TM' right flank issues & Shojaei's latest performance

[Doctor DOOM]

What do you mean and who are you calling FFS? Dont forget that this is F+ forum and there is a reason why we SELECT members here.

lol. it's all good, mate.
FFS is simply "for fuk's sake" whihc is pretty much like "for god's sake" with more emphasis & passion


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anyway, I think bacheh ro chesh zadim, coz shojaei terr zad in osa's latest game!

consistency is another important thing to consider

[Essi]

lol. it's all good, mate.
FFS is simply "for fuk's sake" whihc is pretty much like "for god's sake" with more emphasis & passion

sometimes you can use as F u c k face

[Amin_]

anyway, I think bacheh ro chesh zadim, coz shojaei terr zad in osa's latest game!

consistency is another important thing to consider

Peyman jaan, that's not totally fair imo. Osasuna's whole team was abysmal against Deportivo, plus besides that, Nekounam was sent off not long after Shojaei came in, so they had to play with 10.

Agree that Shojaei has to work on his consistency in general though.

[toofan]

i really see a dull future for shoaje unless he improves, or god gives a big
helping hand.

[Doctor DOOM]

If I have to draw parallels, I think the best comparison can be made between his case and karimi's.

karimi also was a more selfish, technical, highly skilled with the ball, a dribbler, ... kind of players before his 2 year european stint. used to the more sedate arabic leagues. a player who couldnt defend nor tackle or .. . a player who style more often than not stifled the momentum and pace of the team rather than helping it! pretty much a player serving HIS own style and game during matches, than the team's needs.

so was shojaei before osa.


but after 2 years in europe, karimi became a more allrounder, with a pretty good defensive game, learned tackling and interception, used his pace better, passed more and was in service of the team far more than before.

however, shojaei, after 2 seasons, has shown almost NO improvements in defensive capabilities. he still has his individualistic style and he hasnt shown much in terms of adding new skills to his game
all this, despite being 4-5 years younger than when karimi had the same experience, and getting far more game-time than karimi!!!!

leads me to align with toofan's predictions!

[BehzadB]

This is just what the apologists of other former coaches said: don't blame the coach, blame the players, infrastructure, organisations, etc.

Look, it doesn't cut it. Africa has better teams with a fraction of our resources.

Ghotbi is a joke, get over it...FFS get over it.

African teams have better teams for a different reason.
most of those teams have many players who play in Europe and from a young age. they are FAR more superior in pure talent and athleticism than us...

If we had 6 or 7 players at their prime playing in Europe, our team would have been a strong team too.

MK assembled one of the best TM's ever (Ironically 5 or 6 of those players ended up in Europe) , but Ciro who was and is a great coach couldn't beat Thailand and his team failed to make it to the WC..

This is not to say that Ghotbi is a great coach, but to say it's all on the coach, is fan talk...

[kaz]

African teams have better teams for a different reason.
most of those teams have many players who play in Europe and from a young age. they are FAR more superior in pure talent and athleticism than us...
If we had 6 or 7 players at their prime playing in Europe, our team would have been a strong team too.
MK assembled one of the best TM's ever (Ironically 5 or 6 of those players ended up in Europe) , but Ciro who was and is a great coach couldn't beat Thailand and his team failed to make it to the WC..
This is not to say that Ghotbi is a great coach, but to say it's all on the coach, is fan talk...

And none of those players before going to Europe had great resources. Not every African player left as a 14 year old. Players like Drogba and Eto'o had already developed in large part at home.

And yet with all their stars the best they've ever achieved was the quarter-finals of the world cup. Something that has been met and surpassed by Asian teams more than once. Coaches play a huge role and Ghotbi is out of his element. Blaming infrastructure, organisation, etc is relevant, but Ghotbi is not good enough to take advantage anyway.

[Martin-Reza]

If I have to draw parallels, I think the best comparison can be made between his case and karimi's.

karimi also was a more selfish, technical, highly skilled with the ball, a dribbler, ... kind of players before his 2 year european stint. used to the more sedate arabic leagues. a player who couldnt defend nor tackle or .. . a player who style more often than not stifled the momentum and pace of the team rather than helping it! pretty much a player serving HIS own style and game during matches, than the team's needs.

so was shojaei before osa.


but after 2 years in europe, karimi became a more allrounder, with a pretty good defensive game, learned tackling and interception, used his pace better, passed more and was in service of the team far more than before.

however, shojaei, after 2 seasons, has shown almost NO improvements in defensive capabilities. he still has his individualistic style and he hasnt shown much in terms of adding new skills to his game
all this, despite being 4-5 years younger than when karimi had the same experience, and getting far more game-time than karimi!!!!

leads me to align with toofan's predictions!

