Ghotbi earns more money than 13 WC coaches

[Doctor DOOM]

Payman jaan....
I know , you don't mean it.....
But,would you please, don't ever again use read ink,to respond to my comments........I found it offensive !,
please choose any other colore ,but Red !, if you can ,please !
Khayeh Mali ?.......?....
talks are cheap ?......
Denizeli team ?.......
I would like to end this particular discussion with you.......you are way too settled with your point...and as you said, one can promote any one he likes !even mayeli Kohan............
God bless you, and I still love you !
I will catch you on the rebound of some other issues !

bahram jan, bro,
I wasnt aware you didnt like the color red. I just wanted to contrast my post from yours, is why I used a different color.
and that's becoz after all these years I havent figured out how to use this "multi-quote" button (or perhaps it doesnt work for me!!!)
what are your feelings towards the color green or blue, perhaps?

in fact I just went and changed it, so you wouldnt feel bad. how's dark green?


secondly, I'm not stuck on any point.
it's just that I simply havent seen anything substantial come from ghotbi and the worst is his team plays a very low quality football that only makes my worries for the asia cup even bigger!

*********

the point is merely saying the words "ghotbi's knowledge of football is better" does not automatically become true.
I can say the knowledge of football of azizi is better. does that become a valid "reasoning" that statements can be built upon?
No. it's only an opinion .... NOT a reason.



the next is making issues like "throwing a luncheon for reporters" or "speaking gently" as requisites or reasonings for quality coaching. I'm sorry, bro ... but I just cant imagine 99 out of 100 ppl associate those issues with quality coaching.



the hard facts and evidence like his coaching degree is kept ambiguous, which only fuels those who believe he doesnt have one, or if he has, it is one of those "falleh-ee & Kiloo-ee" degrees that our third division vatanis can get or already have!



I hope the matter with psychology is put to rest as on one side stands an "OPINION" of him being good, and on the side stands so many REAL LIFE examples to the contrary (players deserting, speaking behind him, ..etc etc)



his experience AS A COACH is extremely limited ( *** see below***) and absolutely, definitely and beyond a shadow of a doubt are NOT enough to become a NATIONAL TEAM'S COACH. a club? perhaps. hell, we have guys like azizi and hasheminasab and mansourian becoming coaches at clubs. ghotbi is very much in their category in terms of experience as a coach.
plz do NOT mix playing with computers and populating a data sheet with coaching experience.



so if we look at the discussion, we see only "opinions" and hardly any facts. and you know as well as anyone, that anyone can have any sort of opinion across a wiiiidddee range for any particular issue.

but what CAN be used is his results and quality of performances.
and I'm afraid he has failed in both the issues

==============

*** ghotbi's COACHING experience;
coaching a bunch of girls, and denizli's persepolis for 1 season and another half season, of pp where he got booted out for some horrible performances.
that's it!
his PP's 1st season success IS due to denizli's work, coz pp ran through the whole league in the first season with hardly a problem.
but as time went on and denizli's factor diminished, in the second half of the season, pp started losing games and drawing silly teams. so much that they almost lost the title.
that proves the TREND that as denizli's influence waned, ghotbi's became stroneger and pp started playing poor quality football

[zzgloo]

Payman e aziz......
I disliked Ali daei......You disliked Ghotbi & Branko, Majid Disliked Ghotbi.......so we are should have some idea as how the others feel.....
Yet, although my intention is not to change your mind...but, may be if I respond to your specific comments,may be our posissions get closer to each other...........

bahram jan, bro,
I wasnt aware you didnt like the color red. I just wanted to contrast my post from yours, is why I used a different color.
and that's becoz after all these years I havent figured out how to use this "multi-quote" button (or perhaps it doesnt work for me!!!)
what are your feelings towards the color green or blue, perhaps?

in fact I just went and changed it, so you wouldnt feel bad. how's dark green?

Thanks so much for accumidating me,..your red lines reminded me of bad grades my high school teacher used give me...and it was a reminder of my failiers !

secondly, I'm not stuck on any point.

I hope so....

it's just that I simply havent seen anything substantial come from ghotbi and the worst is his team plays a very low quality football that only makes my worries for the asia cup even bigger!

Niether have I seen anything substantial...have said anything otherwise ?......yet, when we talk about quality of the game on the pitch......do you remember TM under Ali daei ?.....was that not funny ?

