A tactical question

[Martin-Reza]

Ok, we recently conceded the same goal repeatedly.

A cross from the right to the far post, where Kaebi has to mark a target striker and of course he heads it in.

We actually had the same problems without Kaebi recently as well.

The second goal by Qatar was similar, only that it was Beikzadeh this time, who despite being 189cm tall was unable to win the duel in the air.

We almost conceded the same goal again today from the other side, when Feshangchi let the high ball through and we were lucky Mali couldn't convert.

Now the point is, there are many teams with small fullbacks who are not really good in the air. A prominent example would be Bayern Munich and Germany, who have a world class fullback in Phillip Lahm, who is small (170 cm) and weak in the air as well.

However, they barely concede such goals and my impression is not that Lahm is much better in the air than Kaebi, but that you barely ever see him having to go into such areal battles.

How do they do that?

Ok, here is the situation:

Normal fourback:

------------------------------xxxxxxxGOALxxxxxxx--------------------------------
-----Rightback---------Centreback-----------Centreback-------------Leftback----

Fourback when defending on the left (shifting to the left):

----------------------------------xxxxxxxGOALxxxxxxx-----------------------------------
----------------------------Rightback--------Centreback-------Centreback-----Leftback

Of course this doesn't always happen, sometimes midfielders help out, but often such a shift is not avoidable and then the rightback suddenly covers the far post. Now if a striker like Pandev or Dzeko moves to the far post, he will find himself paired up with the rightback, and if that's a small guy, a good cross means a great chance to score.

As said, Germany and Bayern know to avoid that, but I didn't really figure out how yet.

Is it because they avoid the shift of the fourback by help of the side midfielders?

Is it because they have defensive midfielders helping out in central defense so the fullbacks don't have to mark near the goal?

Is it because the second central defender man marks the taller guy in the box instead of zonal marking and simply covering the guy nearer to him? Or does the central defender automatically go to the far post?

Any other suggestions?

I think the main difference is the right centreback in that scenario. I have the feeling in those goal situations our defenders didn't turn around to have a look at the far post. They mostly didn't mark anyone anyway, but didn't bother to check if they could mark someone instead of marking empty space. I guess there might be a complete misunderstanding of zonal marking, which doesn't mean you mark a zone, but rather that you don't statically mark a man but that you "hand him over" to another defender if that is savely possible, as soon as he leaves "your zone".

[zzgloo]

I do not claim to know ,the answer to your suffisticated question.....
What I do ,how ever, can offer, is how this is done in American Football ( NFL ).....and while payman keeps telling me,it is irrelevent.....but, I remember, Klinsman,the German Coach did not think so !!!!
I assume, since you live in Europe,do not know or appreciate NFL ,yet I like you to see with open mid,if it makes sence :
........
In NFL,...instead of :

....Right back.......Right Center.....Left center.....Left Back.........

The have :

...Right back.......Free safty.......Strong safty.....Left Back.......

......................

Free safty = Helps which ever corner Back that the attack is toward.
Strong safty = Is more stable in the center.
.............................
Mean while, instead of defensive midfileds, they have weakside,and strong side Linebackers........
.............................
The Idea Behind the flexiblity of the defensive players is that ,the opposing offenses, try to have a game plan, based on ( Creating Mis-matches )...that is to say, asign a faster forward on the slower defensive player, or a taller Forward against a shorter defender, and so on.......

[yashar_fasihnia]

1)the role of the GK is being underestimated here.
iran hasnt had one GK who can make good decisions on exiting on high balls while germany is a world class GK producing nation. the communication and coordination between GK and defenders during the game itself is very minimal in iran compared to germany.
generally, crosses on the 2nd post are for the GK to clear because the ball has to travel more distance and hence there is more time for the GK to make an exit and punch it away.
if the cross is on the first post, then the 2 CBs (in the scenario above) can head it away.
keep in mind that it is much easier for a GK to run from the 2nd post to 1st post for a punch or a dive because he just has to run forward, but running from 1st post to 2nd post requires turning around and then running, or just running backwards which are both slower and more time consuming and that fraction of a second makes the difference in the ball going in or not.

