Iran - Jordan (Azadi)

[Doctor DOOM]

^ You've not answered straight. You talking more around such issues in order to avoid making a clear statement. At least that is my impression. It would be good if you summed up your points more precisely sometimes, especially in this regard.

yes, I HAVE answered (actually said them before your questioning them).
it is not my fault if you dont read them.

so to answer you yes, we dont have the right players for this formation who could perform the correct tasks needed within its framework, especially in offensive games where we need to score goals and win.
and that has been discussed 1823987 times before. so I'm not going to keep repeating this just becoz you instead of revisiting all those threads and posts, feel like asking the questions again n again.
it doesnt convince you?
oh well .... tough. but I'm not going to waste my time repeating the same things over n over.

the only bit that needed to be added (about other teams perhaps having the elements and therefore applying it .... ) was added in my previous post

==============

much like bahram jan who asks the very same things that have been said earlier.
and I'm just not as patient as before, to sit down and write para after para.
so plz refer to previous page as well as all those threads of the final weeks of WCQ's

cheers

[zzgloo]

yes, I HAVE answered (actually said them before your questioning them).
it is not my fault if you dont read them.

yes, we dont have the right players for this formation who could perform the correct tasks needed within its framework, especially in offensive games where we need to score goals and win.
and that has been discussed 1823987 times before. so I'm not going to keep repeating this just becoz you instead of revisiting all those threads and posts, feel like asking the questions again n again.
it doesnt convince you?
oh well .... tough. but I'm not going to waste my time repeating the same things over n over.

the only bit that needed to be added (about other teams perhaps having the elements and therefore applying it .... ) was added in my previous post

==============

much like bahram jan who asks the very same things that have been said earlier.
and I'm just not as patient as before, to sit down and write para after para.
so plz refer to previous page as well as all those threads of the final weeks of WCQ's

cheers

Payman Jaan......Although,I have always been fan of yours...and in general you do have a good football mind, and usually explain different issues in football well............But, I remember you yourself once admited, you can not " Capsulate " your thoughts, and you tend to " Over explain ", and run over issues !
I know, you have gotten tired explaining often..........but for the sake of finishing this issue on this particular thread.......try to explain,as Martin Reza suggest, ( In only three short,sentences,10 word length each why,TM does not deserve 4-2-3-1, while this system is used by whole wide different talent levels of so many countries.
We are all smart people here, just like you.....we do not require,long explanations......( FE BEGI MIRIM FARAH ZAD

[Martin-Reza]

yes, I HAVE answered (actually said them before your questioning them).
it is not my fault if you dont read them.

yes, we dont have the right players for this formation who could perform the correct tasks needed within its framework, especially in offensive games where we need to score goals and win.
and that has been discussed 1823987 times before. so I'm not going to keep repeating this just becoz you instead of revisiting all those threads and posts, feel like asking the questions again n again.
it doesnt convince you?
oh well .... tough. but I'm not going to waste my time repeating the same things over n over.

the only bit that needed to be added (about other teams perhaps having the elements and therefore applying it .... ) was added in my previous post

==============

much like bahram jan who asks the very same things that have been said earlier.
and I'm just not as patient as before, to sit down and write para after para.
so plz refer to previous page as well as all those threads of the final weeks of WCQ's

cheers

Well, I summed up your beliefs as I understood them in 3 simple points, a clear and direct yes or no if I got you right would be helpful. In case of no, a short specification which point you don't agree with and why, would be appreciated.

That really won't waste too much of your precious time, I suppose.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ made it "bold" in case u missed it again

[Ali Chicago]

After reading many of the threads (although not all of them), it seems to me the whole argument can be summed up as the followings:

Any footballing system (assuming a team has the players for that system) can be good. If a team doesn't have players for that system, no matter how so called Modern it is, won't be beneficial. In 4-2-3-1 certain type of players are needed. We can argue if Neko and Ando are a good 2 DMs? Or if Iran had the tools (players) for a 4-4-2 diamond that TM played under Ali Daie.

While I can't deny that 4-2-3-1 is a newer system compared to say 3-5-2, but this doesn't mean all the teams need to play 4-2-3-1. A team has to choose its formation based on the type of players it has IMO, not the other way around.

