Foreign or national coach ?!

[maij]

It seems that the UAE league is not going to have any Iranian players this season. This is the first season of the UAE , since it re-opened its league for foreigners , with no Iranian participation.

The significance of this event should not go unnoticed and it is related to the subject matter. This is the lowest that Iran football has reached and another proof that the weakness of a football is much more comprehensive and broad and not confined to the supposedly weak domestic coaches. The players are under-performing and aging. Lack of professional attitude has played an important role in Iran;s football woes.

[zzgloo]

It seems that the UAE league is not going to have any Iranian players this season. This is the first season of the UAE , since it re-opened its league for foreigners , with no Iranian participation.

The significance of this event should not go unnoticed and it is related to the subject matter. This is the lowest that Iran football has reached and another proof that the weakness of a football is much more comprehensive and broad and not confined to the supposedly weak domestic coaches. The players are under-performing and aging. Lack of professional attitude has played an important role in Iran;s football woes.

That is indeed very significant.....but defently not surprizing, nor unfair.....

1-The Branko Era was a myth..based on carefuly chosen freindly opponanats.....and over exajurated FIFA rating.........
that caused,superficial teams to go with the hopla, and hire so many Iranian players..whom realy would not have been hired otherwise....
The Hopal was so big, even it fooled big teams,such as bayern Munich....twice !!!!.......
All our European legioners,were sub-par, and desparatly hanging on to thier post....just to improve thier football, just to save more of that Euro,and exchange with Tooman !!!!...............Our European legioners played football, as if they work in bank, and just punched in , and punched out.....,and begged to stay....

2-The system of poletics, and demoralazation of masses....has also something to do with this.

.................................................. ............................................

More important than, foreign coach for TM.................we need foreign coach for our clubs.....as clubs ,not only do not produce enough talents, but also, they waist them.................the domestic couches have nothing to teach...nor there is any chance for them to improve thier coaching !....as thier jobs, are uncontested, within a fake league....with fake financing.....
for a fake rating !!

All these have caused us, to get behind South Korea,and japan.........

We Need forign Club coaches......new poletcial system...........

TM coach is secoundary !

[maij]

I guess your are being a bit too severe and hyper critical of local coaches, Bahram jan. I would like to debate with you this issue as I find it quite important , interesting and possibly there is a solution in what we both , or other members , suggests in this matter.

The first point is that , no third world country including the rich Arab countries of the Gulf , can afford to host a large number of foreigners to coach their football teams. It has never happened and I seriously doubt that it will happen in my lifetime. It is a simple matter of economics.

So...a country such as Iran HAS NO CHOICE but to depend on their national coaches at all levels from school to pas koocheh , to youth and all the way up to senior levels.


Coaching , like playing football , singing is a performing art turned into profession. It is "Skill Based profession". Even if you send 1 million coaches to university , it does not mean that you can qualify them to a level that guarantee you winning the World Cup. While investment and ground work is undeniably important , it is NOT the ultimate solution for success.

Take Spain as an example... After 80 years of top level football , it has just won the World Cup...what about those millions and billions of dollars that has been poured into football for all this time ? How come they did not have the proper coaches to win them the WC until now? Clubs like Barcelona and Real Madrid are richer than many countries... so, was all those failures attributed to bad Spanish coaching in spite of the fact that thousands of top level foreign football coaches have worked in Spain and with Spanish clubs?


Affect of coaches on team performance:

I have no figure and I have not seen any expert even suggesting a percentage, but it is in the lower percentages. If a perfect coach would guarantee success , then life would have been easy. The Saudis would have bought them and won the World Cup.

Success in football requires much much more than skilled coaches.



Next..... we shall talk about being an Iranian coach...