2)a very important point is the defending and pressing that a team uses when the opponent has the ball.
in iran this is not existent, hence the opponents have all the time in the world to maneuveur with the ball, wait for their strikers to position themselves in the best point infront of the goal and then send an accurate cross.
in germany, ur lucky if u can dribble past ur man and get a chance to even cross the ball. even in such a scenario, their crosses are more accurate than ours. if u get past a defender, he is most probably gonna foul u and not let u go past him and either have ample time to send in a perfect cross or dribble into the penalty area! the physical battle is much more intense to not the opponent easily cross in, they push, they shove, they tackle and last they foul. so the opponent gets either a throw in, or a foul, or makes a not so accurate cross, or atleast this battling by the fullback gives his team mates in the defense line, the GK and the DM to reorganize and get ready for a cross. also, keep in mind that, such runs are tried to be stopped even before the player reaches in the 1/3rd of their own field. so they are mostly stopped in the middle of the field itself, so even if they give away a foul, it is not near the corner flag or the penalty area but far away in midfield!

we shouldnt give the opponent so much time to dribble, look up, wait for his team mate to wait for a cross in a great position and then receive a cross exactly on his head! our full backs, side midfielders and the defensive midfielder if he is there, shouldnt allow this.
on the other hand, our GK and defense line should also do their job of covering the right players, the GK should be ready to make an exit or not.

like clemente once replied after ferdosipour asked him which is ur favorite formation, clemente replied, "first tell me who has the ball!!!"
all these 1 forward 2 DM 3 CB lineup formations we discuss here is amateurish! we get carried away sometimes

3)awareness of our defenders.
in our entire league, the general awareness and focus of the players is low, specially in defense. it doesnt take a genius to realise that if there is an unmakred opponent either cover him urself or ask ur team mate to. yet u see so many unamrked strikers scoring goals in iran. again the communciation and coordination is low and awareness is also low. they are not aware wat is happening behind them. they just focus on the ball, nothing else even though they know the ball can travel 100 times faster than themselves!

4)role of defenders in making it uneasy for strikers.
philip lahm is not a big defender, but he is a professional. when a cross comes he wont just stand there! inspite of being 19 cm shorter than beygzadeh, he will still jump, even if he knows he has 0 chance of heading it away, but atleast he will create trouble for the opponent in having a clear shot at goal. he will use his body to create unbalance for the striker and during jumps, players lose their balance and focus much easier than on ground. so a little of just jumping and pushing in the air will help reduce the threat of the shot a lottttttt!!!
although beygzadeh having a very low football IQ has been seen over and over again, specially in recent years since he joined esteghlal and is more under focus

5)the defense line and the whole team is more dynamic in europe than in iran. players are always moving, always shifting positions based on the ball and player movement, based on attacks and defenses. in iran players are always walking, until it becomes too late!
so in a worldclass team, while it is true that the defense shifts to the left when the opponent is playing on the left line, they are ready and i can say they already start spreading our and moving back towards the center and stat looking around and marking the approaching strikers. they anticipate the movements of the opponent whether he is going to take a cross or he will dribble inwards. and since they play more like a team, are more dynamic and the space between the 3 lines of defense,midfield and forward line is much lesser, they play much closer to each other and more compact, hence the forwards and specially midfielders can retreat back in support of the defense much quicker than our team who have to run back 50 meters to support the defense!

[Paradigm]

I think the buttom line is, our footballers don't have the needed Euro-style IQ.

I hope Ghotbi analyzes and shows the players' mistakes to them on the video.

Actually TM could use a Liverpool style defender to kill aerial attacks. Who is that guy at 197 cm who plays for Fulham nowadays?

[Martin-Reza]

Bahram jan, actually I recently developed interest for the NFL. Thanks to ESPN America I can see up to 5 NFL games live (or as live in case I rather watch the re-runs of the late games at more civilized times ) per week and several college games as well.

I am not yet much in to American football tactics, but recently started to study the offensive and defensive positions.

I didn't quite understand the conclusions we might draw from the American football defensive line to the Association football defense, maybe you could elaborate a bit what changes we could make to improve our situation?

Yashar jan, very interesting points. Of course some issues as not letting the opponent into the defensive third easily or not letting them cross are obvious, yet crosses are sent repeatedly against Bayern, though not as often.

I think you absolutely nailed a very important issue with the role of the goalkeeper. I guess with a really good keeper, who picks out most of the crosses to the far post, a big share of those dangerous situations are neutralized.

I still would like to know more about the role of the midfielders in such game situations. Is there an important difference in that regard as well, apart from more pressing or does it just come down to the 4 defenders and the goalie?