*********

the point is merely saying the words "ghotbi's knowledge of football is better" does not automatically become true.
I can say the knowledge of football of azizi is better. does that become a valid "reasoning" that statements can be built upon?
No. it's only an opinion .... NOT a reason.


That is true, as it is in large extend an opinion...but, I just justify for myself, and trying to be fair...the likes of Azizi,and hasheminassab,and mayelikohan...are just to much inbalance, psycologicaly....and I highly doubt thier level of intelegence.....or education, or managerial skills.....let alone, they never have worked in two world cups, two Asian cups, league championship, etc,etc......

So, I take your comparison, coming from some other source ..not fairness !


the next is making issues like "throwing a luncheon for reporters" or "speaking gently" as requisites or reasonings for quality coaching. I'm sorry, bro ... but I just cant imagine 99 out of 100 ppl associate those issues with quality coaching.


You are doing " MAGHLATEH "......doing lunch and speaking gently was in the context of psycological skills and manipulations, not football coaching....for comparetive coaching skills, I used different reasonings...
yet, your source of reasoning is not fair.



the hard facts and evidence like his coaching degree is kept ambiguous, which only fuels those who believe he doesnt have one, or if he has, it is one of those "falleh-ee & Kiloo-ee" degrees that our third division vatanis can get or already have!


...I realize that his degree is ambigiouse......yet the ambiguity is better than non-extistance........
his resume of coacing, while way superior to that of 99% of domestic coaches...before head coaching perspolise to championship.....and with record of head coaching his first team to the leagues championship....added to his resume..........his resume was very acceptable..for a country, that did not require it from some other coaches !!!


I hope the matter with psychology is put to rest as on one side stands an "OPINION" of him being good, and on the side stands so many REAL LIFE examples to the contrary (players deserting, speaking behind him, ..etc etc)

It is put to rest from my side...I do not know about you...........
In a new country,with few inside connections..his resume with players is defenetly not worse than other coaches.......
his resturant encounter with media, was defenetly better than Ali daei wanting to kill one of them, or mayeli Kohan figthing with many, or ghalenoee hated ferdosipoor,and considered all media not qualified to critisize,.etc,etc...
Speaking behind him,,is a norm in Iran, and Ghotbi has had the least, along with Branko........although,Ghotbi pays more attention to media than Branko did......



his experience AS A COACH is extremely limited ( *** see below***) and absolutely, definitely and beyond a shadow of a doubt are NOT enough to become a NATIONAL TEAM'S COACH. a club? perhaps. hell, we have guys like azizi and hasheminasab and mansourian becoming coaches at clubs. ghotbi is very much in their category in terms of experience as a coach.
plz do NOT mix playing with computers and populating a data sheet with coaching experience.

Payman jaan..it is you who mixes up.......
I said,He is not qualified myself....I just said, the others suck ! more than he does......
it is you who exadurate,and mixes up to support his unfair judgements,and forgeting the issue that is a comparison, not qualification.



so if we look at the discussion, we see only "opinions" and hardly any facts. and you know as well as anyone, that anyone can have any sort of opinion across a wiiiidddee range for any particular issue.

but what CAN be used is his results and quality of performances.
and I'm afraid he has failed in both the issues

You are right, I did not provid solid facts....
But did you ??
I how ever, provided, some reasnable conclusions and convergence..base on more fairness,and less presumptions
==============

*** ghotbi's COACHING experience;
coaching a bunch of girls, and denizli's persepolis for 1 season and another half season, of pp where he got booted out for some horrible performances.
that's it!
his PP's 1st season success IS due to denizli's work, coz pp ran through the whole league in the first season with hardly a problem.
but as time went on and denizli's factor diminished, in the second half of the season, pp started losing games and drawing silly teams. so much that they almost lost the title.
that proves the TREND that as denizli's influence waned, ghotbi's became stroneger and pp started playing poor quality football

payman jaan.......
Denizeli did not do any good,with,Denizeli's team, on his last year himself....

I know you..payman jaan, to some extend,in this last 6 years for reading your opinions.......
You are well informed,football wise....and believe in a quality football with prefernce to attaching avangard styles........

what you fail to see, is our limited options !

