Iran - Thailand

[Paradigm]

Ali Karimi is 31 and he will be 32 when the Asian Cup takes place, exactly 10 months from now.

He undoubtedly was inspiring our offense today.

Overall we didn't play bad. This reminds me of van Gaal, who told reporters the 1-1 draw against Nuremberg had been the best game he had seen by his team this season. He explained the surprised reporters how hard it is to permanently dominate a destructive team and to create numerous chances against them, while only allowing one chance for that team.

Overall our passing was much better than usually and the number of unforced errors was much lower than our normal average. We barely allowed chances despite normally attacking with 6-7 players and created many chances against a defensive lock by a team which surely is no pushover.

And apart from Dr. Doom and the somewhat senile commentator everyone knows Shojaei can play striker and that we actually played with 4 strikers, rather than none.

^^ Thanks I agree with all your points. Ghotbi has simply put together the best possible lineup. To a big degree also it remains to be seen if the players will actually deliver and if the lady luck will be on the team's side. However, constant complaining and negativity is bound to push the lady luck away.

[kami_kakashi]

bahram jan,
I have a car that has only 3 wheels and the fourth one is stolen. if I refuse to use the car and say "my car has no problems" , just becoz I am not going to use it, .... wouldnt you laugh at me and call me ridiculous?

just becoz we have problems in our strikers, not using any in a game will solve it?
NO.
we're just foolishly postponing the moment of realization.
and with some of us, that moment is when we face a major tournament and we suddenly have no time to try some experiments.

ok .... we got lucky and somehow we scrape through against a 4th tier team, while using a brainless line up of no forwards. how do you think we'd fare against B grade teams like bahrain and uae, iraq, and china ... let alone and forget about the top guns like korea, japan and aussies?


you think we'd continue to get lucky?

the age old phrase of "agar gol nazani, gol mokhori" has been proven again and again. where do you think we'd be then?

Just so I understand you agree that only problem with the line up was lack of a target man? Shojaei has been used in the position of target man and Ghotbi gave it a go. It fialed he realized the failure and swapped him with Ansarifard..

Now I will be the first one to show the door to Ghotbi when that time comes (hope will come before the next set of WCQ games) but we have to be honest and call it what it is. From the prespective of finding a best 11 Ghotbi is very close to the mark he only lacks in target man which I have some faith that Khalili/Ansarifard will step up and get that...

Rest of the positions are fixed... you can even argue the subs are fixed which are Rezaei, Zeneyedpour and Nouri. This is turning up to be a very good team. All they need now is a long term camp.

The problem for me still remains that Ghotbi is not a coach so I am hoping that this team will manage to spend a lot of time together and get used to each other and then we get a good coach added for WCQ games.

[KasraKhan]

Is it me or is this Ansarifard kid a breath of fresh air? Finally a prospect for the striker position. Ghotbi should start him in AC, he is the closest thing we have to a "target forward"

--------Ansarifard-------
-Shojaei--Karimi---Khalatbari

[Keano]

Amin jaan,

I believe the match you were referring to against S. Korea which ended in 2-0 for us, the goal scorers were Enayati and Hossein Badamaki, here is his goal:

As a side note now that you mentioned, how embarrassing was the commentator.. He was so out of touch with reality.. he picked on Nekounam for his number not knowing that under AFC rules if a number is used by some other player (in this case Bagheri) it can't be re-used by some other players for those games (this case being Asian Cup Qualifiers)...

If I am not mistaken a worn number by a player cannot be re-worn by another player of that team in the same competition, for instance throughout QWCQ rounds a number shall be worn only by one player and no one else may wear that number, even if the original number bearer is no longer in the squad.

I am glad to see that I was not the only one who was amazed by how shallow and out of touch the IRIB commentator was during the match broadcast, claiming TM played without a single striker was the most ridiculous and futile comment one may make, we all know how Shojaei has occasionally played as striker in his club team Osasuna, same applies to Khalatbari, also Karimi has randomly been used as a striker in different teams, same with Madanchi. What baffles me is how many of our dear members also make same mistake as the IRIB commentator did!

I for one believe we performed much better than how we did back in 2001 against Thailand in both home and especially away game (We got super lucky not to concede 3-4 goals in that game), and how once again we got outperformed in the first leg of this round in Thailand. Just a reminder!