I think the buttom line is, our footballers don't have the needed Euro-style IQ.
I hope Ghotbi analyzes and shows the players' mistakes to them on the video.
Actually TM could use a Liverpool style defender to kill aerial attacks. Who is that guy at 197 cm who plays for Fulham nowadays?

You are very right, but the interesting thing is what are the exact solutions to the problem? What could Ghotbi tell them? How should such a tall central defender behave in such a situation? And will he even be in center when an attack over "his" wing is executed?

[persianallstars]

Martinjan you can ask this question as often as you like, you won't get a plausible explanation for it.
But trying to answer your question, I would suggest that the right centre back helps out the right back, one of the DMs in a 4-2-3-1 just takes over the position of the centre back to clear the situation or even to start a possible counterattack.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

well I think we look for an answer in the Serie A of Italy...!
many Italian clubs, and also the National team, use the same principle. they do not use a classical 'mantooman' neither not a classical 'area defence'. however a smart mix of both.

I got very impressed and interested in Euro 2000 and Dino Zoff's defence tactics. Mind you Italy lost the finals to France but had the best defence through the whole tournament, specialy if you recall Holland vs Italy in semi finals, the dutch did everything but couldn't harm Italy's defence!

what Dino Zoff did, as far as I can work out) was a radical "Stationary" 4 FULL BACKS (yes 4 not 2 fullbacks). the 4 men defence were positioned very narrow to eachother with little space among them.
The Side wings were covered by left midfield wingers and right midfiled wingers (instead of Left or Right backs, that they did not seem to use)

The defence was nearly stationary and too close to eachother in the penalty area. THE MIDFIELD was shifting on ONE line leftwards in front of the stationary defence when attacked from left and similiarly to the right when attacked from the right!
So the result was: The opponents had NO SPACE at all to send a cross. there was full house of men, rotating midfielders ON ONE LINE and stationary defence... so the opponents were always forced to either pull back or try to do desperate long shots, hence they tend to do mistakes and loose the ball for counter attacks of Italy!

when attacked form the left:


--------------------------------- G K ---------------------------------

------------FULLBACK--FULLBACK--FULLBACK--FULLBACK----------------

--RIGHT MID.--CENTRE MID.--CENTRE MID.--LEFT MID.-------------------


when attacked from the right:


--------------------------------- G K ---------------------------------

------------FULLBACK--FULLBACK--FULLBACK--FULLBACK----------------

------------------RIGHT MID.--CENTRE MID.--CENTRE MID.--LEFT MID.--


so the opponents had no space to send a cross an also had the danger of getting counter attacked by loosing the ball!!! which actualy happened a lot in EURO 2000 and brought Italy to the finals.


Tomislav Ivic tried to do similiar with Iran, but well Farahani fired him without Ivic having a single offcial game, and well Talebi took over and tried to make the best Ivic developed UNFINISHED!!! (thanks again IFF, you guys have always been a joke!)




-------------------------


Now if ghotbi tries to do that, first our players wouldn't be abel to check it out, secondly the media will kill him for playing too defensively!

[Martin-Reza]

Martinjan you can ask this question as often as you like, you won't get a plausible explanation for it.
But trying to answer your question, I would suggest that the right centre back helps out the right back, one of the DMs in a 4-2-3-1 just takes over the position of the centre back to clear the situation or even to start a possible counterattack.

I also think that is a important thing. I will still have to observe if the good teams really do it exactly like that, but I guess they do.

Unfortunately even our best DM, Nekounam, as sometimes discussed here, barely moves back into our own box to help out...

Now if ghotbi tries to do that, first our players wouldn't be abel to check it out, secondly the media will kill him for playing too defensively!

First, lol, that's what I wanted to say all the time while reading your posting.

But thanks for the insight, this really is also one of the important issues. One thing, apart from the interesting circumstance that Zoff seems to play his right midfielder on the left and vice versa , is what happens if an attacking player after all once gets past the midfielder? I guess then the fourback will still shift and we come down to the usual problem.

But overally I think we found the means to avoid such goals:

- Better defense by the midfielders on the side to avoid that the opponents get into the attacking third easily and the fourback's shift
- Better defense by the side midfielders and fullbacks to deny (good) crosses in first place
- The goalkeeper picking out most crosses to the second post if crosses are finally delivered
- The centreback who stays in center marking the player most dangerous in the air
- A defensive midfielder moving back to close gaps in the box

With this set of actions such goals as we repeatedly conceded should be widely avoidable.

