"The old player takes the young player's spot"

[Martin-Reza]

Actually Branko always used 2 forwards against Laos for example, normally Daei and Enayati back then.

And I must say I cannot imagine a player with 30+ club appearances a year is somehow not elaborated correctly.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

^ internationally that is...

[Amin_]

1) Martin jaan, are you saying Daei was a better target forward at that time than Hashemian?!

If so, then we'll leave it at this.

If not, how come Daei took his spot as target forward and Hashemian had to play out of position (at least not as a target forward) in a 4-2-3-1 formation?!!

Had Branko not seen how unhappy and miserable Hashemian was coming more from the sides?!

===

2) Playing Daei against Asia's minors, where Iran (as a power house, at least back then) had most of the attacks and was present in the opponents box most of the time, is a totally different scenario as playing him at a WC against much stronger teams where Iran was actually playing counter football so far from the opponents box. Daei could still outmuscle these weak Asian players in the box and at least he won some aerial battles every now and then. But he was totally lost so far from the box.

Daei was totally lost in the middle of the pitch. He was barely found in the middle, let alone in the box.

No one can deny Daei's lack of pace and agility in those days; now was it really a smart move to play him in such games so far from the box with the conditions he was in back then?!

He wasn't even such type of a forward to play far from the box when he was at his prime, let alone in those conditions at the age of 37.

[Martin-Reza]

^ About the first point, well, in that case the question was if the Hashemian left striker plus Daei center forward combo was better than the Hashemian center forward and someone else left striker combo. And I must say Hash still was a better left striker than the rest and Daei a better central striker than the rest apart from Hash, that it was not a crazy decision to make the decision for the Daei & Hash combo.

Secondly, I think you are missing my point here a bit. I am not asking if it was a good idea to play Daei, I am interested in what the exact problem was created by that. Did Borhani miss his regular 30 mins against Laos to become a better striker than Daei or did Branko miss them in order to see that Borhani would be the better choice for WC?

Both things don't make sense to me.

Probably the Daei case is not the right example in order to discuss the general problem I am referring to, as many think Daei sucked and shouldn't have played anyway.

The problem I am talking about is a better old player playing instead of a worse but younger player. Since in the opinion of many this wasn't the case with Daei, this cannot be taken as example to analyze the issue.

Maybe we should rather stick to Karimi and Zanidpour.

Can Zanidpour really improve so much because of a few TM caps more that in the end it pays off not to have taken advantage of Karimi's availability? Or is there a chance Zanidpour already is a better and more effective player but can't show it because of lack of playing time?

This is the question I am seeking an answer to, not if Daei in particular should have played a few years back.

^ internationally that is...

I don't think players change much in international games. They are still the same players, you know .

[Adesor Vafaseya]

I don't think players change much in international games. They are still the same players, you know .

not the players, but alone being involved in an international game is much different than playing in IPL. The expereince is not the same. It can teach the players some more lessons.
specially in one to one situations to see how other players react/behave, also overall positioning of opposing side etc etc...

[Keano]

The problem with Daei is that he didn't know when was when (or enough being enough).

Usually discussions around older players and promising youngsters is inevitable in all teams. Usually however, the player that is older is not 37...but in his early 30s.

Daei was a liability. Everyone prior and at the world cup mentioned so. People from all over the world, not even intimate with our football, were asking why Daei is playing. I will never forget Rafael Marquez (Mexican defender) essentially letting go of marking Daei and joining in the attack - basically Daei was useless and immobile.

Our scoring problem in TM started exactly from the day Daei retired from TM! ever since he called the quits on TM our offense took the hit and experienced a lackluster series of striker one after another. C'mon please don't tell me that his late TM retirement killed the enthusiasm of all other strikers in the country, cuz 4 years is more than enough time for a motivated and young player to develop into a decent goal scorer, yet we still are in search of a semi-decent striker and haven't found it just yet!

[Martin-Reza]

not the players, but alone being involved in an international game is much different than playing in IPL. The expereince is not the same. It can teach the players some more lessons.
specially in one to one situations to see how other players react/behave, also overall positioning of opposing side etc etc...

But players also get international experience on club level, plus it's not like the likes of Zanidpour don't get any playing time at all. In your opinion, how much quality would a player like Borhani have gained from let's say 15 TM caps more in his early twenties? Maybe 0.5%, of his current strength and that is already a high estimate in my opinion.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

But players also get international experience on club level, plus it's not like the likes of Zanidpour don't get any playing time at all. In your opinion, how much quality would a player like Borhani have gained from let's say 15 TM caps more in his early twenties? Maybe 0.5%, of his current strength and that is already a high estimate in my opinion.

I truly believe its more than 0.5% (and i don't refer to Borhani.... in general, lets say a younger khalili..)

maybe we will never agree on this... but anyway I hope we both agree on this:


Azizi > Daei ???? ey?

[Martin-Reza]

Lol, in your dreams .

But honestly, just being curious, how much would you say would 15 caps more add to a players overall quality. Just roughly in your opinion. 10%, 20, 30, 50?

[Adesor Vafaseya]

Lol, in your dreams .