[Martin-Reza]

As a side note now that you mentioned, how embarrassing was the commentator.. He was so out of touch with reality.. he picked on Nekounam for his number not knowing that under AFC rules if a number is used by some other player (in this case Bagheri) it can't be re-used by some other players for those games (this case being Asian Cup Qualifiers)...

Exactly, lol, totally forgot that after the game but it was one of the things making me shake my head in disbelief listening to that commentator. This was one of the least informed and knowledgable reporters I've ever heard on IRIB.

A Wise analysis.....
In relation to where TM has been, and how things are developing...
TM,while Ghotbi may not ultimatly remain as the head coach...seems to be going into a correct direction......and in order to bring in new talents, a head coach needs to stablish the Skeleton ,and structure of the TM first....
1- Rahmati...owns the position.
2-Haydar.....has made every one forget kabie....FIXED for our right corner.
3-Haj-Safi...much better a choice than Zandi at left corner, with better future for the position......FIXED at the position...any use of any other currant left backs,in the league, would have slowed down the team ,with less promising a future.
4- Aghili & Hossaini,are best the country can offer at the position ..FIXED.
5-Khalatbari.....starting,and becoming FIXED for TM.
6-Neko is the foundation to TM...FIXED
7-Madanchi .....at his prime...FIXED.
8-Ansari Fard...up coming talent,and FIXED at least for a secound half.,and may be more in future.
......................
Above structure, is what Ghotbi has stablished, as bases for future..,and other positions can be revolving door,and testing ground in future....
.................................................. ...............................................
Regarding the game against Tailand
...
1- Total control of the game.
2-Total control of the time of posession.
3-10 to 1...corners.
4-15 to 1 ... chances of scoring Goals.
....
Considering, not having a seriouse stricker talent in the league...the line up, was safe,although,they may get better with more time spent together...and future prospects,can be tried and pluged in,around the already stablished structure by Ghotbi.

Very good analysis. A coach can't demand more than such a dominance apart from better finishing. But since the coach can't score himself, that's never his fault, unless he keeps a goalgetter on the bench. But since we have none, that wasn't the case.

And I agree with you analysis of fixed players. I only disagree in case of Heydari as I still think Kaebi is the better rightback and Heydari is a better midfielder as his outstanding skill is crossing, but he definitely is a solid rightback too, roughly on Kaebi's level, so I can live with that. I think Kaebi's exclusion might be in connection with the reports about fighting in Qatar between Kaebi and the Sepahan players. There are no sporting reasons to invite Mohammad instead of Kaebi.

Basically Shojaei and Karimi are also fixed, so upfront we actually have one option too much, but which coach wouldn't like to have such a problem. With Zanidpour and Rezaei available as well, we're pretty good in offense, though not in the centre-forward position. The offensive line is the most competitive part of our team.

Teymourian also seems somewhat fixed and despite his lacking match praxis delivers what's expected from him, so unless some youngster pops up unexpectedly, he'll keep his spot.

[Doctor DOOM]

Just so I understand you agree that only problem with the line up was lack of a target man? Shojaei has been used in the position of target man and Ghotbi gave it a go. It fialed he realized the failure and swapped him with Ansarifard..
Now I will be the first one to show the door to Ghotbi when that time comes (hope will come before the next set of WCQ games) but we have to be honest and call it what it is. From the prespective of finding a best 11 Ghotbi is very close to the mark he only lacks in target man which I have some faith that Khalili/Ansarifard will step up and get that...
Rest of the positions are fixed... you can even argue the subs are fixed which are Rezaei, Zeneyedpour and Nouri. This is turning up to be a very good team. All they need now is a long term camp.
The problem for me still remains that Ghotbi is not a coach so I am hoping that this team will manage to spend a lot of time together and get used to each other and then we get a good coach added for WCQ games.

my friend, merely putting a human being in a post does not constitute a "trial".
I hope I dont have to go through what's been discussed on many occasions that none of what shojaei does fits a striker's tasks, nor what he is (physically or capability) as it's been discussed ad nauseum here. or at least, are half-baked.

but if you want to approach the subject from the view of "trying someone who MAY work out", then I say there are P.L.E.N.T.Y. of proper strikers who deserve to be tried before reaching shojaei's name.
the very same ansarifard is a prime example. then we have the likes of borhani (yes, he's been tried. but he is definitely closer to being a proper striker than shojaei), kaveh rezaei, hadi asghari, amraei, mosalman, .... etc. (beside the likes of khalili, seyedsalehi, rezaei, ...)
afterall these ARE forwards. instead of a slow midfielder who keeps dribbling and dribbling whether it's needed or not!

if you want to forcibly push an object that's not round into a round hole, then you will get better results with an oval, far quicker and better than a square.