[maij]

Majid Jaan......thanks for your respond.......
It is easier to answer to your post than payman's....as his was, one sided,red ink to everything without reasons,just sounded a very angry !and ..and discribed the situaation with his khayeh mali,and chance,and some oneelses team,and etc,etc...........

majid jaan.....the reason I explained about his psycology, was because it was the only point you and payman zeroed in on your previouse posts,so I had to explain...as matter of fact, I think his better points, compare to Domestic coaches are his knowledge of Football, is small as it may be, yet better than others in Iran......
I noticed,you said you are a student of psycology yourself.....and I must say, I also know a thing or two myself......

1- Psycology :
we are talking this issue only in the capacity of social psycology,and understanding of a particular cultural psycology,and its manipulation to one's interests !
In Iran, for us out of country people, is very hard to get our ways....with " JAVE HAKEM against foreiners,and constant criticisms against a person who has very few freinds, one realy needs to be artistic on his psycological manipulative skills !, which I think Ghotbi has done a respectable job....

2- Coaching skills:
We all know, he is defently not as good as he has advertized himself to be !!( although that is another credit to him, yet,....he has not damaged TM as his previouse predecesor did.., nor has he been given enough chance that is normal for such JOB.....his coaching degree( which you said it was fake),his experince in two world cups, two asian cups, and one league championship,his collage degree,his internet savy,his psycological skills,etc,etc.......should count for something......specialy in a so weak a competition.


majid jaan...please remind yourself, to whom are we comparing Ghotbi with !, bounch of, very little academic knowledge,very little coaching schools, very little international skills,....coaches who have mastered beating Rah-ahan and Booshehr,and aboomoslems...yet, constantly goofing off in international competitions...coaches, who are in a musical chair, game, and keep changing places,among few of thier competitions, every year, and call it competetive coaching !!!!...........
They have failed to train players, they have waisted talents ,they have failed to present up to date footbal,...yet they have succeeded in mastering Bull shits !

Agha Bahram Jan.

I have read your posts on this thread several times to reach what I call a midway house. Something that I can endorse in what you say about Ghotbi that I might have obviously missed. After all , it is NOT my intention to downgrade or ridicule TM coach , whoever he is , just because I don't like his trousers or TO GLORIFY him just because he has a nice smile.

I did try but unfortunately , the more I read your justifications of your passion for Ghotbi , the more I fail to find that midway house or consolatory mark that I was hoping to find. No disrespect Bahram Jan , but virtually ALL of your "good" description of Ghotbi , does not add one ounce of credit to him as a professional National Football Team Manager/Coach. He could be a very nice man , speaking English and knowing autoCAD , photoshop and using excel & skype to perfection , but how you tie this as being an advantage in his capacity as a coach , is really beyond my comprehension.

The other problem, Bahram Jan , and I say that with lots of respect to you , is that you are talking about Ghotbi and other Iranian coaches as if you have been living close to them , as if you are familiar with their manner , behavior and inner feelings. You are so full of confidence when you are referring to them , while in reality you are living on the other side of the world but giving yourself the liberty of judging characters in abstention!

Since you said that you know one or two things about psychology , I just want to remind you on one of the the golden rules . To be a good judge of character or excel in psychological profiling , you need to work very closely to your subject and on regular basis. ...... Or am I missing something ?

Also , you have been misquoting me on several occasions. I am sure it is not intentional , but that does create a friction and complicates the issues.

In brief , I seriously do not find much to rave about in Ghotbi despite your gallant effort to glorify him. This discussion is also going nowhere with the repeat of the same old arguments, so let us leave it at that and discuss some other thing , shall we ?

[zzgloo]

you have been misquoting me on several occasions. I am sure it is not intentional , but that does create a friction and complicates the issues.

In brief , I seriously do not find much to rave about in Ghotbi despite your gallant effort to glorify him. This discussion is also going nowhere with the repeat of the same old arguments, so let us leave it at that and discuss some other thing , shall we ?