[Doctor DOOM]

just wanted to chip in on the issue of "effect of a coach on the team":

I think a coach has PLENTY of impact on the team's fortunes.
(winning trophies is a different matter. but realizing a team's true potential is absolutely within this topic)

we'll keep "teaching the basics or the game" for the club coach's requisites

1- starting from selection of the squad, which can go very wrong at times, the coach's impact can be felt.
for example neglecting to choose reserves for his main players, for occasions where the main player fails
or
2- neglecting to add certain types of players that add an extra dimension to the team, wide players, technical players, physical ones, pacey ones, tall ones, .... . you miss one and your team will be found wanting in that dept.
or
3- adopting wrong tactics for games
or
4- selection of the starting 11 could range from perfect to absolutely deficient
or
5- ability (or lack of) reading the game properly and making the right/wrong changes during the game ... or making the wrong subs or not subbing the right players or ....
or
6- wrong use of a player (in the wrong post or wrong tactics or ..)
or
..... etc.

so a coach can have a DIRECT and detrimental impact on the fortunes of a team. any of such decisions have been shown to make or break a team.
(btw, we have suffered from all the examples I've given above. so that is first hand experience speaking)


so you could have the perfect pool of players in a country with perfect infrastructure and development and ... . but when your coach adopts the wrong tactics or chooses the wrong players for the wrong occasion or .... , it can all go very very wrong for you.
we shdnt discount the impact of the coach. not for short term (for a particular game) or long term (trying to change the nature of football or making wholesale changes to it).

*********************

and I got the examples to prove it too:

lets not go very far and stay fresh.
1- a coach adopting the wrong tactics for a game
J-Low's decision to suddenly change germans' tactics and play a cautious, defensive game against spain back-fired massively.
dont tell me there's such a massive gap between spain and england/argentina. there isnt. in fact, I'd say spain, struggling to score goals (more on this later) would have been less of a threat than a team that had Messi and higuaine and tevez and had scored sh*tload of goals a couple of days before. J-Low could have stuck to his tactics and who knows what would have happened.

2- coach changing the nature of football
holland was known for their free flowing, total football that gave barca its brand of beautiful style and ... . but they never got anywhere in WC's.
so Van Marwjick comes in and changes the nature of their game and adds more steel, toughness and physicality (by picking different sort of players, diff sort of tactics, prep'ns and practice , ...etc) and they almost pay dirt (had Robben put away ANY of his 2 chances, who knows what would have been the final result)

3- coach making the right or wrong decisions on player selection. subbing, ..
Del Bosque kept insisting on the mis-firing torres and gave him plenty of chances. but the guy was not in form, no matter what.
so he makes the right decision to bench him in favor of the young, pacey Pedro, who gave the germans absolute hell and almost lead to a 2nd goal (had he been a bit less selfish).
contrast that with branko's insistence on daei's presence
or ...

4- coach's inability to deal w stars or team harmony (player desertion), .. etc
Domeneque's disastrous fortunes with the la-dida, hollywood stars of france and ...

[zzgloo]

I guess this is the core of the issue here.
you just dont want to see/accept the likes of jalali, GN, daei, Dr. Z, Ebrahimzadeh, ... are better than ghotbi

Payman jaan......with your permission,I trasfered your last comment to here from the other thread.....as I like you to know,I pay attention to your views,and indeed they are intelegent.

You are correct....as : " This is the core of the issue ".

1- tallebi and Mohajerani were different...as they were in a way,students of foreign managements, similar to Ghotbi .

2-The key issue....acctualy is not in coahings in IRAN......it is with management in IRAN............

management in IRAN is the single most backward aspect of our society !!!!

.................................................. .................................................. .

[maij]

[Doctor DOOM]

Doc ...


Every coach has a huge drawback as soon as the referee blows the whistle for the start of the game. The coach can shout his head off, but that is neither here or there as the players might ignore him or even if they listen, there is no guarantee that it works. The coach cannot score the winning goal, the coach cannot save a penalty and the coach cannot sub all the players who are not performing …!!!


But he certainly has a direct influence before the ref blows the start whistle and even during the game. if he chooses the wrong players who are not in form, then it is obvious the team will struggle.
and the substitution is another way to address the above issues
while I agree that not all blam shd befall the hapless coaches, but the radius of his influence is far greater than an individual player's. so whether we like it or not, most of the blame fall on his shoulder.