==============

as for yesterday's team, my problem with the team selection, as stated before is 2 issues:
1- the team not having a striker
2- bringing karimi instead of trying someone like Jamshidian (having a magnificent season at sepahan) who's much younger and have years of use for us.
(also using 2 DM is pretty much useless. been discussed much in the past)

and as for the team performance & quality, which is another let down.
some ppl may say we had the possession and had many chances. but almost none of these chances looked like a rehearsed or practiced tactic. and yes, do keep the quality of the opponents in mind too.

a 2nd tier asian team would pose a far more difficult threat and wont allow even this little showing by TM! remember jordan game? and jordan isnt even a B grade team yet!


looks like ghotbi got what he wanted to relieve the pressure off him. a win ( no matter how watered down and lousy) against a piss poor team that can be dominated in AZADI. therefore once again, sweeping all the problems and defects of the team under the rug for quite a few fans

=====

... which brings me to how we Iranians are some of the most two-faced ppl on earth.
we slaughtered GN for scoring 2 goals IN MALAYSIA against the HOME team, in that EXTREMELY DIFFICULT CLIMATE and humidity and ... etc.
but suddenly scoring a 90th minute goal in AZADI, under absolutely no stress, with all our legionnaires compels some of us to actually praise the team's pitiful performance!!
I wonder what our priorities are

[zzgloo]

bahram jan,
I have a car that has only 3 wheels and the fourth one is stolen. if I refuse to use the car and say "my car has no problems" , just becoz I am not going to use it, .... wouldnt you laugh at me and call me ridiculous?

just becoz we have problems in our strikers, not using any in a game will solve it?
NO.
we're just foolishly postponing the moment of realization.
and with some of us, that moment is when we face a major tournament and we suddenly have no time to try some experiments.

ok .... we got lucky and somehow we scrape through against a 4th tier team, while using a brainless line up of no forwards. how do you think we'd fare against B grade teams like bahrain and uae, iraq, and china ... let alone and forget about the top guns like korea, japan and aussies?


you think we'd continue to get lucky?

the age old phrase of "agar gol nazani, gol mokhori" has been proven again and again. where do you think we'd be then?

...

Payman jaan.....
You are defenetly a worthy person to argue about TM, as in most issues regarding TM, I admit,you know better Than I do......How ever, you may be wrong on this one......

1- Your terminology,regarding a car without a tire....scapes me !!!!
How could a head coach ,try some one who is not even a prospect ?....do you think ansari fard deserves to play in TM currantly ?...the answer is no !!, but he deffenetly has earned to be considered as a prospect !!!.......
But, the reality is, that is about all....there is no other prospect like Ansari fard.......TM is not a place to teach players..it is a place to try prospects !

2-Your assesment of TM got lucky !, is unfair .....you are emplying,thailand was the better team in that game.

3-And most importantly, your idea of how TM should try new players.......
The way, Ali Daei,tried new players, was the most stupid way possible ......
his way ,it is called in farsi " Falehi ", as in mass substitutions...and no one knew if he is in or not.........The ghotbi's way, is based on,stablishing structure, and pluging in prospects.

[zzgloo]

Very good analysis. A coach can't demand more than such a dominance apart from better finishing. But since the coach can't score himself, that's never his fault, unless he keeps a goalgetter on the bench. But since we have none, that wasn't the case.
And I agree with you analysis of fixed players. I only disagree in case of Heydari as I still think Kaebi is the better rightback and Heydari is a better midfielder as his outstanding skill is crossing, but he definitely is a solid rightback too, roughly on Kaebi's level, so I can live with that. I think Kaebi's exclusion might be in connection with the reports about fighting in Qatar between Kaebi and the Sepahan players. There are no sporting reasons to invite Mohammad instead of Kaebi.
Basically Shojaei and Karimi are also fixed, so upfront we actually have one option too much, but which coach wouldn't like to have such a problem. With Zanidpour and Rezaei available as well, we're pretty good in offense, though not in the centre-forward position. The offensive line is the most competitive part of our team.
Teymourian also seems somewhat fixed and despite his lacking match praxis delivers what's expected from him, so unless some youngster pops up unexpectedly, he'll keep his spot.

