Ghotbi - Able coach or Smart Individual

[BehzadB]

Well, another issue we should discuss after having calmed down.

I must say the team looked defensively more organized during his short spell. There couldn't be expected much more in the end.

I think he's head and shoulders above all other Iranian coaches, but Daei was as well and it didn't really help, lol.

[zzgloo]

Agha Bahram.... I want to ask you a very simple question and I request a simple answer?


What Knowledge the North Korean coach has that an Iranian cannot learn and implement ?

Please....just this simple question...

Majid E Aziz .......
I take it my previouse reasonings were not satisfactory to you...which I also like to know your reasonings against it ......
Here is the answer to your question :

The North Koreans , and the South Koreans for that matter....are not doing well, neccessarly, because of thier coaches............

1- In case of South Korea,...They did exactly as they were expected, without anything special...nothing fancy....they got the result,the standard of football in Thier country ,and thier Efficient culture deserved, and not thier coach's savy work.

2-In the case of North Koreans....They also got the result of thier deciplined culture, with a little more effort, ( Due to the recent ivestments by thier Government )........They played the only game they knew, they even played the same style, in 1968.....it is a style no one plays in today's football,because it is not based on domination,and it is passive.......and I assure you,It will not surprize any one in South Africa,like it did in 1968.
...................
Summation : Our culture unlike south Koreans or North Koreans,has no deciplin,.It was us,who did not do as expected ,.......hence,we require a foreign coach,more than they do !


PS, All above, are my humble opinion,nothing more, nothing less........I claim no expertease. ( In case you were wondering !!!!!!!!!!!! )
PS # 2 ; God Bless You !

[zzgloo]

BTW: Is Afshin Ghotbi a local (Vatani) coach or a foreign coach ???



...




...

Majid jaan......Ghotbi is what we need.....................He is 80% Iranian 20% American.
You and I, have worked under western style manegment, and indeed know a thing or two by now.......and while, in the western world,we may not be so special,yet, our skills are going to do miracles in Iran...
If, Iran Khodro,for example hires you,as low level manager,I am sure, you will do great,and will increase the out put,and productivity.....
Or if they use me in a " NANVAEE ",( Bakery ), I will make it cleaner, and more efficient in short time...etc,.....
The level of management, is so low in Iran......that third class maneger in USA can out perform,top level manager in Iran......

That is what Ghotbi is......Nothing special in the west.....but, enough skill..and enough for Iran at this moment.

[maij]

Majid E Aziz .......
I take it my previouse reasonings were not satisfactory to you...which I also like to know your reasonings against it ......
Here is the answer to your question :

The North Koreans , and the South Koreans for that matter....are not doing well, neccessarly, because of thier coaches............

1- In case of South Korea,...They did exactly as they were expected, without anything special...nothing fancy....they got the result,the standard of football in Thier country ,and thier Efficient culture deserved, and not thier coach's savy work.

2-In the case of North Koreans....They also got the result of thier deciplined culture, with a little more effort, ( Due to the recent ivestments by thier Government )........They played the only game they knew, they even played the same style, in 1968.....it is a style no one plays in today's football,because it is not based on domination,and it is passive.......and I assure you,It will not surprize any one in South Africa,like it did in 1968.
...................
Summation : Our culture unlike south Koreans or North Koreans,has no deciplin,.It was us,who did not do as expected ,.......hence,we require a foreign coach,more than they do !


PS, All above, are my humble opinion,nothing more, nothing less........I claim no expertease. ( In case you were wondering !!!!!!!!!!!! )
PS # 2 ; God Bless You !

Bahram jan , it is not about whether your answer is satisfactory or not , we can discuss this in another thread or maybe even here at a later stage.(In fact I agree on your anyalysis on the Koreans) ..... My question is simple and straight forward one , and if you want to refrain from answering , then I am afraid my side of the discussion will be incomplete.

