Iran - Mexico game Pre-visited !

[zzgloo]

ZZ jan, look at the attandance. http://slam.canoe.ca/StatsFBP/BC-FBP...ATTCOMP-R.html

36K average 2003, 37K for 2004, , as much as you say they didn't have fan support, (and I do agree they are last on that category), but they still manged to average 36k per game

you be surprised how misleading this number is. Dallas and pitsburg and patriots and ..etc are no where near the top either, a team like Washington or NY would be on top and they have not won a thing in 20 years. Contridiction? Not at all. just business.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance

But I tell you, for a team like Arizona who has never ever won anything, then +30k fans are plenty of support, and there were many days that 50K or 60k showed up but they kept letting them down. so a lot of people left., now they are wining some, and people are coming back. (2005 the attancdance was 42k), and if they do better this year, the attendance will rise again.


Look, fans can be 1 or a milion, they can not play the game for the players. they can not coach. All they do is cheer or moan. 5 IPL leagues only two won by SS and PP. three by teams that got no fans , at least not many.

If your main point is "chicken or Egg", then we are wasteing time. you know there is no answer there.

but this is no chicken and egg question here. I think you may be mixing to different issues. For A country to have a successfull football it must have three things,

1. LOVE for the game, (that's why we don't play baseball in Iran)
2. Talent Pool (population that plays the game, Brazil, Argentina, EU,Africa..)
3. Infrastructure.

you may be mixing that love(1), with the role of fan support on the success of a team.

fan support had nothing to do with France beating the crap out of Brazil, but Fan support has a lot to do with the livelyhood of French football. If French people didn't like football enough, they would not have cared to have the league and the stadiums and the players and the ... So in away althogh love for football (which is shown through Fan support), is the start of everything, and the basis for everything, it is not what makes a team win or loose. there are a ton of other things responsible for that.

God bless you, behzad jan.......
I see your points,and agree with them,untill which is frist !!
I live in a city like phynix.....with the history of failier in NFL..but, since 7 years ago, excesive fan base...( not 36 k, which is not enough to open a subway sanwich shop )by critisizing the ownership, they made him to sell,and encouraged buyers to buy, someone who wants to do something.and they have done much better since..( Atlanta ).
these will not garantee a superball,nor WC championships...but it defenetly garantees haveing something so say at all time...which infact,because "the ball is round,as they say "you need to keep knocking the door.
you may say:
1-love of football
2-talent pool
3-inferstructure.
but all these,are as the result of fans.

[BehzadB]

you may say:
1-love of football
2-talent pool
3-inferstructure.
but all these,are as the result of fans.

of course, if there were no people, there wouldn't be anyone to create the game, nor would there be fans, and noone would be playing it or watching. But I am sure when we were talking about Fan's role on TM's success we were not talking about phillosophy. We have to keep in mind the context of the discussion. Fan support, would have nothing to do with WC's result. But what Iranian people (the society which includes the football fans) do to imporve their football is what will decide where Iranian football will be in 20 years. As it is whith anything else in life not just football.

[zzgloo]

of course, if there were no people, there wouldn't be anyone to create the game, nor would there be fans, and noone would be playing it or watching. But I am sure when we were talking about Fan's role on TM's success we were not talking about phillosophy. We have to keep in mind the context of the discussion. Fan support, would have nothing to do with WC's result. But what Iranian people (the society which includes the football fans) do to imporve their football is what will decide where Iranian football will be in 20 years. As it is whith anything else in life not just football.

I agree 100%,...in your opinion,( which I agree ) fans have nothing to do if England becomes champion or not, nor fans in portugal have anything to do with the future result they would have against mexico..........am I understanding you well ?
And in my opinion,fans have everything to do, with countries like Iran, or cameroon,for thier success. and lack of fans, influenece India to not have football.....as countries such as us, which are in thier football renesaunce does. in our situation the help of our fans is most essential ,rather than investment,inferstructure,which is non existant.....we are in a different dimetion of football evelution.and things conserning,Germany,england and Italia, do not apply to our situation.

[BehzadB]

I agree 100%,...in your opinion,( which I agree ) fans have nothing to do if England becomes champion or not, nor fans in portugal have anything to do with the future result they would have against mexico..........am I understanding you well ?
And in my opinion,fans have everything to do, with countries like Iran, or cameroon,for thier success. and lack of fans, influenece India to not have football.....as countries such as us, which are in thier football renesaunce does. in our situation the help of our fans is most essential ,rather than investment,inferstructure,which is non existant.....we are in a different dimetion of football evelution.and things conserning,Germany,england and Italia, do not apply to our situation.