There are two school of thoughts in soccer as far as formations goes. One is a coach chooses a formation and then goes and select players who are usefual in that formation. Another thought is, choose the top players and then select a system based on the players you got. I prefer the second school of thought.

One last thing about Yashar's post where he argues SS in AFC with 3-5-2 only got two drwas. I think that is reaching. Can you be sure, had SS played 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 results would have been different?

Compare SS and Sepahan right now. SS has Ruth Muller who is a FIFA instructor for gods sake and coached in Bundesliga. GN is from Nazi Abad and had limited coaching classes in Bayren levercuzen. GN with his 3-5-2 and 4-4-2 is ahead of SS who has Muller. I don't conclude this means 3-5-2 or 4-2-3-1. I am merely saying this whole technical discussion about merits of this vs. that formation is more academic and not as important as many of us think.

Look at Iran's team in WC98. Ivitch is removed like 3 weeks before the finals. With Jalal Talebi as heah coach, Abedzadeh injured and Nima Nakisa a newbie and inexperienced, a very slow and not well coordinated defense (Nadar Mohammad Khani is being called back again after few years), Iran plays very well against Youguslavia and US in good old 3-5-2. Why? Because Iran WC 98 team had the good tools for 3-5-2. Young Kia and Minavand at that time were among the best for two wing type players.

Bottom line, Iran needs to play 4-2-3-1 if we have the tools (players). With even two forwards (our forwards don't have the quality to get the job done) never mind with 1 forward. I know you will say the 3 midfilders are supposed to join in attack and all. But we are talking about Iranian players who aren't tactically well suited. Anyhow I think I made my point.

Have a great weekend.

[zzgloo]

[QUOTE=Ali Chicago;1495897] In 4-2-3-1 certain type of players are needed. QUOTE]
Ali Jaan......., What makes you so certain that is the case ?.......
and what makes you say, the other systems do not, and only this one requires certain players.......
You and Payman,pass this stage of explaining so fast, and get to other parts of explaining............,as if it is so obviouse,....it may be to you, but not to all....
No system, in football ,..is conditional.....other wise, it would have been called strategy,not system.

[Martin-Reza]

^ made it "bold" in case u missed it again

Ok, the way I understood it, the three points above are correct in your opinion.

[BehzadB]

It's nice to see MR and DD discussing formation.. for only the second million time.

I agree with Ali Chicago that it's a combination of players and formation.

personally I think formations (systems) are overrated. Remember that Spanish coach (the guy that came to Iran for like a week, and left and didn't take the job), When Adel Ferdousi pour asked him what formation he would set his team up, he replied "Who has the ball?"

that should explain everything about formation.

[yashar_fasihnia]

One last thing about Yashar's post where he argues SS in AFC with 3-5-2 only got two drwas. I think that is reaching. Can you be sure, had SS played 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 results would have been different?

precisely my point and i totally agree with this formation discussions being overblown specially since its the millionth time people are openning such threads and bringing up the same discussions and its the same arguments, same examples, same theories over and over again.

can anyone else be sure that had Ghotbi played 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 in the qualifiers or even recent matches, the results would have been different (or better for that matter)?

we have seen good and bad results for both, so to say something like 4-2-3-1 has been a repeated failure and doesnt suit iranian football is not a legitimate argument AT ALL, specially without enough solid statistics and proof!

this is nothing more than a simple "Grass is greener on the other side" scenario.

[Martin-Reza]

^ absolutely. The differences are often so minimal that you could call it 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 without even being wrong.

For example just recently Otto Rehagel complained on German TV that he was blamed for only using 1 striker by some newspaper, but said the journalist obviously doesn't know the players, because Greece is actually always playing with 3 strikers.

Of it's a matter of taste if you interprete a system as one-striker-system or two- or three-striker system.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ ???

اوتو ره هاگل سرمربي71 ساله تيم*ملي فوتبال يونان گفت: هر وقت مسي يوناني شد ،حمله هم مي*كنيم !

[faraz]

Aghayoon, long time - i've been reading these for some time now now and I doubt any coach is so particular when it comes to formations...who the heck can really distinguish between a bunch of formations that are all really the same anyway...