Thanks so much, for trying to find a common ground..even though you could n't......................is the try that counts !
1- I never meant to miss code you, if I did I apologize........
2-I never,ever,glorified him..that is a over statement ........, just, adam,az nalaji,be gorbeh migeh khanoom baji...
3-I live in USA,but I have been atleast two mounth a year in IRAN, every year, for the last 16 years.....I own a residence,and own a shop in Bazar..and have a team of 18 people working for me........I have worked with IRANIANS , for 16 years, constantly, and in USA, I am in a business,that all my fellow competetors,and business friends,are IRANIANS,who also like me, go to IRAN alot..........
I have become great student, of IRANIAN psycological business manipulation,...thier ,sand bagging style,thier cunning " Tavazo ", thier good sides, and deceptive techniques.......Thier lack of team work..thier singlemindedness of thier own perfect judgements.......
I prefer,in general work with " TURKS ", I found them to have better work ethics !....and I have found a technique or to how to manipulate them..to an extend.........
with them, is all deceptive !!
.................................................. .....
I do not like Ghotbi,I think he is over advertized,and under qualified.....
I just think, we should throw all domestic coaches to the sea !!
.................................................. ......
I agree we are going no where, and I admit I may be wrong !,it is possible......
I also agree we should go on..and see if we could solve other world problems together !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your exchange of ideas with me !

[Doctor DOOM]

bahram jan,

1- on comparison of ghotbi w daei:
we shd not counter a negative with another negative. that doesnt get us anywhere.


2- "worked in 2 WC's ... etc" ??
so is it ok to hire the media officer of germany as TM's head coach, since he's been there for at least 2 WC's?
what about their "abdaar-chi"? or "tadarokat-chi"? or ...

was he a C.O.A.C.H. ?
N.O.

besides, I rate MK's managerial skills far higher than ghotbi's.
he not only handled massive egos like daei very well (MK was THE ONLY coach who stood up to him and didnt take any sh*t from his star player... unlike some other wimps), he has also reached the WC semi finals AS THE H.E.A.D. C.O.A.C.H. (not analyst, not abdarchi, not assistant, not trainer, .....
He also has been excellent in molding young talent into teams with senior stars.
ghotbi has absolutely nothing on MK in such matters.
ghotbi, however, is just in the category of hasheminasab and mansourian in this.



so trying to hide one's inabilities and deficiencies in coaching, by throwing luncheons and bribing critics is actually a positive thing???
even if that is a successful psychological ploy, how does that make this person A GOOD COACH?
a good lobbyist? perhaps.
a good "middle man"? sure
a good "wheeler-dealer"? maybe
but a coach? absolutely not.


you, again and again go over the IMAGINARY RESUME that is full of holes, ambiguous degree and all ... and then build a structure/argument on that.
would you build your house on a foundation made of cotton?
NO.
where is the solid evidence here?



if you accept he is not qualified, then why are you defending him? why would you want an ill-qualified person with little coaching experience, and probably a falleh-yi degree (if at all) to lead your nat'l team?
is it not becoz some of us are infatuated with the idea of some iranian/american chap leading TM ... who can speak english well and uses the internet or ....whatnot?



my facts are:
1- the pathetic quality of games under him
2- evidence of inability to deal with star players
3- lack of fore-sight in bringing 33 year old karimi for a tournament that he'd hardly be in form
4- TM never, EVER had lost 5 games in a row (int'l friendly or competitive)
5- lied about knowing koreas as his team squad, team tactics and plan against north korea proved it.
I'd even say against south korea too, as he'd have kept a man specifically on park since almost everything went through him and we could have stifled korea if ghotbi knew even a little bit about them, and football in gerenal.


denizli didnt do good?
transforming a 9th place perspolis, into a contender is not good?
transforming a sub-par team into one of the most exciting attacking clubs in the league is not good?
and getting all that done with a squad that someone else (aari haan) selected, while not having even a single decent striker in the roster is not good?
read a few reviews of denizli's pp. read some articles on it and you'd know how good he was.


I dont see such limitations. we may not have the talent of spanish, or the organization of japanese. but we're not all that bad and we still have plenty of decent talent (asian standard)

ALL I see is MIS-USE of whatever we have.
keeping little men as ppl who decide things for us, be it at IFF or as coaches. little men with little ambitions and limited abilities.
why?
becoz they're cheap!


***********

btw, my views are on the "coach" not the person, whether it is daei or ghotbi or branko or ... .
I love daei. but as the TM's COACH, I think he had quite a few failings that made me bring them up and criticize him.
so I dont target the person. I target the decisions.