[BehzadB]

bottom line is that the solution must involve help from another player..

whether help comes from the DM or the RM or the RCB, it doesn't really matter, the main point here is that help must come from another player. and we are weak in that department.

I think if the DMs get back to help the CBs, then the CB's can help the RB (or LB) in such situation. But when DMs don't get back, the CM has enough to cover and can't help out the side defenders.

Also, we have to pressure the ball on the left side better and not let the opponent cross the ball so freely, when we know our RB is too short for long balls.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

One thing, apart from the interesting circumstance that Zoff seems to play his right midfielder on the left and vice versa ,

loooooooooool yes this guy was a real mafiosi

(edited the positions)

[zzgloo]

Bahram jan, actually I recently developed interest for the NFL. Thanks to ESPN America I can see up to 5 NFL games live (or as live in case I rather watch the re-runs of the late games at more civilized times ) per week and several college games as well.

I am not yet much in to American football tactics, but recently started to study the offensive and defensive positions.

I didn't quite understand the conclusions we might draw from the American football defensive line to the Association football defense, maybe you could elaborate a bit what changes we could make to improve our situation?

martin Jaan....
the Idea behind,NFL defensive strategies, is to make the opposing offenses play the game you want them to play,that is to say,defense dictates a certain strategy that would allow only a certain sheems !!!,and does not give any mis-matches !
In NFL, there are several defensive strategies.......which starts with the set-ups at the midfield, .......which depends how the coach has analysed the opposing offenses.....
We have 4-3,midfield configuration 4-3, tampa, man to man, and Zone defense !!....
which what could apply the most to your question, is ZONE DEFENSE :..that is areas of the field are defended,not offensive players...

Advantages of playing a zone defense
......
There are several reasons for a team to use a zone defense.

The opposing team has a player or players too quick or too big for a man-to-man defense to be effective.
Many zones pack defenders in the lane but allow the offensive team to take long-range shots. If the opponents are poor long-range shooters, a zone can be very effective.
Unless trapping is involved, zone defenses typically do not involve aggressive pressure on the ball handler and allow the offensive team to pass the ball around the perimeter, leading to more time being used by the offensive team before a shot is attempted. Therefore, teams wanting to slow down the tempo of a game will often choose to play zone.
A poor defensive player can often be "hidden" in a zone because teammates can more easily help if he or she is beaten.
If players are in danger of fouling out (especially forwards or midfields), using a zone helps to take the pressure off them.
Playing a zone is usually less tiring than playing man-to-man, so fatigued teams are more inclined to use zones.

Disadvantages of playing a zone defense

Playing a zone entails some risks.
....................

Zones tend to be weak on the perimeter, so they are not very effective against teams with good outside shooters.
Zones have gaps (areas that are not well-covered by defenders) that can be exploited by teams that pass well or have guards capable of penetrating the zone.
If a team is behind in the game, playing a zone is a poor strategy because zones usually allow the offense to take more time off the clock on each possession, which limits the time remaining for the losing team to reduce the lead.
When a shot is attempted, it is often harder for players in a zone to find counterparts to box out for the rebound, which sometimes results in an offensive player getting an easy offensive rebound.

[Martin-Reza]

Sorry for bringing this old thread up again, but Germany conceded exactly this goal today .

[Adesor Vafaseya]

Sorry for bringing this old thread up again, but Germany conceded exactly this goal today .

because they didnt follow this thread (and Adesor's post)

[Paradigm]

Sorry for bringing this old thread up again, but Germany conceded exactly this goal today .

Have you also noticed Germans can't handle certain Eastern European sides well? They lost to Croatia in both Euro 2008 and WC 1998. In the Euro 2008 however, Turkey kicked Croatia out and the Germans kicked Turkey out after that.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

Have you also noticed Germans can't handle certain Eastern European sides well? They lost to Croatia in both Euro 2008 and WC 1998. In the Euro 2008 however, Turkey kicked Croatia out and the Germans kicked Turkey out after that.

The Eastern European sites play as physical as Germans but have something Germans dont have, technical skills.... explains some of the above.

on the other note: Blazevics croatia of 98 was a dream team in all aspects.... every team struggled against them.....