..... but do we really know why Capello did not play a forward like Crouch and believed in a player who scores once every decade ( Emille Heskey) ...does that indicate a weakness in Capello ?

It could be he decided on having a striker who can hold onto the ball and feed rooney or lampard or ... . basically a physical presence up front. crouch is a totally different type of player and playing him points to a very different tactics. basically a target forward for crosses and aerial game plan. 2 very different tactics.
so yes, capello decided to opt for one manner of tactics over another. nothing wrong with this. as you say humans are not perfect and are prone to mistakes.
these are decisions that sometimes may pay dirt, and some times may not. cant fault the coach much on this. and the coach can justify them.
but there are decisions that are clearly wrong ones and many things point to that. so the coach wont have much to justify them.


My answer will always remain the same. Coaches know their players best, they live with them , they observe them , they train with them , talk with and about them...and the list goes on ......and if they exclude one player and chose another they ULTIMATELY have good reasons for it. To you it might be a mistake, but to the coach, it is what he believes was right at the time taking into account all the factors unknown to us.


Anyway., we should not drifty from the core question. So , in your opinion , how much percentage the coach has on a team overall performance ?

A LOT.
I believe we can categorize the requisites for a successful team.
categories like the underlying matters like infrastructure, development, and facilities are as detrimental as other categories like inherent talent pool of a country or the coaching factor or organizational capabilities of a fed'n.
so within these categories, the coaching factor is quite important or as vital as the rest.


Just one question for you, Doc: If the coach is so important, how come a World Cup winning coach such as Del Bosque failed to train / instruct / guide or even hype a world class player such as Fernando Torres to score even a single goal ???

as far as I remember I didnt say the nat'l coach shd train or teach or hype or ... a player. so if you've seen me say any of this, plz point it out to me.

in fact, I brought up the torres issue to exemplify how a coach can and SHOULD bench a world-famous, star player like torres if he doesnt deliver. and that is among the positive decisions that a coach can make .... compared to other coaches who get stuck on an illogical belief that time and time again proves to be a mistake, and yet, the coach insists on them.

[zzgloo]

Coaches in IRAN should be thrown to the sea !

We all,at least for those of us who have extensive connection with IRANIAN society,is clear,that management,is the single most handicap in our country.........., it is not just disfounctional.....it is disruptive,and counter productive,and damaging !

Why we do not have to accept that as fact of life in our society ?.......because, football is different than ,lets say working in the bank....football is an international phenamyna,and in constant relation with international world....,hence,it must be treated with international norms !

.................................................. ..................................................

We saw, South Korea,japan,and new Zeland,and australia........
what did all these teams had incommon ?....
Why did they perform adequatly ?.....
did they have a longer history of football than we do ?....
did they have superior talents ?........
There was no complecated systems, there was no super talents............just deciplined organization !,and this world cup proved it to us, that, football is not a rocket scince, and is simpler than appears,..at least for our level.
.................................................. .................................................. ...

Today's football, is based on systematic,organized,team work,that aside from diciplined system,its players have basic foundemental skills.....
we have No player who can adequatly control the ball sent to him,no player who can shoot from far, no player who can head adequatly, no player who can manage his emotions,no player with killer instict,....in general.no intelegent player ( with some exceptions ) who can see the big picture!!

.................................................. ..................................................


Our coaches,have no organization themselevs,let alone creating one on the pitch.....they are part of that fvcked up managerial system.
They are not challanged to be better,themselevs....nor have any opportunity to learn from other better coaches...they work in a closed network of inefficient system.....

Our coaches,can not teach, basic skills,becuase,they have no international kowledge,nor will for progress, or presure of a competitive system.....

that is why ;

1- Our futsal talents who need less coaching ,and less system,,thrive !
2-that is why,most our talents get waisted,instead of flourishing.
3-that is why,our youth talents do not add any to thier skills after a long football life in IRAN, and stay with what they leant from thier youth.
4- No control of ball is taught,no shooting is taught,no vedio analysis for players, no organizational difference among coaches,no deciplin in the lucker room, no psycological motivations,no fear of exclusionsetc,etc....

