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**maij** · 07-02-2009, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

majid jan, if I were actually given the responsibility of TM and then I had failed, then I'd as soon shut my trap and wouldnt dare open my mouth criticizing others.
THAT is the difference here.

and yes, "fail".
simple math:
6 points off 5 games ... out of a total of 15 = 1.2 points per game!!!!
THAT is absolutely and irrefutably indefensible and is abject FAILURE.

we can go back & forth over where, how, which game, who .... but we BOTH know it was a miserable failure.
the difference is one of us doesnt want to admit to it for whatever reason we may have, be it friendship or whatnot.

Agha Peyman , as a professional you know very well that the term failure , means a failure to achieve a given target, or if used in a project management , a failure to progress as per the plan. A student fails when he can not achieve the passing mark defined by the school. A teacher fails if certain % of his students (defined by the school) do not pass the exam.
A pilot fails when he cannot execute certain maneuvers in the simulator and the list is far too long ...

In all those examples , there are two fundamental requirements.
1) Identification/Definition of Pass mark or grade AND
2) Allowing the candidate to complete his task/test.

Real Life Example: A pilot examiner was sacked from training post, because he failed a Captain in the simulator check ride (competency test) and did not endorse his license to fly, without allowing this Captain to finish his maneuver and by ending the simulator check session prematurely!

If IFF or Afazeli's bosses , had what you refer to as a simple math , as an objective or a target or even a progress meter , then YES he failed , because he did not achieve more than 6 points out of possible 15 like the IFF required him to do.

BTW: Even when the Saudi Prince "da man himself" sacked Nasser Al Jawhar and installed the Khareji coach , he never mentioned the word failure or not reaching the target when referring to Al Jawhar.

How sure were you that Afazeli would not have got all the 9 points in three games ???

This is the professional and proper method of dealing with the subject of failure, now if you or others want to move the post or re-define success or failure according to their own tastes and preferences , then it is entirely another matter.......then we have to go into the domain of ..."My Father's watch is more expensive that your father's "

**Behrooz** · 07-02-2009, 05:54 PM

Dear Maij,

Why are you making things so complicated?.

Ghotbi promised to take Iran to WC and he failed.

In other words, he did not achieve his goal, and therefore he failed.

**kaz** · 07-02-2009, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by maij View Post

FAIL ???????????????????????????????

HUH...... Define FAIL .

Fail in what ???

How can you accuse him of FAILING while he never got the chance to finish the job ? He had 3 matches to go , that is 9 possible points !!! If he did not achieve the target , which was reaching the WC , then you can safely say that he failed.

Failure in essence means NOT achieving the target. How can you fail a person , if you kick him out of the exam prematurely ?

OK...I know that some people over have a conviction that they posses some divine power of prediction , I like to count these out and stick to the average Joe. You can not label him a failure, no Sir.

BTW: How come you pick on every man that plays or manages in football , but get so upset when someone else does a Dr. Doom?

Majid khan, are you now actually trying to re-define failure? Please, your stance on the whole Daei tenure was a farce and transparent to boot.

Daei (and Afazeli with him) failed miserably. In fact, they were doing so bad that they weren't even given the dignity to fail completely.

A student who fails to pass every exam, doesn't study, is not going to turn up on the most important exam and suddenly get 80%.

**Martin-Reza** · 07-03-2009, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by kaz View Post

Majid khan, are you now actually trying to re-define failure? Please, your stance on the whole Daei tenure was a farce and transparent to boot.
Daei (and Afazeli with him) failed miserably. In fact, they were doing so bad that they weren't even given the dignity to fail completely.
A student who fails to pass every exam, doesn't study, is not going to turn up on the most important exam and suddenly get 80%.

Majeed is absoultely right. You can't take away the exam from a student after he did bad in the first half, when he still has the chance to pass with a good second half of the exam and say he failed to pass it.

It might be likely he fails or it might be a good idea to replace him (if that is possible like in coaching lol), but you can't say he failed if he still ahd the chance and you didn't let him take his chance.

Or to take your example, yes, he might go there and get 80%. You can't forbid him to take the most important exam and then claim he failed to pass it.

You are mixing likelihood with fact here and while barely anyone will disagree that the likelihood Daei & Co. would still have turned things around, especially under the panic and hate that broke out among fans and media, was not very high, as a matter of fact they actually did not fail.

It even still was in there own hands, and we didn't even had to depend on other results at the time he was fired. He was disallowed to try to accomplish a heavy mission, probably rightfully, but that didn't make him fail.

**maij** · 07-03-2009, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by kaz View Post

Majid khan, are you now actually trying to re-define failure? Please, your stance on the whole Daei tenure was a farce and transparent to boot.

Daei (and Afazeli with him) failed miserably. In fact, they were doing so bad that they weren't even given the dignity to fail completely.

A student who fails to pass every exam, doesn't study, is not going to turn up on the most important exam and suddenly get 80%.

Agha Kaz.

If you want to debate and discuss with me , take this hood of obsession called Ali Daei from you face and come back , else I have no interest in any debate.... Peyman is more than a handful , thank you.

**maij** · 07-03-2009, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Behrooz View Post

Dear Maij,

Why are you making things so complicated?.

Ghotbi promised to take Iran to WC and he failed.

In other words, he did not achieve his goal, and therefore he failed.

Thank you very much........That is much simpler and right to the point...HOWEVER , if it came from me , they would jump on my back accusing me of bias an all sort of other accusations....