I want to know what secrets these kharji coaches have which our own cannot learn ?
as simple as that ....

[Paradigm]

Ghotbi will fix TM, given a little bit of time. He is the best possible coach for Iran now. I trust my instincts on this !

By the way we did not qualify to the World Cup almost entirely because of Daie's mismanaging the national squad, and loss to KSA in Azadi.

[maij]

Majid jaan......Ghotbi is what we need.....................He is 80% Iranian 20% American.
You and I, have worked under western style manegment, and indeed know a thing or two by now.......and while, in the western world,we may not be so special,yet, our skills are going to do miracles in Iran...
If, Iran Khodro,for example hires you,as low level manager,I am sure, you will do great,and will increase the out put,and productivity.....
Or if they use me in a " NANVAEE ",( Bakery ), I will make it cleaner, and more efficient in short time...etc,.....
The level of management, is so low in Iran......that third class maneger in USA can out perform,top level manager in Iran......

That is what Ghotbi is......Nothing special in the west.....but, enough skill..and enough for Iran at this moment.

[maij]

Actually, I work as an agent for an interational agency and have been directly or indirectly involved with some transfers to or from Iran.

http://www.ctssmi.com/aboutus.htm

I have enough knowledge to know that we cannot compare Iranian coaches to the likes of Japanese and Korean. Before being allowed to coach in Japan, one has to take professional classes, seminars. The Japanese FA sends their candidates to different countries such as Brail, France, Italy or Spain etc etc and then, they usualy start from the youth teams and work themsleves up in a professional environment, putting their knowledge against some of the best coaches in the region. Thats how it works in Japan. In Iran, a guy like Mansourian can take over PAS and someone like Samad can take over Esteghlal with minimum knowledge and experince, theoretical and practical.

So, therefore, one cannot say that if Japan and Korea can get results from domestic coaches so can.

1- The fact that you think that your knowledge of football is limitless , does not mean that the others do not know about football.

2- Your job, does not qualify you to be an authority in football knowledge.

3- There is something called an "Opinion" and something called "Fact" , try to understand the meanings and don't confuse between them.

NOW....In Iran Coaching classes have been conducted , before Japan realized that football is actually not Oval . In fact , the most famous of them all " Agha Heshamt Mohajerani" attended many of them inside and outside Iran and I am talking about at least 3 decades ago.

I don't know if you can read Farsi . but if you look through the online papers , you can read about the many coaching courses conducted by FIFA or AFC in Iran.

FYI: Samad Marfavi has coaching certifacate and attended several courses. I am not sure about Mansourian , I suspect he did attend a course but I don't know if he is licensed.

Getting a 100% garde in a FIFA Class "A" coaching course , does not necessarily means that you wioll win the league

[xoraster]

1- The fact that you think that your knowledge of football is limitless , does not mean that the others do not know about football.

2- Your job, does not qualify you to be an authority in football knowledge.

3- There is something called an "Opinion" and something called "Fact" , try to understand the meanings and don't confuse between them.

NOW....In Iran Coaching classes have been conducted , before Japan realized that football is actually not Oval . In fact , the most famous of them all " Agha Heshamt Mohajerani" attended many of them inside and outside Iran and I am talking about at least 3 decades ago.

I don't know if you can read Farsi . but if you look through the online papers , you can read about the many coaching courses conducted by FIFA or AFC in Iran.

FYI: Samad Marfavi has coaching certifacate and attended several courses. I am not sure about Mansourian , I suspect he did attend a course but I don't know if he is licensed.

Getting a 100% garde in a FIFA Class "A" coaching course , does not necessarily means that you wioll win the league

Shoma dorost migi,

Marfavi ham klass dareje aval rafte va klass haie FIFA ham dar Iran hame khob va aali hastan.

Ba sepas.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

Well, another issue we should discuss after having calmed down.

I must say the team looked defensively more organized during his short spell. There couldn't be expected much more in the end.