,................................................. .................................................. ...

A typical, coaching sessions,in IRAIAN football clubs consist :

jogging around for half an hour
work out ,perhaps for another half an hour
work on creating some mismatches,for up-coming opponants
.................................................. .................................................. ....

there are no teachings !!!
No teaching of psycology,for killer instinct
No teaching by videos foreign games,and skills .
No teaching of Shootings...
No teaching of heading......
No teaching of judgements.....
No teaching of systems......
.................................................. ...............................................

there is yet another ,coaching handicap in IRAN, and that is :
the little they know, they would not share,because they are afraid others will learn and challange thier JOB .
A Stupid Cycle !.....that is why,the little knowledge of coaching is not transfered, the system is not capable of creating different coaches,with new ideas........
It is a same old,bangging around,and protent there are secrets no one els know........and low class of competition, and hundereds of 0-0 results among rah-ahan,abumoslem,pas,booshehr,etc,etc,can not uncover the level of incompetancy.

In business,transfering new ideas,and exchanges ,and fear of losing work,and competetive system,along with fresh iseas from others,insures progress....coaching in IRAN, is a dead-end, " MORD AAB ", with a rotten water,that does not recieve fresh water from streams, and is blocked to run to the sea !
That is why,our coaches need to be thrown to the sea !!

[Martin-Reza]

Although I was certainly surprised about the success of teams with Asian coaches, I still prefer any somewhat medicore foreign coach over any Iranian coach.

I must reconsider my negative position about Asian coaches in general, still I see a huge difference in terms of education and professionalism between Iranian and Eastern Asian coaches.

[Martin-Reza]

It seems that the UAE league is not going to have any Iranian players this season. This is the first season of the UAE , since it re-opened its league for foreigners , with no Iranian participation.

The significance of this event should not go unnoticed and it is related to the subject matter. This is the lowest that Iran football has reached and another proof that the weakness of a football is much more comprehensive and broad and not confined to the supposedly weak domestic coaches. The players are under-performing and aging. Lack of professional attitude has played an important role in Iran;s football woes.

It is indeed sad that we have almost no legionnaires left anymore. However, the recent ACL performances of our clubs gave me the impression our club football finally is improving. This is the very much needed basis for successful football and should in middle term assure a strong national team and more players going to Europe again. Yet, it has to be seen if the introduction of IPL finally brings us forward a lot or if my impression was wrong.

[maij]

[maij]

Football is not a rocket science .

[maij]

It is indeed sad that we have almost no legionnaires left anymore. However, the recent ACL performances of our clubs gave me the impression our club football finally is improving. This is the very much needed basis for successful football and should in middle term assure a strong national team and more players going to Europe again. Yet, it has to be seen if the introduction of IPL finally brings us forward a lot or if my impression was wrong.

I am an avid believer that a strong league reflects directly and favorably on the national team. Saying that , I still think that IPL has a longish way to go to reach a level that one can be proud and confident with. There are still a lot of shortcomings in the league system in Iran as the poor management is becoming chronical.

BUT...it is a gallant effort and hopefully improvement will be apparent in a few years.

About Iranian players in Europe , I really cannot see an exodus anytime soon. We might have one or two , here and there but those will be exceptions. We have to remember that success of the Team Melli is the catalyst for demand for Iranian player by European teams. Something that last happened in 1997 and 1998 ( Success in Asian Cup 96 and reaching the World Cup in 1998)

[Doctor DOOM]

Doc , Again you are talking about "Coach performance " versus "Coach factor".

Who is the best , absolutely the best coach in the world ? Del Boske , Mourinho , Wenger , Ferguesson ... ? let us confine it to those.

Fine....if anyone of them comes to Iran , what are the chance of winning the Asian Cup or the world Cup ?