[maij]

Thanks so much, for trying to find a common ground..even though you could n't......................is the try that counts !
1- I never meant to miss code you, if I did I apologize........
2-I never,ever,glorified him..that is a over statement ........, just, adam,az nalaji,be gorbeh migeh khanoom baji...
3-I live in USA,but I have been atleast two mounth a year in IRAN, every year, for the last 16 years.....I own a residence,and own a shop in Bazar..and have a team of 18 people working for me........I have worked with IRANIANS , for 16 years, constantly, and in USA, I am in a business,that all my fellow competetors,and business friends,are IRANIANS,who also like me, go to IRAN alot..........
I have become great student, of IRANIAN psycological business manipulation,...thier ,sand bagging style,thier cunning " Tavazo ", thier good sides, and deceptive techniques.......Thier lack of team work..thier singlemindedness of thier own perfect judgements.......
I prefer,in general work with " TURKS ", I found them to have better work ethics !....and I have found a technique or to how to manipulate them..to an extend.........
with them, is all deceptive !!
.................................................. .....
I do not like Ghotbi,I think he is over advertized,and under qualified.....
I just think, we should throw all domestic coaches to the sea !!
.................................................. ......
I agree we are going no where, and I admit I may be wrong !,it is possible......
I also agree we should go on..and see if we could solve other world problems together !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your exchange of ideas with me !

All done in a good spirit , Agha Bahram .
Some additional notes and thoughts

• Perhaps the use of the phrase "Glorifying Ghotbi " was not too accurate as you already mentioned that he is not exactly a perfect coach , but I could not find a better phrase...anyway , you know what I meant

• You are a brave man to have a business in Tehran while you are away from your business. It takes guts and lots of patience. I do wish you success but I already am beginning to feel your stress

• I think your business dealings in Iran and the difficulties that you have faced while conducting business has affected your judgment on Iranians. For many years , I have also dealt with Iranians at governmental and corporate level although I had no significant commercial/business dealing. I understand your feelings and share most of it.... There we go , Bahram jan..at last I found out some common grounds

• I am beginning to understand your thoughts on Vatani vs Ajnabi coaches better. We shall continue this debate in that thread about national or foreign coach.

[zzgloo]

I appreciate the intelegent posts both by majid,and payman.....
As majid says, ( I hope I am not miss-coding ) ,we are getting no where...and in addition, I have realized, it may be best, for me to explain my view in this regard, in the other thread....( Coaching,foreign or Domestic)......as in this thread, I have to defend Ghotbi,who is hard to defend.......and makes my job of explaining unworthyness of Doemstic coaches harder..........

To me, let alone Ghotbi who has seen the football picth......., I believe, any manager, of Mcdonnald resturant, who has no Idea what football is, will do a better job of coacing TM,than all Iranian coaches together !

I see you in the other thread !

[Doctor DOOM]

I believe, any manager, of Mcdonnald resturant, who has no Idea what football is, will do a better job of coacing TM,than all Iranian coaches together !
!

I guess this is the core of the issue here.
you just dont want to see/accept the likes of jalali, GN, daei, Dr. Z, Ebrahimzadeh, ... are better than ghotbi.

[zzgloo]

I guess this is the core of the issue here.
you just dont want to see/accept the likes of jalali, GN, daei, Dr. Z, Ebrahimzadeh, ... are better than ghotbi.

One last post here,...payman jaan...as speaking about Ghotbi may not be appropreate in the other thread....

.................................................. ................................................

All criticisms to Ghotbi, are either Not true,or inconsiquential,or illwilled,or out of jelousy,or irrelevent,or illogical,.....


.................................................. ................................................


1- They say his coaching leisence is fake :

How do they know?, we saw its picture,it looked like one, and why,Ghotbi who is so ambisiouse,and gone to Korea for 8 years,for his currier,would never applied for one in USA ?...is not that hard to get a coaching leisence in USA,it is not Germany !!,and as american he should have fear of being prosecuted in USA for that,the land he likes to go back to...

2-They say,he does not have coaching experince :

why was not this asked from ,Ali Daei...many others...not even Branko,our most successful coach, had it.....in fact,comparetively,his experince is far better than most previouse TM coaches..