I think he's head and shoulders above all other Iranian coaches, but Daei was as well and it didn't really help, lol.

WELL SAID!

[mehdy]

Maybe Ghotbi is good option than Mayeli Kohan,but Ebrahimizadeh is more better.

[Martin-Reza]

I want to know what secrets these kharji coaches have which our own cannot learn ?
as simple as that ....

What do they foreign players have which our players can't learn?

Without defining exactly the knowledge they have and Iranians have not, it is clear that it comes from being used to professional working from youngest age. It comes from working with the best of the best over years. It comes from being challenged by the best of the best regulary, forcing them to improve in every aspect daily and never stop learning, adapting and refining.

Why are American firms internationally more successful than Iranian firms? They are because of better education and fierce competition forcing them to optimize everything constantly.

That is why in the end you get amazing coaches from Europe and crap coaches in Iran, better education and steady improvement. Those who don't, can't survive there, while they do in Iran.

[xoraster]

What do they foreign players have which our players can't learn?

Without defining exactly the knowledge they have and Iranians have not, it is clear that it comes from being used to professional working from youngest age. It comes from working with the best of the best over years. It comes from being challenged by the best of the best regulary, forcing them to improve in every aspect daily and never stop learning, adapting and refining.

Why are American firms internationally more successful than Iranian firms? They are because of better education and fierce competition forcing them to optimize everything constantly.

That is why in the end you get amazing coaches from Europe and crap coaches in Iran, better education and steady improvement. Those who don't, can't survive there, while they do in Iran.

Well said, but the question was not that clever to start with.
So what is the point of the writer? Is he asking what Lippi, Capello, Frguson and Wenger have that Ebrahimzadeh, MK and GN dont?

[zzgloo]

Bahram jan , it is not about whether your answer is satisfactory or not , we can discuss this in another thread or maybe even here at a later stage.(In fact I agree on your anyalysis on the Koreans) ..... My question is simple and straight forward one , and if you want to refrain from answering , then I am afraid my side of the discussion will be incomplete.

I want to know what secrets these kharji coaches have which our own cannot learn ?
as simple as that ....

Majid Jaan, ...
I offered a plan,which asks for 3 years of western style Ghotbi magenement,and later high powered foreign coach.....then ....
Your first question was, how was it that Domestic coaches succeeded in the Koreas, to which I answered..... which you seemed to agree
And your new question is " " What secrets these khareji coaches have our own cannot learn ? "..............................
While, Martin's answer is a very good one to your question, I will add my view to it as well.....,which in a way, it may also answer your comments about managerial skills of Iranians.......

Management, is not just set of Knowledge !, as you I am sure already know....
The fact, that we have slower football, is not because our players run the 100 meter dash,any less than foreign players......!!!
The fact that our factory level managers have low productivity,does not mean ,the Iranian managers are less educated or less imformed, or less smart....in fact, on an avarage, Iranians,IMHO,are very smart people..!!!

The problem is with, lack self motivations !, lack of attention to details,and
lack of " Fear of getting fired " ,and lack of accountability, and lack of Effort within the culture.......