The point of the matter is, we relied too heavily in the past on our 'golden era' players (Kia, Daei, Bagheri, Azizi, etc.) and simply do not have players of their quality to even finish in a qualifying spot in a group where in the past, we easily could have.

imo - we have to wait for a couple of more saviours to come up the footballing ranks before we have any chance of succeeding. with these players, you can forget about it.

i predict a draw in Amman.

[Ali Chicago]

[QUOTE=zzgloo;1496009]

In 4-2-3-1 certain type of players are needed. QUOTE]
Ali Jaan......., What makes you so certain that is the case ?.......
and what makes you say, the other systems do not, and only this one requires certain players.......
You and Payman,pass this stage of explaining so fast, and get to other parts of explaining............,as if it is so obviouse,....it may be to you, but not to all....
No system, in football ,..is conditional.....other wise, it would have been called strategy,not system.

Bahram Jaan,

I didn't say in other systems you don't need the certian type of players. If you read my post, you see I mentioned having two good winger like Kia and Minavand (for a 3-5-2) in WC 98. EVERY SYSTEM NEEDS CERTIAN TYPE OF PLAYERS.

For example in 4-2-3-1 the centerforward role is well defined. The centerforward in this system (based on limited reading I have done), is a players who is great in the air, can bring the ball down, hold on to the ball, under pressure until the 3 supporting midfielder add up. On top of it he has great sense of positioning in order to situate himself well on blind spots of the defense (since there is one classic forward in this system). Does Iran has some one with those qualities? Is Ansarifard, Borhani, Maydavoodi, Khatatbari, Gholamreza Rezai, even Hashemian any of them fits the bill? My opinion is no.

Every other 9 positions need certian type of characterristics in the players who play in the respective posts.

To reiterate every system requires having certian type of players. If the team doesn't have those type of players who fits the classic description and still insist to play certain system has underutilized its resources (to say the least), if not that coach is either inexperienced or making a huge mistake.

[Ali Chicago]

precisely my point and i totally agree with this formation discussions being overblown specially since its the millionth time people are openning such threads and bringing up the same discussions and its the same arguments, same examples, same theories over and over again.
can anyone else be sure that had Ghotbi played 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 in the qualifiers or even recent matches, the results would have been different (or better for that matter)?
we have seen good and bad results for both, so to say something like 4-2-3-1 has been a repeated failure and doesnt suit iranian football is not a legitimate argument AT ALL, specially without enough solid statistics and proof!
this is nothing more than a simple "Grass is greener on the other side" scenario.

I agree with your post whole heartedly. Our football at senior level is going downhill pretty fast. There are lots of things wrong, many of them much more important than 4-2-3-1 vs. 3-5-2. if we solved those, then we may need to worry more about tactical efficiency of 4-2-3-1 vs. 3-5-2.

[yashar_fasihnia]

thank god shojaei was not there yesterday and he was busy scoring against valencia ON A HEADER (somethine he apparently sux in), so we cant use him as a scape goat and blame him for our failure!

thank god mobali started and played for wat, 60 minutes until the point even the commentator was frustrated and eventually said mobali needs to be subbed out! thank god, he played in his natural position, as attaking midfielder in the center of the field, and we saw the "NUMEROUS" left and right footed shots he took all on goal and all the threats he caused with his shots on goal, so we cant blame TM's failure on his exclusion! and before some try to deviate and say others like khalatbari and heydari didnt do anything better, i will say i totally agree and they sucked too, but all this fuss over the years wasnt made over the exclusion of these other players as it was made to mobali.
so can we now agree that mobali is just another talented iranian player but nothing extra ordinary???

and by god its frustrating to see beygzadeh play. he is just a huge mass of muscles and bones with slow legs and even a slower head who just puts his head down and "tries to" run to overtake his man and causes a turn over everytime!

so i guess now we can put all the blame on the system being 4-2-3-1!

but atleast for now, once again, it is proven that inclusion of shojaei as our striker or exclusion of mobali from the team doesnt turn things around 180 degrees!

soon, we will also see that 4-2-3-1 is not the major reason for TM's failures and i hope we finally learn to stop looking for such superficial reasons to either deliberatly or unknowingly put down coaches and create so much noise!