We are mostly in agreement....martin jaan....
I also liked kabie's speed,and scapes from the right side,as well as his talent of making opposing defenders commit a faul on him............
Yet,he is too inconsistant,and some times a distraction......as Haydari, could be a " new Mahdavikia " with much more consistancy.

[Doctor DOOM]

...
Payman jaan.....
You are defenetly a worthy person to argue about TM, as in most issues regarding TM, I admit,you know better Than I do......How ever, you may be wrong on this one......
1- Your terminology,regarding a car without a tire....scapes me !!!!
How could a head coach ,try some one who is not even a prospect ?....do you think ansari fard deserves to play in TM currantly ?...the answer is no !!, but he deffenetly has earned to be considered as a prospect !!!.......
But, the reality is, that is about all....there is no other prospect like Ansari fard.......TM is not a place to teach players..it is a place to try prospects !
2-Your assesment of TM got lucky !, is unfair .....you are emplying,thailand was the better team in that game.
3-And most importantly, your idea of how TM should try new players.......
The way, Ali Daei,tried new players, was the most stupid way possible ......
his way ,it is called in farsi " Falehi ", as in mass substitutions...and no one knew if he is in or not.........The ghotbi's way, is based on,stablishing structure, and pluging in prospects.

bahram jan, I know as much as you or anyone else and there's no difference between us all , as we're just fans and I can assume (and hope) we all want the best for Iran.

now, to answer ur querry (which I wish you hadnt ansered FOR ME): YES, DAMN RIGHT I think this is the right time to try the likes of ansarifard.
then when do you propose using him? against japan in asia cup? or against thailand in an inconsequential game at home?

is he a prospect for TM? 1000%


second: I didnt imply thh thais were the better team as is evident in my post. but I said we were arranged and selected so inferiorly that we failed to take advantage despite having the home ground, no stress, far superior players, superior physicality, ... etc etc etc.


third: actually daei did quite a few good things ( but not all, especially when it came to certain dicisions under pressure).
he brought in ashjari who was heads and shoulders above all those who've been tried at LB ( and ghotbi proved he is just as small minded and petty as the rest of vatani coaches who hold onto their grudges and are vindictive, by dropping ashjari along with zareh and a few others). he also brought in khalatabari and ansarifard ( and even rezaei). and I hope you dont want me to explain how benefitial they've been.
as for "falehi" , how would you explain ghotbi's when he did the same early in his tenure?




but let me ask you: when exactly (meaning in what kind of situations) do you propose trying out new players or prospects? that would make me understand your views better.

[zzgloo]

bahram jan, I know as much as you or anyone else and there's no difference between us all , as we're just fans and I can assume (and hope) we all want the best for Iran.

now, to answer ur querry (which I wish you hadnt ansered FOR ME): YES, DAMN RIGHT I think this is the right time to try the likes of ansarifard.
then when do you propose using him? against japan in asia cup? or against thailand in an inconsequential game at home?

is he a prospect for TM? 1000%


second: I didnt imply thh thais were the better team as is evident in my post. but I said we were arranged and selected so inferiorly that we failed to take advantage despite having the home ground, no stress, far superior players, superior physicality, ... etc etc etc.


third: actually daei did quite a few good things ( but not all, especially when it came to certain dicisions under pressure).
he brought in ashjari who was heads and shoulders above all those who've been tried at LB ( and ghotbi proved he is just as small minded and petty as the rest of vatani coaches who hold onto their grudges and are vindictive, by dropping ashjari along with zareh and a few others). he also brought in khalatabari and ansarifard ( and even rezaei). and I hope you dont want me to explain how benefitial they've been.
as for "falehi" , how would you explain ghotbi's when he did the same early in his tenure?




but let me ask you: when exactly (meaning in what kind of situations) do you propose trying out new players or prospects? that would make me understand your views better.

payman just, I did not mean to put hendevaneh under your arms !!!....I have seen how deep you some times, analyse some games, which I do not go that far...........
It is evident, one can not be understood well by just writing like we do here...,and redundant explanation may be neccessary..
I brought the example of Ansari-fard...to tell you, he was a legitimate prospect,hence he was tried on the secound half.......
And that is also the answer to your question as when should players be tried.......
No one should be tried, unless they are a legitimate " PROSPECT ".......
Ashjari was no body, and still is nobody,he is now, lost among hundreds of mediocer players in the league ........he was tried out of desperation,for lack of options, and so is why Haj-safi is being tried.....
and contrary to your opinion, I do not see Ashjari even close to Haj safi......there is nothing , kabei or Haydari could do, that haj safi can not.

