Is international football too big for Ghalenoei?

[Martin-Reza]

Looking at his coaching achievements in IPL and then comparing them to his results at international level, both in ACL as well as with TM, there is a rather big discrepancy.

While he was very successful domestically and still is, he had a rather distastrous ACL campaign with Esteghlal, a disappointing Asian Cup in which his full-strength squad was eliminated by a injury-shook Korean team in quarter finals and now, at halftime of ACL group stage with Sepahan, his team is the weakest Iranian representative with only 2 points out of 3 games.

Not to forget about his failure to send a squad list in time and the following elimination of SS from ACL. Some might think this cannot be counted in, but actually it could be a sign for a rather amateurish working approach.

Now is this all just more a co-incidence? Is it simply an overall weakness of Iranian football these circumstances are a result of? Or is there something more demanding in international football GN just can't answer? If yes, what's that in specific?

In the end there are coaches who had more success on international level, such as Bonacic (ACL final), Ivankovic (AC 3rd), Daei (ACL - undefeated in group stage and advancing to knockout stage), Denizli (ACL quarter finals) or Vingada (ACL knockout stage), but some of them were not closely as successful as Ghalenoei domestically.

So is there something about it or is there no logic behind this?

[Doctor DOOM]

No. I dont agree that int'l football is too much for GN.

I feel bad for GN. today he was extremely unlucky.

the loss of sepahan is not becoz it was weak. it was becoz it didnt have 2 key players (aghili and ridha). and I'm pretty sure this wouldnt have been the result.

the second thing which is even more important is sepahan does not have a 3rd reliable striker. and if any one of its 2 main strikers gets injured or lose form (like sepahan's ridha and torre, respectively), they just dont have a dependable route to score goals for them, no matter how well the rest of the team plays (like the first game in ksa)

GN must seriously think about this and add at least 1, if not 2 reliable strikers. otherwise, it will bow out despite playing well !

if int'l football was too much for him, his team wouldnt have overwhelmed the saudi team IN saudi. sepahan isnt leading the table ONLY becoz of its strikers (or lack of reliability of them)
torre is not an int'l player and he hasnt done jack.
ridha also is selfish and may score goals in IPL, but int'lly, you need to be more than that.

GN's over-reliance on only two strikers for all his plans only remind me of another coach who over-relied on a select few players for long periods.
but when their biggest occasion rose, they either lost form or were injured and the team suffered!

this is identical to that scenario except that GN has no options to add players since the roster is closed for the season.

========================

as for calling his TM "disappointing", especially given the time he was given and the juncture he came in, I'd say he did quite well.
remember he was changed only becoz of a DRAW against the one of the very best asian nations, south korea.
that's all.

and if you call that "disappointing", I'd love to know what you call daei's and ghotbi's
that is if we are impartial.

========================

but this is just the height of it. you're blaming not sending the list to afc on the coach?
from someone who says he's a sports journalist and reads dozens of journals and magazines and .... etc etc etc etc etc .... you must surely know it is definitely NOT the job of the coach to send lists to afc.
there's a thing called club administration and management, who are responsible for all admin tasks.
so I wonder in which magazine it is written such admin tasks are within the purview & vocation of a football coach.

this is purely a low blow and I'm sure you said it in jest and a joke. certainly didnt mean it seriously.

[maij]

A Good question ....

very brief and right to the point , I say that I don't really know if GN is a bit outclassed in Asia , although I tend to lean on the theory of "It is one of those odd things in football " theory that does not have logic , nor a definite answer , and no scientific explanation.

Else , how can we explain the marvelous start by Abdolsamad Marfavi in Asian Champions league ???


Anyway....I believe the jury is out on this question. Perhaps in a few years or more attempts , we can be better judges of GN's Asian adventuress.

[Martin-Reza]

A Good question ....

very brief and right to the point , I say that I don't really know if GN is a bit outclassed in Asia , although I tend to lean on the theory of "It is one of those odd things in football " theory that does not have logic , nor a definite answer , and no scientific explanation.

Else , how can we explain the marvelous start by Abdolsamad Marfavi in Asian Champions league ???


Anyway....I believe the jury is out on this question. Perhaps in a few years or more attempts , we can be better judges of GN's Asian adventuress.

It's indeed a bit odd when you see the ACL results of some coaches and then compare their IPL results. So I am wondering is this simply one of the unlogic things in football or is there some kind of sense behind it. GN being an example, Marfavi and Denizli others.

No. I dont agree that int'l football is too much for GN.

