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TM' right flank issues & Shojaei's latest performance

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    TM' right flank issues & Shojaei's latest performance

    with departure of Kia, our right flank that was traditionally our strength, has become an unknown, unreliable side that hardly pays off and we see with madanchi's displays lately, our left has gained prominence in our attacks.

    given khalatbari's style and best performances, it is obvious his best comes out when he's placed more centrally than on the flanks.

    ... which brings us to shojaei;
    I watched his game against hercules club in spain's copa-delray and if I divide my observations into two sections of offensive and defensive, I must say he impressed me with some of his offensive moves down the right flank.

    1- offensive:
    he was impressive in some of the tasks, especially his crosses that I think were of high quality. not too high or too slow to allow the defense to regroup or anticipate.
    a couple of them were done on the run which took the defense by surprise.

    he also didnt try to dribble too much and clearly have been told not to overdo this. which is a huge plus for me.

    however, the area covered by him wasnt enough, especially he didnt show any runs down the line and wasnt able to provide the width to the team, near the opponent's flag.

    but nevertheless, a good offensive performance.


    2- defensively, however, he was just abysmal!
    he still doesnt know how to tackle.
    he doesnt participate in the defense. and the couple of times he half-heartedly tried to mark or block an opponent, he fouled the fellow!

    he was also not able to come on top in physical clashes and body-checks, and usually lost to the opponent. but seeing his upper body shape, I'd say that's natural, coz he doesnt have the optimal shape nor the bulk to win such confrontations.
    he needs to work on this.


    so what do we do with such a player?
    he seems to be refining his offensive game and raises the hope of him being a good offensive midfielder, even on the flank (although a little more wide plays are needed) but in more than a year he still hasnt learned how to defend! and any midfielder needs and MUST participate in defense.

    a team whose mids dont take part in defense will be exposed. and if it's on the flanks, then it'll put extraodinary amount of pressure on the RB.
    now, if you have someone like kaabi as RB, who's very good in offensive duties but suspect in defense, than that's double the trouble!
    I'd say even Haydari is not defensive enough to ensure us of a safe right flank.

    so if we do use shojaie on the right, would it serve us to place an out-n-out defender (nosrati perhaps?) behind him t ensure a sort of insurance for his defensive lapses?



    or do we start cultivating a NEW pair for our right flank:
    Kaabi - haydari, with kaabi as the midfielder who has the pace, the crosses, the wide game, and defensively better than shojaei. while haydari as the RB who is a better defender than kaabi but also with great offensive capabilities and style.
    (I'd also add kazemian as the RM. but that' my personal opinion)

    having such a pair, given their age, we pretty much enure our right flank for MANY YEARS to come and with each passing year it beocmes more refined and perfect.

    #2
    with mahdavikias support, it might have well been one of the reason why
    kaabi used to shine back then.before i used to think no one could get pass
    this kid.now id rather have the inexperienced (at tm) heydari.

    shojae's off the ball movements are slow, but his runnin with the ball is quite
    above average and good.the problem is he isnt too fast without the ball.

    another point as u mentioned is he helping the team out in defense, it needs
    work.

    he needs to be more confidence and relaxed, he has huge capabilities in terms
    of dribbling and changing the game when needed, he could
    play better when more confident of his own capabilities.but i prefare rezayi in the
    RM, kazemian at his prime was destructive.
    Humanity. Love. Earth.

    Comment


      #3
      I agree that Heydari or Kaebi suit a classic RM more than Shojaei and Khalatbari.

      BUT, in a 4-2-3-1 it is more a right wing position, maybe even a wing forward position, which does not mainly imply the task of running down the side and crossing the ball, but also to get inside the box and create danger for the goal, as the lone striker needs support from the offensive trio behind him in the box.

      It also implies less defensive tasks, as you have 2 DMs, which don't solely have the sense of driving Dr. Doom crazy, but also to take weight of the offensive players' shoulders in defense.

      So for that system, I clearly prefer Shojaei and Khalatbari over Heydari or Kaebi.

      For a classic 4-4-2 there is no doubt that Shojaei and Khalatbari two are almost completely unsuitable, unless you play is "square", like Brazil did with Kaka and Ronaldinho as the 2 OMs a few years back.

      But even in the 4-4-2, I'd rather have the fighter Kaebi as RB and Heydari, the man with the better crosses, as RM.

      Comment


        #4
        1- in dozens and dozens of games that we've used the 2 def-mids it has never helped consolidate our defense and we are as susceptible & vulnerable as always.
        so it is safe to say, defensively, having 2 def-mids is no different from having 1. it hasnt made us any less penetrable. and we still concede sh*tty goals to all sorts of weak teams!

        but offensively, it has reduced our numbers up front, and reduced our sharpness, which is seen in shortage of goals as well as inability of our lone forwards to score goals. and that has denied us many wins.

        putting the above 2 points, it only points towards a team that is good in drawing games!

        lets not forget in WCQ's, what kept us out of the WC was LACK OF WINS, while we did have quite a few (too many) draws.


        ----------------

        2- I'm shocked .... just SHOCKED to see martin advocate the forward players not take part in defense!
        in today's modern football ALL players ought to defend, no matter where they are.
        so overlooking an important duty of a player just so we can shove his name into the squad is just unacceptable.

        I'm shocked!!!

        ----------------------

        3- both kaabi and haydari, apart from having an excellent wide game, both also can cut inside and surge into the box. so this aspect is also covered by this combo

        ---------------

        4- we tend to forget one key factor in any team that needs to win games and that is the role of a playmaker.
        without someone in the middle, who can direct traffic and CREATE chances, that team WILL struggle to win games. and that's what we've been suffering from.

        by using up one of the middle spots for the useless and impact-less second def-mid, we usually do away with a proper playmaker.
        and that's why the team ALWAYS looks unimaginative, fail to create enough opportunities and look like headless chicks merely running around with no purpose!