3- They say he is not qualified :

what kind of qualification IFF is used to ??...He has had,international experince,asian experince, coaching leisence,league championship,endorsment of top coaches,etc,etc........was Ali daei's qualification superioer ?,..although they still prefered Ali daei over him initialy....,and paid far worse a price than we so far have for having Ghotbi..

4-They say he got the job through inside mafia:

An American connection in islamic republic ?....,kafashian,risked his job for an unqualified American in islamic republic ?..with Ahmadinejad on his back ?......,
If anything,Ghotbi had, negative connection,and that was why he was passed by,in faivor of Ali daei,initialy....

5-They say he has not shown a quality football ;

we did not know that,before he was hired,and he has not given a chance so far,others had recieved......beside,is not like, we have been used to a far better performance by previouse coaches......,it is very possible,for a man outsider for 30 years,some getting used to is needed,...he has not been given a chance yet,and hiring coaches can not be so much jerking in and jerking out.....,the normal term to see what a coach can do,is about three years .

.................................................. .................................................. ...

Ghotbi, how ever,has shown some qualities,very few has,particularly among domestic coaches.........such as,use of psycology,use of nonconfrontational approch,respect of fans,and tenacity with the govenment,and knowledge of English language, Internet,coaching connections,and better knowledge of today football,compare to domestic coaches...

.................................................. .................................................

All in all,he may not be great for the job, but considering the limitations of the system,and past inferior coaches,he certainly deserves to at least show what he can do.....or not be fired untill he has damaged TM chances !

[Doctor DOOM]

All criticisms to Ghotbi, are either Not true,or inconsiquential,or illwilled,or out of jelousy,or irrelevent,or illogical,.....

right. becoz;
clearly he has been successful in whatever he's done for TM.
he took us to the WC, coz as he said, he knew exactly how the koreans play like the back of his hand.
his team plays fantastic football, flawlessly
he has introduced great strategies and tactics that has made TM stand out in asia
he has been unbeaten and has been cutting through all opposition
his player selection, arrangements and subbing has been sublime and testament to that is the great unbeaten run he's had
his degree has been produced and is from a reputed academy
he has actually coached (contrast it to "others" who just filed up pre-made forms on the computer with numbers and data) in other countries
he has ...

oh hang on a minute ...... you meant "ghotbi" , not "ghatebeh".
oh, in that case I can not disagree with your statement enough.
in the end, you seem to bring the same tired issues of "english speaking, internet browsing, tenacity (??? more like khaye maali), psychology (????) and others again as if none of these have been discussed with refuting examples.

which takes me back to my old saying: some are happy with a simply omlette, while others want more.
at least some of us enjoy watching his team play ... despite the desperate struggle to pass or to find/exploit weaknesses of opponents, and deserting players and inability to create chances, fumble in midfield, and .... etc.

but, hey ... he is one of 'us' ... meaning an Iranian from outside Iran. and an american, to top it.
that's important .... I guess !!!

=============

on the other hand I say MEHDI TARTAR is a far superior coach to ghotbi or anyone like ghotbi.

- he has not only shown , but PROVEN to be a master in psychological matters. tried things that even the likes of lippi and wenger havent.
- he is also a very gentle, soft spoken, but energetic coach who regularly pays tribute to the poor of southern tehran

- he has worked and has been endorsed by many national AND INTERNATIONAL COACHES like the dutch Aari haan, the turk denizli, the yugoslav stanko, and a couple of german coaches whose name I've forgotten, the great IVIC and Ciro (blazevic). now, that's an impressive resume.

- and he has an email account ( m.tartar@topfootballcoach.com ) on the net, which clearly proves he is keeping abreast of the cutting edge of world football, tactics, strategies, innovations ... etc

- his teams play a free flowing game of total football that reminds us of the 70's holland.

- his players love him. so much that they change clubs along with him, wherever he goes (which is yet another evidence of his mastery of psychology)

- he has lived abroad for some time, so he is an enlightened fellow, who is familiar with western ideals, values and culture. open minded and definitely progressive.

- he speaks 4 different languages besides farsi, which means he is well informed and highly intelligent (how many does ghotbi speak? 1 (english) + half (farsi) ?

- his coaching degree is AAA+, which 2 A's higher than the regular A. I think the + is for exemplary display of psychology ... according to those who have seen the degree.

- ...etc

o why shd we not have the superior tartar as TM coach? dont you agree?