Sounds like an unrealistic scenario, doesn’t it ? well…..because what you are claiming on the coach factor is over-blown in my opinion. Del Boske will not have Iniesta, Xabi or Ramos in his team in Azadi. He will not have a wealth of talents in the IPL like the la liga , he will not have the facilities , the culture , the work ethics, the professional to ensure that he produces a good team.


Staying with Spain…SO…if a coach has a “LOT” of influence, I want to know how come he did not manage to influence one player , and a World Class player for that matter ? where is that magical influence?

Where I come from , Peyman jan , the word and the concept of teamwork is a religion. In our industry, there is no such thing as “individual factor” when it comes to profit and loss or safety and disaster. It is very much like football. Influences vary and are circumstantial.

YES, leadership is important and crucial, but it is NOT the defining factor. When Cyrus the Great, invaded Asia Minor and Europe , he had a great army who fought for him . Despite his greatness , he could not have done it with a lackluster army.

I did say:

I believe we can categorize the requisites for a successful team.
categories like the underlying matters like infrastructure, development, and facilities are as detrimental as other categories like inherent talent pool of a country or the coaching factor or organizational capabilities of a fed'n.
so within these categories, the coaching factor is quite important or as vital as the rest.

so, a nation's/team's success is MULTI-FACTORIAL (if you like to use the term "factor"). and one of those is the 'coach factor'.

which means if we get any of those guys, we shd do far better in whatever that is within a coach's purview, such as those that I enumerated.
and no, it doesnt mean it will cover the other shortcomings in the other categories (infrastructure, development, facilities, organization, talent, ... etc). but at least we wont see as many foolish mistakes during the games or subbing or selection or ... etc.

if you are looking for a one-solution scenario, well, it doesnt exist.
so there is NO 'single defining factor'. a country can have the very best facilities and organization and federation, with lots of money to throw at their problems, like uae ... and still suffer. why? becoz the other factors are lagging.
another country may have a humongous pool of talent with very intelligent, hard working players. ... and still drown in mediocrity.
again, becoz it lags in other areas.
that's why I said it is MULTI-FACTORIAL

again with the analogies: to win a race having only the best tyres is no insurance of success. there are other factors, such as engine, driver, chasis, weight, horse-power, ... .
and each factor is approached separately for correction and hopefully, simultaneously.

[maij]

I did say:



so, a nation's/team's success is MULTI-FACTORIAL (if you like to use the term "factor"). and one of those is the 'coach factor'.

which means if we get any of those guys, we shd do far better in whatever that is within a coach's purview, such as those that I enumerated.
and no, it doesnt mean it will cover the other shortcomings in the other categories (infrastructure, development, facilities, organization, talent, ... etc). but at least we wont see as many foolish mistakes during the games or subbing or selection or ... etc.

if you are looking for a one-solution scenario, well, it doesnt exist.
so there is NO 'single defining factor'. a country can have the very best facilities and organization and federation, with lots of money to throw at their problems, like uae ... and still suffer. why? becoz the other factors are lagging.
another country may have a humongous pool of talent with very intelligent, hard working players. ... and still drown in mediocrity.
again, becoz it lags in other areas.
that's why I said it is MULTI-FACTORIAL

again with the analogies: to win a race having only the best tyres is no insurance of success. there are other factors, such as engine, driver, chasis, weight, horse-power, ... .
and each factor is approached separately for correction and hopefully, simultaneously.

Well , thank you very much..... I have no quarrel about that.

So you DO believe that success in football is MULTI-FACTORIAL and the coach is one part of that. perhaps the disagreement comes in your belief that the coach has a LOT of influence , while I do believe that the coach factor is as variable as the circumstances. There is no such thing as fixed value. One day a coach has tremendous factor , while on the other his contribution and effort is marginal.


But the most important point that I firmly beleive in is that , you cannot buy success in football. You cannot bring in a foreign coach and expect him to mend your chronic problems over-night. A single or a group of foreigners cannot and will not adjust your culture and worth ethics, nor can they improve your training faculties , or produce players of Karimi standard en mass.

Va Salam