Foreign or national coach ?!

[Martin-Reza]

I am an avid believer that a strong league reflects directly and favorably on the national team. Saying that , I still think that IPL has a longish way to go to reach a level that one can be proud and confident with. There are still a lot of shortcomings in the league system in Iran as the poor management is becoming chronical.

BUT...it is a gallant effort and hopefully improvement will be apparent in a few years.

About Iranian players in Europe , I really cannot see an exodus anytime soon. We might have one or two , here and there but those will be exceptions. We have to remember that success of the Team Melli is the catalyst for demand for Iranian player by European teams. Something that last happened in 1997 and 1998 ( Success in Asian Cup 96 and reaching the World Cup in 1998)

Well, TM success and amount of legionnaires are heavily correlated. One thing is pushing the other and we were in a "positive escalation" for years and somehow managed to turn it into a negative one. Now it will be very hard to break that circle. We need a lucky shot at next WCQ. If we make it to WC some players will make it to Europe again, which will improve TM performances and results and help further players to be scouted and signed and so on...

[zzgloo]

Bahram Jan.
You have pinpointed the woes of Iranian society quite well in fact , and from my own experience, I totally agree about the sub-standard management in Iran amongst other weaknesses.

You also referred to the chaotic system , cultural issues such as morality and work ethics.

So , Bahram jan….if you have a country with such fundamental problems . How can you expect a foreigner to thrive and deliver the goods in such environment ?

Isn’t that a contradiction?

I also want to use your own words ……. Football is not a rocket science .

So, taking that into consideration, how come Iranians cannot excel in such an easy field like football? The same Iranians that are running nuclear reactors, build missiles and have a large number of top level professional in every field, including engineering, medicine and science. I am talking about top level.

OK...let us not go too far afield , let us stick to sport. Do you know how many sports Iran has champions at Asian or World level ? How about the recent success of basketball and Volleyball teams under Iranian coaches....??


Simply put…your degradation of Iranian coaches does not make sense to me. History and facts says that Iranian coaches have achieved a lot in football and they still do. On the other hand the existence of some dreary and uninspiring Iranian coaches does not mean that a whole generation of coaches is bad.

In UAE , they are still talking about Heshamat Mohajerani as one the best ever coaches that have worked in that country. In fact, if God gave us a few more years to live , I bet you that Daei will be a candidate for a great coach and I am willing to bet a lot on him.

Good points majid jaan.......
Although,I care very little for Ali Daei and consider hi psycologicaly inbalance,Yet, I agree he will come back......
In fact, my solution to our situation,is a fresh start, with coaching class of likes of DAEI, HASHEMIAN,MAHDAVIKIA,etc........as a matter of fact, heshmat Mohajerani,and jallal Talebi,were first in forign experinced coaching class !
.................................................. ..............................................

The main reason, currant system can not be accepted, is that because : NO ONE LEARNS ANYTHING NEW, Niether players, nor Coaches !!


.................................................. ..............................................
The success of Iranian bascket ball, and vally ball,etc, is due to the level of the success in football, as our football has had limited success too !!
But, to go to the next level, to go where the big boys are, it requires a more organizational skills, and raw talents will not be sufficient..it is only sufficient up to a Asian level,or islamic level........
The success have been either at Asian levels, or international youth level,which talents count more than system,and youth talents is high in IRAN,but no growth after !!!.....Our Biggest talent in basketball, signed a contract with memphys grizlers NBA,and kicked out after a year....similar to our football legioners....
.................................................. ................................................
1- Economic advancements of countreis such as ours, have started with combination of foreign investment,foreign managements, and transfering and importing up todate knowledge....and training of locals....
Football reguires a same system of changes......

2- Even, big boys, such as Spain, advanced its football,in last decade by importing forign players and coaches,and investments, it paid off !

.................................................. ..................................................

South Korea, japan, and even new zeland, are leaving us behind, only by organizational deciplins......not by producing more talents !

.................................................. ................................................
A system based on poletical propaganda,and bad management,and lack of importing new ideas,and lack of accountability, will go no where......
Football, does not neccessarly need to wait for the whole system to change,as it could be indepenedtly advancing, since football is non-poletical, and international......
All we need is a combination of fresh class of domestic coaches with up to date informetion and managerial skills...and a generation of foreign coaches, who can adopt to our system, such as eastern Europeans,and may be football minded head at IFF, such as Mohajerani !!!