With who don't you agree? I was just posing a question, not claiming this would be the case, just to avoid misunderstandings.

the loss of sepahan is not becoz it was weak. it was becoz it didnt have 2 key players (aghili and ridha). and I'm pretty sure this wouldnt have been the result.

I agree this plays a role, but I am not asking this question because of today's game, but because of the sum of Ghalenoei's teams' international results.

as for calling his TM "disappointing", especially given the time he was given and the juncture he came in, I'd say he did quite well.
remember he was changed only becoz of a DRAW against the one of the very best asian nations, south korea.
that's all.

I don't want to go into the same discussion as usual, but if you look at Korea's squad that day and realize how many great players, including Park Ji Sung, were mising and compare it to our squad, the quarterfinal exit has to be called a disappointment.

[zzgloo]

I do not believe, it is only GN,...in my opinion,all our IRANIAN local coaches,come short in international venues...
There is also another unexplainable phenomena, which I am not sure if it could be related to our coaches doing bad in international games...and that is, our players, local players, play a faster pace football, in international venues !!!...has any onelse noticed that ?
If we assume these two are related, one can conclude...the slow pace of our football,is not our players fault, but it is the coachs' fault.

[Paradigm]

I agree with Martin, based on all available evidence and history GN can't do international football. I clearly recall in the Summer 2007 he took the TM to Mexico for a friendly and got beaten 4-0; that is twice worse than the 3-1 from World Cup a year earlier. The reason is probably mostly psychological.

[maij]

I agree with Martin, based on all available evidence and history GN can't do international football. I clearly recall in the Summer 2007 he took the TM to Mexico for a friendly and got beaten 4-0; that is twice worse than the 3-1 from World Cup a year earlier. The reason is probably mostly psychological.

With all due respect , this is one seriously flawed theory.

How can you judge a coach based on one meaningless friendly in Mexico where TM played with 2nd string team against a powerful opponents ???

Nice try ...But!

[toofan]

ill give him till the end of the qualifiying capaign and see.

he did ok with tm.beaten at penalties isnt bad, could happen to brazil.

[Martin-Reza]

^ Well, the question is why you don't beat them in 120 minutes, when they miss like 5 key players and we got a full squad. In 2004 it was the other way round and still we won in 90 mins. This surely was a disappointment, such as his game in Mexico and all of his ACL campaigns. I agree any single of those results are rather meaningless, but all together it draws a picture which at least justifies the question if there is some logic behind it.

[Doctor DOOM]

not unnecessarily defending GN, coz he has his faults too.
but fairness is a good thing to keep in mind.

1- the mexico friendly was GN's only (or perhaps one of the two) loss, and as majid said with a 2nd string team, after a massive journey, to the very tough mexico team's home.

2- SKorea game(s): if he draws with them, ppl say why didnt he beat them.
then he beats them in Iran (2-0), ppl say "Oh, it was not korea's main team"
looks like no matter what the guy does, he gets the stick!!!

like I said, FAIRNESS is a good thing to have.

3- I totally agree with bahram on the PACE of football shown by our players in int'l games, which is higher than the IPL games.
could it be the drive or chance of exposure (and the subsequent hiring by foreign clubs)?

but we cant really compare IPL and int'l games.
today Zob played almost a flawless game against a very tough, physical and star-studded team led by one of the best coaches in the world. but the same zob has drawn and lost to very mediocre teams in IPL (like the loss to ...rah-ahan or mes -cant remember which one).

but trying to relate it to GN's predicament, today Zob showed having someone to finish at least a third of ur chances is a blessing for ur team if it plays correct football.
sepahan literally walked over al shabab in saudi. they were miles ahead of the saudi team in every dept. but becoz their chances were not finished, they lost the 2 points.
same thing in isfahan. and I even dare say in uzbekistan. if toure was even a fraction more precise sepahan would have had at least 5, if not 7 points now. (not to mention that yesterday, rahmati vaghe'an reed!!!! )

[Martin-Reza]

What Sepahan showed in KSA was pure counter tactics. Sepahan was in no way able to dominate the game, they just defended deep and sent long balls forward to the 2 fast strikers.

No doubt, that was effective and looking at the numerous outstanding chances they wasted a win would have been more than deserved, but actually it wasn't strong football, it was a passive game approach an underdog uses against a stronger team. Now against teams not attacking as much as the Saudis, Sepahan looked rather helpless.

Which actually surpises me, as Sepahan surely deal with very defensive minded teams all the time in IPL, and that successfully. So maybe it's just con-incidential after all?