        --------------------

        5- I'm sorry if my priorities are the TEAM's performance rather than fitting in as many "good players" as possible, to the point of f**king up the quality of performance ... just becoz we HAVE TO fit all the stars!

        that doesnt work for me.
        I'd rather have a team that functions smoothly and has all areas covered, rather than a team jampacked with stars who dont fit and who are played in wrong positions just so we can use them in the 11 !!!

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post
          2- I'm shocked .... just SHOCKED to see martin advocate the forward players not take part in defense!
          in today's modern football ALL players ought to defend, no matter where they are.
          so overlooking an important duty of a player just so we can shove his name into the squad is just unacceptable.
          I'm shocked!!!
          I'm shocked finding out you can't read after all this time. I didn't say they shouldn't defend, I said they have less defensive tasks in that system than a classic RM in a classic 4-4-2 .

          Comment


            #6
            I'm jus shocked you advocate less than 100% efforts from our players!
            just SHOCKED !!

            ===============

            btw, the link below shows majority of our league teams play 4-4-2 and in fact you may find one or at best 2 teams that employ 4-2-3-1.
            which makes one wonder why at TM we're trying to force-feed a formation that the players hardly are familiar with and rarely use/see in their daily sessions.
            http://www.varzeshi.net/sport.php?go=11-88.10.20.jpg
            this is also a reply to someone who claimed many IPL teams use this system and we have the players and ... etc etc !!

            Comment


              #7
              I agree with all the points Dr Doom has mentioned... Now this comes to mind also, are there any other reliable RBs in the IPL aside from Kaabi and Heydari who could be considered for that TM position too?
              sigpic

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footbal...he_Asian_Games

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post
                this is also a reply to someone who claimed many IPL teams use this system and we have the players and ... etc etc !!
                looollll....posting an article about "Tarkibe ehtemali" from khabar varzeshi newspaper,,,peyman u try too hard!

                i claimed that cos perspolis won the league with 4-2-3-1,
                sepahan reached the finals of ACL and participated in world club championships with 4-2-3-1,
                osasuna plays 4-2-3-1 most of the times,
                which not only shows their success compared to other teams but also shows that majority of TM players have been playing with this formation for some time now!
                daei's saipa and firooz karimi's esteghlal ahvaz also used to play 4-2-3-1 quite often!

                but ofcourse,,,im only wasting my time.... unless u want to post me some tarkibe ehtemali articles again

                P.S. i think if i remember correctly, peykan played 4-2-3-1 or was it 4-5-1 against both us and perspolis this season and beat us both in azadi itself, maybe rah ahan too... just for u to know who valid and legitimate ur "proof" is
                Last edited by yashar_fasihnia; 01-09-2010, 11:06 PM.
                Originally posted by siavasharian
                ESTEGHLAL:

                بهترین خط دفاع.بهترین خط حمله.ثبت رکورد بیشترین گل زده.پر امتیاز ترین تیم ادوار لیگ برتر با ۴۰۹ امتیاز.پر افتخار ترین مربی لیگ برتر با دو قهرمانی
                بهترین گلزن لیگ: آرش برهانی [استقلال] با ۲۱ گل زدهبهترین خط حمله: استقلال تهران با ۷۰ گل زده

                Comment


                  #9
                  Our right flank is OK, it's our RB that is a problem

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Dont you guys think that it's maybe time to accept that we dont have material that suite these system 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1? Maybe we have to accept the fact that we must go back to the traditional old 3-5-2?


                    ---------------------------------Rahmati----------------------------------------

                    ---------------------Aghili----------Hosseini----------Nosrati--------------------

                    Kaebi(Haydari)-------Shojaee(khalatbari)-----Ando----Nekounam-----------Hajsafee

                    -----------------Ansarifard(Zenejedpour)----------Khalatbari(Shojaee)-------------
                    Last edited by Essi; 01-10-2010, 04:32 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      ^ as long as the players are able to deliver their duties and the team shows acceptable performance, even the older formations like 3-5-2 would be fine.

                      but if we tear ourselves from 4 different places, as long as our players arent capable of delivering the tasks, the numbers dont make sense. ..... even if it is some modern one.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post
                        I'm jus shocked you advocate less than 100% efforts from our players!
                        just SHOCKED !!
                        Stop misinterpreting anything I say just to advocate your idea.

                        It's not my fault that over years you fail to understand the basic idea of a 4-2-3-1 and the tasks of the different roles in that system.

                        That the 4 offensive players smiply have less defensive tasks than eg. an RM in a flat 4-4-2 and therefore a possible lack of quality in that department is not such a problem, has nothing to do with advocating less than 100% effort.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          This is just what the apologists of other former coaches said: don't blame the coach, blame the players, infrastructure, organisations, etc.

                          Look, it doesn't cut it. Africa has better teams with a fraction of our resources.

                          Ghotbi is a joke, get over it...FFS get over it.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by kaz View Post

                            Ghotbi is a joke, get over it...FFS get over it.
                            What do you mean and who are you calling FFS? Dont forget that this is F+ forum and there is a reason why we SELECT members here.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Essi View Post
                              What do you mean and who are you calling FFS? Dont forget that this is F+ forum and there is a reason why we SELECT members here.
                              FFS is net slang; I'll let you google it. What it is not is an insult. Save your warning for somebody else.

                              Comment

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