[zzgloo]

Well, TM success and amount of legionnaires are heavily correlated. One thing is pushing the other and we were in a "positive escalation" for years and somehow managed to turn it into a negative one. Now it will be very hard to break that circle. We need a lucky shot at next WCQ. If we make it to WC some players will make it to Europe again, which will improve TM performances and results and help further players to be scouted and signed and so on...

martin jaan.....
sending more player to Europe, can not be a plan of action to improve football......
The only solution is to invest havily in domestic league coaching !

[zzgloo]

حاج *رضايي:
فوتبال ما به افراد شريف نياز دارد
مربيان ليگ برتري بايد حداقل*ها را دارا باشند
مربي كم*دانش باشخصيت بهتر است از بادانش بي*شخصيت سرويس: ورزشي - فوتبال
1389/04/23
07-14-2010
10:24:35
8904-11877: كد خبر



خبرگزاري دانشجويان ايران - تهران
سرويس: ورزشي - فوتبال


اميرحاج رضايي در نشست كافه فوتبال با موضوع "بررسي تاثيرات جام جهاني بر فوتبال ايران" گفت: فوتبال ايران به افراد شريف نياز دارد.

به گزارش خبرنگار ورزشي خبرگزاري دانشجويان ايران (ايسنا)، اين كارشناس فوتبال اظهار كرد: اينكه با نااميدي به فوتبال كشورمان نگاه كنيم اصلا تصميم خوبي نيست. نكته اساسي اين است كه براي ارتقاي فوتبال هر كس بايد در هر جايگاهي كه قرار دارد كار را از خودش شروع كند. حقيقت امر اين است كه فوتبال ايران به افراد شريف نياز دارد تا وضعيت فوتبال را از اين بهتر كند. افرادي كه در فوتبال مي*آيند بايد در هر سمتي كه هستند "نه" گفتن را بلد باشند و در جايي كه با اصول اخلاقي*شان در تضاد است از آن پست بيرون بيايند.

حاج رضايي ادامه داد: فوتبال ما يك پازل است كه اگر يك تكه*اش شكل نگيرد كار به خوبي انجام نمي*شود و بايد كاري كرد تا همه اعضاي فوتبال به درستي كار خود را انجام دهند.

اين كارشناس فوتبال در مورد مسابقات جام جهاني و احساس شخصي*اش از اين رقابت*ها گفت: در سال يك*روز به نام روز پدر داريم اما وقتي كه جام جهاني برگزار مي*شود من احساس مي*كنم كه 30 روز پدر دارم. من فوتبال را صميمانه دوست دارم و اصلا براي آن زندگي مي*كنم. در عين حال كه از شرايط حاكم بر فوتبال دردمند هستم اما هيچ زوري و هيچ مقام و ثروتي هم ندارم كه بتوانم اين شرايط را تغيير دهم. من فقط يك معلم ساده هستم كه كمي قدرت حرف زدن دارد، اما مطمئن نيستم كه حرف*هايم تاثيرگذار باشد و نكاتي را كه بايد از آنها برداشت شود.

حاج رضايي در ارتباط با اين موضوع كه آيا فوتبال ايران آمادگي پذيرش آموزه*هاي جام جهاني را دارد گفت: خير، اين آمادگي هنوز در فوتبال ايران وجود ندارد چرا كه ما هنوز آن شرافت لازم را در ميان افراد حاضر در فوتبال نمي*بينيم. واقعيت اين است كه ما قواعد ديالوگ را بلد نيستيم. نمونه*اش همين ملي*پوشان سابقي كه اكنون مربي شدند و مرتب با هم بحث و جدل مي*كنند و مثلا دليل برتري خود را بازيهاي ملي بيشتر خود عنوان مي*كنند. همين امر نشان مي*دهد كه فوتبال ما بافرهنگ نيست. چرا كه فرهنگ گفت*وگو ميان مربيان يك جامعه فوتبال اينگونه نيست. به عقيده من خيلي چيزها در فوتبال ما گم شده است.