After 2 years in Europe Karimi was a ruined player with no ambition to pursue his European career after not even making the bench most of the time in his second season.

After 2 years in Europe Shojaei is one of only 2 players to have participated in every single game this season at his club.

I know there is a difference between Osasuna and Bayern, but still Shojaei is obviously doing a lot of stuff right, otherwise Camacho, the coach who didn't transfer him to Osasuna, wouldn't play him every game.

[kaz]

After 2 years in Europe Karimi was a ruined player with no ambition to pursue his European career after not even making the bench most of the time in his second season.

After 2 years in Europe Shojaei is one of only 2 players to have participated in every single game this season at his club.

I know there is a difference between Osasuna and Bayern, but still Shojaei is obviously doing a lot of stuff right, otherwise Camacho, the coach who didn't transfer him to Osasuna, wouldn't play him every game.

Apples and oranges. Karimi played for Bayern where Masoud's form would be enough to send him back to Iran. Karimi was, prior to his injury, one of Bayern's better players and kept out most of their midfielders. His first and second seasons were like night and day.

Peyman's point stands; Shojaei is hardly a different player; still wasteful with flashes of brilliance. Karimi became an all-round player - in fact he played pretty much everywhere in midfield for Bayern.

[Doctor DOOM]

to add to kazem's very valid points,

After 2 years in Europe Karimi was a ruined player with no ambition to pursue his European career after not even making the bench most of the time in his second season.

After 2 years in Europe Shojaei is one of only 2 players to have participated in every single game this season at his club.

I know there is a difference between Osasuna and Bayern, but still Shojaei is obviously doing a lot of stuff right, otherwise Camacho, the coach who didn't transfer him to Osasuna, wouldn't play him every game.

you are right in one thing: lack of ambition in karimi.
but first of all, that has nothing to do with how his GAME imporved and became a far better player. yes, despite the lack of ambition.

secondly, he was ALWAYS short on ambition. whether in uae, in iran or in europe.
so basically, it has nothing to do with going or not going to europe.
again, the key is the QUALITY of his gamer before and after his europe tenure.


as for shojaei, we both know you're side-stepping the issue, which is any improvement in his game quality.
just becoz osa is a small club without any stars or much funds nor ... therefore, they obviously cant afford top quality players (like the other biggies) which means players like shojaei, despite his failings in many aspects like defensive characteristics, will get more playtime.
so this is pure distraction from the topic.

[Martin-Reza]

What I was up to is that Karimi didn't improve at all in Germany actually. When he came he was a starter and then as an improved player he wasn't even good enough for the bench?

Actually he declined during his time at Bayern and his playing time supports this claim. Karimi's playing style switching more to passing is a matter of age only, which started long before he went to Bayern and is still going on. It's not about learning sth, or sth only positive, but a matter of his physical abilities. But of course with age you gain experience and overview usually.

I think Karimi's decline was not a result of going to Europe, but of age. He was a genius from 2001-2004, then he started to lose speed, agility and energy.

So it's simply incorrect to claim Karimi improved during his time in Germany while Shojaei didn't. It's rather Karimi declining while Shojaei is playing constantly for 2.5 years already. I even think Shojaei improved a lot, he has become much more effectively ever since going to Europe.

[Doctor DOOM]

What I was up to is that Karimi didn't improve at all in Germany actually. When he came ---------.

^ LOL.
until this post, you were slightly right .. at least about the lack of ambitions.
NOW, however, you are FULLY wrong. hahaha
especially the "karimi declined" bit sort of ruined it for you



btw, he got MORE active AFTER his europe stint. not to mention he ADDED new dimensions to his game (not becoz he got old, but becoz he got wise that mindless dribbling gets you a fraction of a simple pass)
so the "age" argument is moot

[kaz]

Shojaei scored a cracker it must be said.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ yes, nice goal.
and it was also important in advancing osa.

but technically, this is the kind of goals shojaie's sort of players score; dribble, dribble, to score "gol koochik" style.

nevertheless, a nice goal.

[Martin-Reza]

^ LOL.
until this post, you were slightly right .. at least about the lack of ambitions.
NOW, however, you are FULLY wrong. hahaha
especially the "karimi declined" bit sort of ruined it for you



btw, he got MORE active AFTER his europe stint. not to mention he ADDED new dimensions to his game (not becoz he got old, but becoz he got wise that mindless dribbling gets you a fraction of a simple pass)
so the "age" argument is moot

Yeah sure, Karimi improved a lot in Europe. That's why you will surely find many people who will agree that the 2008 Ali Karimi was better than the 2004 Ali Karimi .