Just look at, how Daei did not work with the defense to work of " Rebounds ",and we lost the first game vs South Korea,....Look at how daei thought , one assistant coach was enough !!!!
Just look at most our players, pass the ball to get rid of responsibility,or after the pass stop moveing !!!!,.....or within a factory, if a worker comes to work late,is no problwm, or if work is done wrong,there is no consiquestences......
In IRIB, we have had screen manger, which for important football games, it always starts tha games late, or does not show the kick off.....this has continued for the last 10 years,and he has not been changed for lack of understanding of the magnitude of managerial importance.......
In all types ......it is as though, an " OOPS ", is enough, and then life goes on............................
A Good foreign coach, other than haveing more up to date of knowledge of today's football, other than haveing been tested and competed in a higly competetive managerial system,and obtaining good results....because of his " Self Motivation ", ............to this foreign coach " OOPS " is not an option.
In USA,NFL league players,play as if thier mothers' life is dependent on the play.....in Iran, well !!!!!!!you have seen it......the level of efforts are very different in Important games to regular league games....and once in a year effort,keeps all lazy,and " Flujo " as Spanish people say !
In today's Iran, we could use a manager who has western standards,and foreign to local system....we could use a manager who thinks out side of local acceptance........
Ghotbi, while less than Ideal credentials, is still avangard within Iran.....that is why he won the championship on his forst year !!!,that is an insult to all Local coaches !,is n't it !!!!!!!!??????????? ....and the reason he did less on his secound year, was because, he did not have the authurity requried to " Kick Ass "................In TM coaching level.....He will !
The TM , playing the last 3 games, was more cohesive and in tune,that all Daei's coahced games......TM had better personel,and better chamistry under Ghotbi ,just in 3 games, and despite a Ghotbi being 6 mounths out of job..........
In total : " LENGE KAFSH DAR BIABAN GHANIMAT AST " !
God Bless.

[zzgloo]

They killing our people !

I know, we have general forum,..yet, I thought may be we in F+ should have some discussions about what is going on in street of our cities, as we speak.

Some differences, today's upriseings has with demostrations of 30 years ago, is the level of maturity shown by demostrators as well as level of female participation.........almost 50% are women, and some of them have already been Martyered.....such as " Neda ", which the video of her loseing life, and blood comeing out of her mouth on the street was shown by many broadcasts.......
I feel , ashamed, that they are fighting against these Murdereres, all by themselves, without any suport ,without any wepons,without any reports...
as if, they have left the wolves in the Hen house......
" Marg bar Jomhorieh Eslami " !
.................................................. ..............................................

PS, I thought,I was openneing a new thread, but I made a mistake , and this was posted here,in this thread....well, I hope a " Mod ", could help and seperate this !..with thanks.

[maij]

What do they foreign players have which our players can't learn?

Without defining exactly the knowledge they have and Iranians have not, it is clear that it comes from being used to professional working from youngest age. It comes from working with the best of the best over years. It comes from being challenged by the best of the best regulary, forcing them to improve in every aspect daily and never stop learning, adapting and refining.

Why are American firms internationally more successful than Iranian firms? They are because of better education and fierce competition forcing them to optimize everything constantly.

That is why in the end you get amazing coaches from Europe and crap coaches in Iran, better education and steady improvement. Those who don't, can't survive there, while they do in Iran.

Ghorboon dahanet......


IT is NOT that Iranians (players , coaches or Managers) are not as good or cannot not reach the standard of the Europeans, they very well can and even excel.
Frankly , in the whole of European league , you would be very pushed to find more than a few players with the skills and Ability of Ali Karimi ( Only if he .....) . Skills or artistic excellence are not a monopoly of a certain race.


....but to achieve that , it requires organization , systems , infra structure , discipline and too many other factors to mention. I your system is not good enough in any field , be it education , arts , sports ...) then don't expect to produce exception or even high average skil ful players......

BUT....... You cannot buy the European success and environment overnight.
You cannot fill Iran with highly paid European coaches . Some little rich countries can afford that and gain some good results , but not Iran.

I have no big issue about employing a quality European coach , but that is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH to develop football in Iran.

You don't need a calculator ....... just follow this scenario :
How many days a year (or a season_ Team Melli can gather and train by the coach ? Considering that at best , the coach cannot have all the players for more than a week or let us say 2 weeks for major tournaments such as Asian Cup. For a friendly , the coach is lucky if he gets all his players specially the legionnaires , for one practice session......
SO, taking this little scenario into consideration .....what huge /great/ shattering effect a coach will have on the team ???

If the player lacks fundamental skills and professional mentality like playing in a team as a unit rather than an individual , How effective is Mr. Coach in changing such mentality ?


....and we shall continue......