حاج رضايي افزود: مربياني كه به ليگ برتر مي*آيند بايد به جهت اخلاقي، علمي و پايگاه اجتماعي حداقل*ها را دارا باشند. تنها افراد توانمند مي*توانند در ليگ برتر ما حضور داشته باشند، اما متاسفانه مي*بينيم كه وضعيت اينگونه نيست و افراد براساس توانمندي*هاي خود در پستشان حضور ندارند. امروزه دنيا به سمتي پيش مي*رود كه افراد توانمند را براي خود انتخاب مي*كند، اما ما ايراني*ها در حال حاضر به دلايل عديده ناتوانيم.

اين كارشناس فوتبال ادامه داد: به نظر من نسلي كه مي*خواهد وارد چرخه فوتبال كشور شود بايد يكسري اخلاقيات را رعايت كند و اين نكته را همواره به ياد داشته باشد كه تنها انسان شريف است كه مي*تواند خدمت كند. افراد جديدي كه قرار است به فوتبال ايران بيايند بايد مسلح باشند كه سلاح آنها نيز آگاهي آنهاست. من شخصا يك مربي كم دانش و باشخصيت را به يك مربي بادانش و بي*شخصيت ترجيح مي*دهم. چرا كه فردي كه باشخصيت است اصول خود را زيرپا نمي*گذارد و از ارزشهاي خود عدول نمي*كند.

حاج رضايي خاطرنشان كرد: يك روز وقتي 12 ساله بودم در همسايگي*مان حسن حبيبي را ديدم كه آن زمان 18 سال داشت و به او سلام كردم و او جواب سلام مرا داد و آن شب من به خاطر اين اتفاق تا صبح نخوابيدم، اما امروز شاهديم كه حسن حبيبي در فوتبال ايران جايي ندارد. همينطور افراد ديگري مثل او نظير منصور اميرآصفي نيز امروزه در فوتبال ايران ديده نمي*شود. متاسفانه جامعه ما اين افراد را فراموش كرده است و به نوعي فوتبال ما از معلم*ها خالي شده است.

حاج رضايي در پايان اظهار كرد: اميدوارم همه افرادي كه در فوتبال حضور دارند به شرافت آن كمك كنند تا وضعمان از اين بهتر شود.

انتهاي پيام



The system is not capable of correcting itself......
The so called ,experts,do not know where to start.......
When a respected domestic football expert, admits the short comings,yet believes , " Sherafat ",is the solution...what can we do ?
perhaps,what he means by " Sherafat ", is , work ethics, without noticing it himself !!.....and that can not be produced within the system........
yet,he admits,solutions most be with league's coaching, and work ethics.....
.................................................. .................................................

Such radical changes to transform cultural inefficiencies,have been successful in Economic models, in Business world,by cooperation of forign "Know-how ',and new educated classes........,perhaps, our football should look into Bussiness models !

[Doctor DOOM]

The main reason, currant system can not be accepted, is that because : NO ONE LEARNS ANYTHING NEW, Niether players, nor Coaches !!
.................................................. .............................................

1- Economic advancements of countreis such as ours, have started with combination of foreign investment,foreign managements, and transfering and importing up todate knowledge....and training of locals....
Football reguires a same system of changes......

2- Even, big boys, such as Spain, advanced its football,in last decade by importing forign players and coaches,and investments, it paid off !
.................................................. ..................................................
South Korea, japan, and even new zeland, are leaving us behind, only by organizational deciplins......not by producing more talents !
.................................................. ................................................
A system based on poletical propaganda,and bad management,and lack of importing new ideas,and lack of accountability, will go no where......
Football, does not neccessarly need to wait for the whole system to change,as it could be indepenedtly advancing, since football is non-poletical, and international......
All we need is a combination of fresh class of domestic coaches with up to date informetion and managerial skills...and a generation of foreign coaches, who can adopt to our system, such as eastern Europeans,and may be football minded head at IFF, such as Mohajerani !!!

