or havent understood ) the meaning of "attempting to play" which is very different from actually doing it.
in IPL we "pretend" to be playing it and this stays hidden coz we put our heads into the sand! our misery comes to surface when we face decent asian and international opposition which comes as a rude awakening.

ok, so first it was branko. then daei was added to the list. now ghotbi has also joined in. but wait, its not over yet, apparently IPL coaches are also making their way in this list of urs!

now its all IPL coaches as well, who are not in touch with reality and think that their team is doing their best? while doctor doom from behind his computer somewhere in the corner of the world, is busy finding the problems of both national team and IPL coaches!
our clubs who have all got good results with 4-2-3-1, should instead, change to 4-4-2 and then, they will get even better results!

wow, can u also please provide us the cure for cancer and AIDs while ur at it?

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

3- you can enlist in a cycling competition & make a worthy campaign out of it and stop "pretending" you have the drive or the car or the knowledge to enter a formula race.

yea, and then we can send someone worse than that person for our formula 1, because simply at the end of the day, SOMEONE HAS TO DO IT FOR US!
if not our best (who might be the worst on an international level), then we have to go with our 2nd best who is even worse on an international stage!

**Martin-Reza** · 06-12-2009, 11:23 AM

I really wonder if there is anyone in F+ still thinking anything Doctor DOOM says about tactics makes sense.

Doctor DOOM admitted himself to be someone who is not informed sufficiently on these issues and at the same time claims such knowledge is not needed when discussing tactics, because Iranian football is so specific, that completely other laws must be applied there than everywhere else in the world. He is someone who has admitted here to believe he is right on tactical issues and our coaches are plain wrong. Someone who thinks the solution to overcome an unstable defense which is "only saved by the goalkeeper" is to further destabilize it by playing an ultra-offensive formation used nowhere in the world, thinking just because you could simply call that 4-4-2 it's equal to what many experts developed as 4-4-2. Someone thinking balls (= huge risks) would be the solution to everything. Someone uninformed, populistic, ignorant towards existing theory (= the practically played systems) and over-confident.

Peyman, you are digging your own grave with the ridiculous claims you make in this forums repeatedly. Go educate yourself on tactics. It's not that it requires a rocket scientist to figure out the basics. As long as you refuse to study formations a bit, there is no sense that you engage in such discussions and no sense that those having studied them a bit bother discussing TM's tactics with you.

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