**BehzadB** · 07-03-2009, 09:02 AM

ghobti and daie failed. Both of them.

Ghotbi failed in getting 6 points from 3 games, Daie failed in getting enough points to keep his job..(6 out of 15 points is 40%).. and because they both did their "failure" in the same tourney , they both share the blame for Iran not making it to the WC.. obviously, 40% of the points in the last 3 games wouldn't have given daie's team enough points to advance.

If we really want to get into the root causes as to why we didn't make to the WC we have to go up and down our football system (which we don't need to as we all know all about it)..

but if we want to take one game, I think the KSA game was the most costly one.. we were playing at home; up on our opponent and we gave up all 3 points and gave 3 points to KSA.. that game really put us in a huge hole.. I doubt Daie or any other coach would have been able to make up for that with "tactics" against NK and SK, away..

the only thing that could have helped us get out of that hole was a little luck, which didn't come our way.. Shojaie hitting the post against NK and Shojaie missing point blank from 2 meters out against SK.. NK and KSA players missing point blank shots against each other..

I think our TM, as it stood, didn't really deserve the WC.. and that is the saddest truth, for me.

**maij** · 07-03-2009, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Martin-Reza View Post

Majeed is absoultely right. You can't take away the exam from a student after he did bad in the first half, when he still has the chance to pass with a good second half of the exam and say he failed to pass it.

It might be likely he fails or it might be a good idea to replace him (if that is possible like in coaching lol), but you can't say he failed if he still ahd the chance and you didn't let him take his chance.

Or to take your example, yes, he might go there and get 80%. You can't forbid him to take the most important exam and then claim he failed to pass it.

You are mixing likelihood with fact here and while barely anyone will disagree that the likelihood Daei & Co. would still have turned things around, especially under the panic and hate that broke out among fans and media, was not very high, as a matter of fact they actually did not fail.

It even still was in there own hands, and we didn't even had to depend on other results at the time he was fired. He was disallowed to try to accomplish a heavy mission, probably rightfully, but that didn't make him fail.

Thank Martin Jan .
To enhance the debate about success or failure of Human Afazeli, a rational and proficient appraisal system will take the overall performance of a person NOT a selected part of.

Let us take a look at Daei/Afazeli records

Overall (all matches)

P 25

W 16

D 6

L 3

GF 44

GA 15

GD 29

Official

P 16

W 9

D 6

L 1

GF 32

GA 10

GD 22

Overall winning percentage of 64.0%
Overall winning percentage of 56.3%

The duo have lost grand total of ONE match in SIXTEEN official competition and including friendlies , they lost THREE out of 25 matches. To add substance, considering both official and overall matches , the team goal scoring & goal difference is something that any coach will be proud of.

**zzgloo** · 07-03-2009, 09:17 AM

Majid Jaan.....
Thanks for your post......
Four things stand out in your post....

1- You do not mind prolonging discussions.
2-Mr.Afazeli is your friend,and a cofounder of PFDC.
3-You prefer payman over Ghotbi.
4-Your position on " Facts,view points,opinions " were less than convinsing,subjective,and foreign ,to Iranian culture.

Those points makes us to be very different on the issue at hand.
.................................................. ............................
PS, ...It is very hard to make friends through syber space, as intentions values,and sole of the individuals do not get through ,by spanteniues ,some times wrong spelling,heat of the moment , written words.
....My conclusion, through 5 years of experince here....is to love all, and give benefit of the doubt,as much as possible .......we are all good people here,and require companionship in love of football, and everyday life.....
It will be ideal, to accomidate all,and be true to self .

**Doctor DOOM** · 07-03-2009, 09:28 AM

LOL.

I cant beleive I'm actually arguing this simple matter and that there are ppl who say if some fellow is failing in his tasks, we shd allow him to continue his failures till the end!!

hahahahahaha
it's more hilarious than tragic ( now that we're eliminated from the WC ) !

you want to go north and ur guide is taking you south.
you want to continue going south with the delusion of somehow south would become north all of a sudden?
or would you change guides and try someone else and NOT GO FURTHER AWAY FROM THE TARGET?

yes, it is as simple as this.
I cant believe we're actually debating such common sensical issues

-----------

and you have millions of examples to prove this simple logic.

look at saudis.
they saw their first guide is taking them to the wrong direction and they changed their guide.
and voila!
they corrected course and actually qualified.

LOL and you want me to believe if you ppl were in charge of saudi fed'n you'd have persisted with jowhar?
hahahahahaha

I can understand the zeal to defend one's idol and hero.
but we must not forget logic either, in the process.

=================================

if I am to allot the share of blame on both coaches, I must say daei shd bear the brunt of it, ... far more than ghotbi.

-apart from having 5 games against 3 games.

- and getting 40% success, vs. ghotbi's 55%

- daei also had 3 HOME games, vs ghotbi's 1

-remember the last 3 games also were done in a murderous tight schedule and end of season with tired players and .... etc.
while daei's games were adequately spaced apart and during the season, meaning better physical conditioning of players.

yes, BOTH failed. but daei's portion in this failure is at least 65-70% .

**maij** · 07-03-2009, 10:18 AM

Peyman Aziz...

At least you made it clear where we stand in this discussion.....

I actually thought that you will come up with a more presentable, digestible, reasonable and palatable argument for the term "Failure". Instead , you are back to “Dr. Dooms Rules” , or “I-make-up-the-rules” , “You-follow” or I will LOL !

Enjoy your LOL ...

**maij** · 07-03-2009, 10:48 AM