[kami_kakashi]

my friend, merely putting a human being in a post does not constitute a "trial".
I hope I dont have to go through what's been discussed on many occasions that none of what shojaei does fits a striker's tasks, nor what he is (physically or capability) as it's been discussed ad nauseum here. or at least, are half-baked.

but if you want to approach the subject from the view of "trying someone who MAY work out", then I say there are P.L.E.N.T.Y. of proper strikers who deserve to be tried before reaching shojaei's name.
the very same ansarifard is a prime example. then we have the likes of borhani (yes, he's been tried. but he is definitely closer to being a proper striker than shojaei), kaveh rezaei, hadi asghari, amraei, mosalman, .... etc. (beside the likes of khalili, seyedsalehi, rezaei, ...)
afterall these ARE forwards. instead of a slow midfielder who keeps dribbling and dribbling whether it's needed or not!

if you want to forcibly push an object that's not round into a round hole, then you will get better results with an oval, far quicker and better than a square.

==============

as for yesterday's team, my problem with the team selection, as stated before is 2 issues:
1- the team not having a striker
2- bringing karimi instead of trying someone like Jamshidian (having a magnificent season at sepahan) who's much younger and have years of use for us.
(also using 2 DM is pretty much useless. been discussed much in the past)

and as for the team performance & quality, which is another let down.
some ppl may say we had the possession and had many chances. but almost none of these chances looked like a rehearsed or practiced tactic. and yes, do keep the quality of the opponents in mind too.

a 2nd tier asian team would pose a far more difficult threat and wont allow even this little showing by TM! remember jordan game? and jordan isnt even a B grade team yet!


looks like ghotbi got what he wanted to relieve the pressure off him. a win ( no matter how watered down and lousy) against a piss poor team that can be dominated in AZADI. therefore once again, sweeping all the problems and defects of the team under the rug for quite a few fans

=====

... which brings me to how we Iranians are some of the most two-faced ppl on earth.
we slaughtered GN for scoring 2 goals IN MALAYSIA against the HOME team, in that EXTREMELY DIFFICULT CLIMATE and humidity and ... etc.
but suddenly scoring a 90th minute goal in AZADI, under absolutely no stress, with all our legionnaires compels some of us to actually praise the team's pitiful performance!!
I wonder what our priorities are

I think you just enjoy typing too much... I fully agreed with you that the team lacks target man the formation requires target man and Shojaei (although has exprience playing there) is not the man for it. Rest of the team is pretty much fixed... Karimi by no means is the problem of our football and all the leading and non-leading footballing nations on earth have above thirty year old veterens who bring a lot of weight to the team and also mentor the young guys.

Another point that I can put myself in your camp is the fact that I don't believe Ghotbi is a head coach (maybe in 10 years time).

[Doctor DOOM]

http://www.varzeshi.net/sport.php?go=02-88.12.15.jpg

[Martin-Reza]

A 4-4-2 also needs one target man upfront ideally, so the lack of a target man is a problem of Iranian football, not of the 4-2-3-1.

[zzgloo]

In the last 6 years, even during the world Cup.......may be only one out of 20 goal, scored by TM,was scored by our forwards.....
it has always been the midfield,or even central defensive players coming to score againt opponanats.....
Lack of offensive players, has been more seriouse than many think...and Ali Daei had been more unique than most think....
Indeed, the forward position, in our recent history, was used more as , DECOY ,..and to a large degree a waist of a spot on TM line up....
Usage of midfielders,instead of forwards...although, not an permenant answer, is defenetly not naive.......specialy since, we have good supply of midfielders.....
....It appears that, inability in heading the ball, and lack of killer instinct, is cultural, and hard problem to over come.......
And, it is no surprize, most foreign players invited to play in our domestic league, are infact forwards.....
And,we should never forget,TM is not responsible to create forward talents,....the league is.!!!!
While, individuals such as Ansari-Fard, should be nurtured !, yet TM should be careful not to waist time and chances, with pretenders ,and keep midfield talents on the bench!