I agree totally w all the above.
(note; this is besides the ghotbi issue)


if we see successful native koreans n japanese coaches int'lly, it is only the result of a decade-long investment on foreign coaching at both club & nat'l level & long term planning by well organized fedn's .
without all these, none of the japanese or korean success (coaching & team wise) would have been possible.

so, yes, within the category of coaching, hiring of the likes of wenger, hiddink, troussier , ... have had tremendous impact on today's success.

[Doctor DOOM]

Well, TM success and amount of legionnaires are heavily correlated. One thing is pushing the other and we were in a "positive escalation" for years and somehow managed to turn it into a negative one. Now it will be very hard to break that circle. We need a lucky shot at next WCQ. If we make it to WC some players will make it to Europe again, which will improve TM performances and results and help further players to be scouted and signed and so on...

couldnt agree more, except add the significance of the asia cuo to the WC, as the other great chance for introd'n & exposure of our talent to the world.

... which makes our performance in the upcoming AC 10 times more vital that we shdnt experiment with (hint at using the sub-par coach like ghotbi)

[Doctor DOOM]

this thread got me thinking about the true potential of our vatani coaches, especially the new faces, who still have the capacity to learn and get them up to speed with the rest of asia or even the world.

among the younger generation, who, imo, have shown sparks and shown an inner talent that hold some promise for the future, are:
1- Taghavi (he did pretty well with saipa and a couple of other teams a few years back)
2- Ahmadzadeh (his malavan played some great football and produced/introduced many stars of today's IPL)
3- Doosti
4- GN
5- Daei
6- Dast-neshan
7- Estili (hell, why not? lets put his name too)


we could add the slightly more mature, but still plenty of years left in the tank coaches too:
- Jalali
- Ebrahimzadeh
- Firooz karimi
-

so it's not as if there's dearth of promising talent. but it is up to IFF AND THEMSELVES to mold them into Okadas and Jung-Moos of the future Iran.

p.s.; with the likes of VH and probably Kia taking up coaching, we will see a gigantic jump in technical knowledge and information among the next generation of vatani coaches too.

***************

notice, mansourian is nowhere in the list, imo, as he hasnt shown anything to justify his inclusion. and yet, ghotbi chose him, which reinforces the belief that this selection was more towards securing ghotbi's own seat by choosing a non-threatening assistant, than the assistant's coaching capabilities!

btw, among the 10 names above, I believe at least 5-6 of them are better qualified to lead TM than ghotbi. and yet , kafashian extended ghotbi's contract!!!

[Keano]

Our football and overall our culture suffers from lack of discipline and professionalism, our football coaches and players' misdemeanor and shortage of ethics will never be improved unless it's fundamentally re-structured, this indeed won't happen unless a foreign force and element is injected into this chronic and painful disease. I can confidently say that 99% of our football is affected by this epidemic disease.

Sometimes in the life of a family the internal problems and never-ending issues get so intense and non stop that only an outsider and a professional family psychologist may be able to solve the issues and settle things down, our current state of football is exactly the same scenario. Our national coaches not only have over and over failed in delivering such missions, but on the contrary often caused more chaos and controversy by their unethical actions!


I won't even get into the technical and tactical aspects of the comparison between the 2, as such comparisons are rather futile and ridiculous!

[maij]

Doc..

I would personally put a lot of faith in Daei , Kia, Hashemian to be technically the better coaches simply because of the foreign exposure and experience , although I have some reservation about Hashmian character and his ability in dealing with the difficult players.

Yes , it is up to these coaches to deliver the goods by self-improvement , character adjustment and realism. Their progress is not dependent or conditional on IFF at all. All IFF can do is provide regular workshop , which it does well. It is one of the few things that IFF has actually managed to do right and without interruption. I strongly believe that the ball is in the individual coach's court.

I do not care much about the claims that Iranian coaches are as bad as some put it ...that is pure nonsense. They are as good as the football itself no better no worse. These coaches that you have mentioned and others as well , have the potential and if they apply themselves , work hard at it and refrain from too much irooni bazi and blaming the earth and sky , they might actually excel i their jobs. It is all in the mind.

Keano....

Changing a nation culture takes a generation or two. We all know what type of culture that exists in Iran and we know the shortcomings. Instead of fighting it and trying to change it , it is much better to live along and deal with it...and the research says the people who can deal best with such cultural adjustment are the people within.