But honestly, just being curious, how much would you say would 15 caps more add to a players overall quality. Just roughly in your opinion. 10%, 20, 30, 50?

ok, very very theoretically;

age: 16 - 21 ---> 40%
age: 21 - 25 ---> 25%
age: 25 and above less than 10%

[Martin-Reza]

Wow, that is very far away from what I imagine. I agree general match praxis on professional level is that important, especially at young age, but I could in no way agree that a few national team caps a year could ever have any impact even close to that.

Just out of interest, how much would you rate the quality difference between Karimi and Zanidpour currently. I mean if Karimi's quality is 100%, how high would you rate Zanidpour?

[kaz]

I guess generally we all agree that in a case where a player plays for non-sporting reasons is of course inacceptable. But this is not the issue here, nor is it the question here if that was the case with Daei. No secret that I can only shake my head in disbelief when I hear accusations of that kind against Daei and Branko.

That's because you're naive, and a bit of a fanboy for both Daei and Branko.

Daei wasn't even one of the best forwards in the league, let alone the best, to keep playing Hashemian out of position. Everyone knows there are shady dealings - Daei himself admitted as such - and to pretend that the ONLY reason was because the coach thought he was worthy, hence he must have been worthy, is too silly to argue with. But it doesn't stop you bringing it up again and again to revise history. Try in 10 years when people might have forgotten Daei walking around the pitch being useless, it's too soon.

[kaz]

Our scoring problem in TM started exactly from the day Daei retired from TM! ever since he called the quits on TM our offense took the hit and experienced a lackluster series of striker one after another. C'mon please don't tell me that his late TM retirement killed the enthusiasm of all other strikers in the country, cuz 4 years is more than enough time for a motivated and young player to develop into a decent goal scorer, yet we still are in search of a semi-decent striker and haven't found it just yet!

Actually, we scored plenty of goals when Daei left. What was the problem was that our replacement forwards weren't scoring. You can argue as if Daei was better than them; but you'd have to have not watched many matches in his last few years to say that. I refuse to believe any sane fan who watched Daei's last years would contend he was still our best forward.

All the players that should have been used once Daei hit his 30s were wasted. Chances were sporadic and inconsistent for the others. It's no wonder we struggled to find a proper replacement. Anyways, it's not like Daei was a scoring machine for TM in the last few years. He either scored penalties or tap-ins put on a plate for him. He was at that stage as useless player as Ostad Asadi.

[Martin-Reza]

That's because you're naive, and a bit of a fanboy for both Daei and Branko.

Daei wasn't even one of the best forwards in the league, let alone the best, to keep playing Hashemian out of position. Everyone knows there are shady dealings - Daei himself admitted as such - and to pretend that the ONLY reason was because the coach thought he was worthy, hence he must have been worthy, is too silly to argue with. But it doesn't stop you bringing it up again and again to revise history. Try in 10 years when people might have forgotten Daei walking around the pitch being useless, it's too soon.

The only reason you need ridicuolous conspiracy theories is because you need to find an explanation for your twisted view on football. Since there is no rational reason to bring reality in accordance with yor views, you need a "fire exit" like a completely baseless theory with not the slightest proof. Hashemian btw almost always played left striker at Bochum as long as Thomas Christiansen was there. I know it because I saw many Bochum games live at that time. How many did you see?

So prove your allegations against Daei and Branko or quit it, seriously I am sick of it. Otherwise I can also claim you are a 7-year-old girl from the Bahamas. I have as much proof for that as you have for Daei being the big brain behind Branko who was his willing servant, lol, what a bullshit. And you dare to say such shit on F+.

[kaz]

The only reason you need ridicuolous conspiracy theories is because you need to find an explanation for your twisted view on football. Since there is no rational reason to bring reality in accordance with yor views, you need a "fire exit" like a completely baseless theory with not the slightest proof. Hashemian btw almost always played left striker at Bochum as long as Thomas Christiansen was there. I know it because I saw many Bochum games live at that time. How many did you see?

So prove your allegations against Daei and Branko or quit it, seriously I am sick of it. Otherwise I can also claim you are a 7-year-old girl from the Bahamas. I have as much proof for that as you have for Daei being the big brain behind Branko who was his willing servant, lol, what a bullshit. And you dare to say such shit on F+.

It's not a conspiracy theory and it doesn't even need much imagination. You're dealing with people here, not robots. They have biases and they have their own ambitions which could be to the detriment of the team.

BTW, Hashemian was not playing left striker in TM, he was playing Left midfield.

You need to quit defending the obvious. I like you but your fanboyness is not becoming from someone who writes on this site for public consumption. As I said, even your hero (Daei) has talked about goings-on behind the scenes and how they influence choices. Why not for Daei himself? Do you think it's a coincidence that Karimi and half the team fell out with Daei at the WC and that in turn Karimi refused to play for Branko? Stop being naive.

It's very simple, let me break it down for you:

a) Daei was no longer a viable option for TM, especially 90 minutes every game.
b) Branko was under immense pressure throughout his last 1-2 years and needed all the support he could get.
c) Daei is a very powerful and influential man in Iranian football.
d) Daei rubbed Branko's back
e) Branko rubbed Daei's back.

Although I am not sure in which order d) or e) come.