But the whole thread is not just about Sepahan's 3 games this season. It's also about GN's TM spell and his 6 games with SS last year. The overall package simply is so much worse than his IPL record that I am not sure anymore if there is nothing behind it.

[Keano]

With all due respect , this is one seriously flawed theory.

How can you judge a coach based on one meaningless friendly in Mexico where TM played with 2nd string team against a powerful opponents ???

Nice try ...But!

Actually talking of that match, playing a mighty team like Mexico with our reserves was just beyond me, what was the whole point of flying all the way to Mexico in preparation for such important tournament (AC) and playing a squad which BTW did not represent us in AC? what was the whole point of that long trip to Mexico anyway?

[maij]

Actually talking of that match, playing a mighty team like Mexico with our reserves was just beyond me, what was the whole point of flying all the way to Mexico in preparation for such important tournament (AC) and playing a squad which BTW did not represent us in AC? what was the whole point of that long trip to Mexico anyway?

It beats me , why Team Melii traveled for nearly 20 flying hours to play Mexico in a remote city !!!

I can't remember all the details except for GN complaining about it specially since he could not get his full squad.

Although playing Mexico is always a nice challenge , but this one was the most chaotic , ill timed and bad tempered friendlies in decades.

He is the match detail Mexico -Iran

[zzgloo]

To be fair.....the game against Mexico,was played in San-luis Potosi,...under an ideal situation for mexicans and least Ideal for a foriegn team......and to GN fairness, he came to that game with many players missing, and a offensive game plan....he did not plan to defend and keep score down, he planed for an offensive game.....and never played it conservative.
.....
I do not believe,Iranian league has any better coach to offer than GN.

[Doctor DOOM]

What Sepahan showed in KSA was pure counter tactics. Sepahan was in no way able to dominate the game, they just defended deep and sent long balls forward to the 2 fast strikers.

No doubt, that was effective and looking at the numerous outstanding chances they wasted a win would have been more than deserved, but actually it wasn't strong football, it was a passive game approach an underdog uses against a stronger team. Now against teams not attacking as much as the Saudis, Sepahan looked rather helpless.

Which actually surpises me, as Sepahan surely deal with very defensive minded teams all the time in IPL, and that successfully. So maybe it's just con-incidential after all?

But the whole thread is not just about Sepahan's 3 games this season. It's also about GN's TM spell and his 6 games with SS last year. The overall package simply is so much worse than his IPL record that I am not sure anymore if there is nothing behind it.

WOW!
1- if bonacic employs counterattacking and defensive tactics, we're all "bah bah"
if GN does the same, we're all "poo, poo" !!!

2- sepahan in second half was not only a passive, reactionary team, as the game wore on, they dominated the saudi team. maybe not totally sitting on them in the saudi half, but when shabab came to sepahan's half, it was clear they couldnt do anything and rahmati wasnt all that bothered.
the number of chances they got also shows they controlled the game's pace and rhythm. that's domination too. but a bit deep, but nevertheless in control of the game


3- GN's TM has the best record of wins and losses among the past many coaches. so even here, there's no substance to doubt him.
he had 1 loss ( afriendly to mexico IN mexico) if I remember correctly. majid can correct me.
and if we're supposed to cheer for beating the crapped out panama and azerbaijan and singapore, then why dont we do the same for scoring 8 goals against jamaica?


so basically what we are left with is ONLY SS's campaign in ACL last year.
6 games, 4 draws and 2 losses.
you want to criticize the man on this crummy record? you're well justified.

but include TM and this year's sepahan?
absolutely not.

=============

on why the mexico game:
I remember even GN was against making this trip. but he was FORCED to do so as the contract with mexico was already binding and the IFF HAD TO send the team. in the month before the game, they tried to weasel out of it and apparently they were warned. so they HAD TO send a tired, shambolic team there just to satisfy the terms of the contract.
that's why they spent as little days as possible on the trip, which meant the team was already dead-beat after going across 3 continents by match-day, with only nekunam in the team, facing mexico.
4-0?
hell, in that state, even if they had lost 10-0 I wouldnt have been surprised.

============

I have my own grievances against GN and he has plenty of faults. but we cant just pick on ANYthing to go at him.

btw, it's very easy to beat a man already beaten to the floor (with reference to the band-wagon thread in the general thread, where all sorts of hezb-e baad fans rushing to pile on suddenly).

but let us do so when the man is standing or hiding behind a stupid score-line and generally sweeping all the faults and lacks under the carpet of "scoreline"??? heh! hardly anyone would dares to!