If you are suggesting that foreigners come and teach the Iranians a few things about their own behavior and its weakness , history and track records says the chances of failure is quite high and success is a few and far between. Nobody knows about the inner secrets of a culture than the people who are living in it and know its shortcomings.

The ideal situation is for well educated , well trained and qualified coaches , as the DOC suggested , take the initiative and work their way up.

There is always that worry about patience and support. Iranians are not good in both. They lack tolerance and patience and the slightest hint of weak results means that the coach has to be sacrificed. These coaches need time and support.

[zzgloo]

Nobody knows about the inner secrets of a culture than the people who are living in it and know it shortcomings.

.

This is where we are in disagreement !!

We all, learned much more about Iranian culture,when we were out side of it...,while being originaly from the culture,gives additional perspective.....may be the best compromise is what we all seemed to have agreed on,.....as , keano, Doc, you and I, have been in agreement of a new class of : DAEI, HASHEMIAN,MAHDAVIKIA,etc......

[maij]

.

This is where we are in disagreement !!

We all, learned much more about Iranian culture,when we were out side of it...,while being originaly from the culture,gives additional perspective.....may be the best compromise is what we all seemed to have agreed on,.....as , keano, Doc, you and I, have been in agreement of a new class of : DAEI, HASHEMIAN,MAHDAVIKIA,etc......

Nobody knows about the inner secrets of a culture than the people who are living in it and know its shortcomings.

That statement was NOT mine. It is the anthropologists and social studies experts who came up with this theory...and I tend to agree with it.

I am not discounting your statement about findings about Iranian culture when you went out of Iran. I fully agree and support it...But Bahram Jan...YOU ARE the culture and YOU ARE Iranian and PERSIAN ( regardless to your passport)...so YOU ARE better equipped/qualified to tackle the cultural issues much more than Mr. John Franaklin De Souza

We are in agreement Agha Bahram. I don't agree that we are disagreeing (hmmmmmm...it is getting a bit complicated now!!)

[zzgloo]

[B][FONT=Georgia]
We are in agreement Agha Bahram. I don't agree that we are disagreeing (hmmmmmm...it is getting a bit complicated now!!)

I agree !!

[maij]

One of the difficulties that the vatani coaches face in Iran is the unnatural and deep friction that the media creates amongst them leading to animosity and mud slanging. The media ( excluding TV) seems never to get satisfied unless they create such atmosphere of controversy. There are countless examples and the freshest one that comes to mind is between Ghalenoei and Mazloomi and the former and Daei.

If we assume that media is always catering for the masses preferences and reflecting the reader's viewpoints and choices , then we assume that people like to read about such fights and differences between coaches and coaches or players versus coaches.

Another phenomena that is always evident in Iran is the hyper-critical views of coaches against whoever Team Melli coach is. Recently , there was an all out attack on Ghotbi due to his summer camp in Austria, before him Daei was a target and before that Ghalenoei !!!

[maij]

مشارکت شده توسط reporter در تیر 27, 1389 - 06:29 قبل از ظهر
تعداد بازدید خبر: 3

[دانلود تصویر]

[zzgloo]

مشارکت شده توسط reporter در تیر 27, 1389 - 06:29 قبل از ظهر
تعداد بازدید خبر: 3

[دانلود تصویر]

Majid jaan.......
your previouse post was also interesting,as this is as well.....
" Daanesh Afzaaee "....niether can be done with only " ONE DAY "...nor, is it something that can be taught in a class room...
Forign coaches, beside thier coaching degrees, they have been assistant to several coaches, and learnt from different coaches, in very compatetive atmosphers.......
a tipycal carrier of a coach in Europe consists of, :

1- playing background in a proffesional league.
2-coaching classes.
3-Assistantship, to several head coaches,in different capacities.
4-coaching in lower leagues.
5-coaching for several prffesional league teams.
6-possibily,national team coahing experince.
7-In addition, most of them have collage degrees as well,or even higher education.
.................................................. .................................................. .

Tipycal carriers of domestic coaches :

1- playing background in Iranian league.
2-No coaching degrees, or if they do,it is a low class one.
3-Coaching in a weak domestic league,with little competition.