No zz jan, it has nothing to do with england or Iran or japan. It's the same thing.

you see, there are two sides to this question. One is the role of fan support on How well or how bad a team does in it's games, two is the qustion of fundamental/social support for football. If people of a country don't like football, then there will not be a good football team there, that goes without saying. But if there are fans that kill themselves over their football team it does not mean their team is going to win a championship or even be a good team. It only means there is love for the game of football in that region or country. Now it needs a 1000 other things to make a champion or a successfull team.

for example: the fan support and the enthusiasm of the abadani fans towards their team can not be denied. they have supported Sanat for decades now uner the harshest conditions. But look at how many times they have won the title. Never. they have beaten PP only once in their lifetime. But foolad has won a championship already and they have been around what 6 or 7 years? and they got about 500 fans in Ahvaz. (why did foolad or Zob or Paas or Sepahan win?) because they did those things that were needed to make a good football team and win. without any fan support.

that's what I am saying.

[zzgloo]

Behzad jan, I hope i am not boring you with 'not so important a issue 'but,what you are saying,can only explain close competition and level feild....such as the difference between england and portugal....or the difference between zobe-ahan and sanat-naft......
But it does not explain,why the football of Ali parvin and kalani...with slow pace and inconsistancies would change to mahdavikia-hashemian-karimi....
it does not explain the giant leap we have had since 15 years ago..it does not explain our successes in u21,omid,univercities,and asian club levels all at the same time. It does not explain why we have this site now,so we can exchange ideas, but we did not have it then.It does not explain why we compete with the countries that spend far more money on football than we do.

[Mansoor]

With all due respect, I don't think that kind of Trickery will work at the WC. What makes you (and/or branko) think that playing 2 DM or 1 will catch those teams off guard. and even if in our wildest dream it did, it shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to make the adjustment. Iran will play either with ONE or Two strikers and neither will be a surprise for any team.

Besides, a team that has worked on a certain system for years, is not ging to change it, just for the WC games, with the hopes of catching the other team off guard. That's a lame tactic to say the least. How much could the Portugal or Mexican or Angolan team care about Alavi being on the field or on the bench?
..

You gotto be kidding. Keeping the opponent guessing is the oldest trick in the book. I am surprised you still don't know Branko well. This is one of the main characteristics that you can attribute to him. He LOVES to keep the opponent guessing. He hates to talk about his team's plans, his strategies, the weaknesses, and the other teams weaknesses. He is SO secretful. And that has always been part of the problem between him and media. Media asks questions that he doesn't like to answer due to above and instead, just says something simple or politically correct, and that pisses people off.

Any how, while what I said was what I think Branko thinks, but at the same time, I must tell you having one or two defensive midfielders makes a huge difference in the game plan. And, please, it doesn't take the opponent 5 min to adjust!? First, it takes them 20-25 min to study the opponent (by the book). Then, if they have to make player adjustment, that means either change of line up, or change of players. Both of which will mess up their own plan, and therefore decide otherwise unless becomes absolutely necessary. The game of reading opponent and adjustment is a HUGE chess match between the two coaches of teams in close level. And as a side note, what Branko likes to do in the chess match, is start with one formation, and dynamically change it during the match, so by the time the opponent react, they have to face another adjustment. I am surprised with your experience you take this part of the coaching game so trivial ...

Cheers.

p.s On the subject of "Besides, a team that has worked on a certain system for years, is not ging to change it, just for the WC games", Iran has not played 4-2-3-1 for over a year except partial part of Korea match. And don't forget the formation changes DURING Asian cup, and DURING WC qualifications.

[Mansoor]

I don't buy the notion that the FANS no matter how critical or supportive, can have any effect on the outcome or the performance of a team that is formed by 23 PROFESSIONAL players and professional staff.

So "the race for home court advantage" in multi billion dollar sports of NBA & NFL is just a myth! They are as professional as they can get, and show up so differently when playing at home vs road. Of course it is not the main factor as every visiting team wins or loses, but it does have MAJOR effect. I was a witness to fans "mega" support in Houston when Rockets won the championship in a year they called Houston "choke city". Fans support made a huge difference in Rockets come back to win it all ...

Emotion and psycology play a major role in most of the sports worldwide, professional or else. Fans support plays a major role in positive drive ....

[BehzadB]

So "the race for home court advantage" in multi billion dollar sports of NBA & NFL is just a myth! They are as professional as they can get, and show up so differently when playing at home vs road. Of course it is not the main factor as every visiting team wins or loses, but it does have MAJOR effect. I was a witness to fans "mega" support in Houston when Rockets won the championship in a year they called Houston "choke city". Fans support made a huge difference in Rockets come back to win it all ...
Emotion and psycology play a major role in most of the sports worldwide, professional or else. Fans support plays a major role in positive drive ....

the most pasionate fans in NBA are in Sacramento. what have they won? Game 7 against the lakers with all their cowbells, didn't help. how many years have they been in the NBA. No titles. Not even a trip to the finals.

I think you are mixing up the issue here. Yes home court advantage is important. We played against Ireland we needed two goals to stay alive. we got ONE.

Houston was on the verge of elemination the first year they won the NBA title. Down to game 5 (down 3-1 in the series) and a last second 3 pointer by (i think mario elie) in Pheonix won that game. they went on to win the championship that year and the following year. And what happend after that? why didn't they keep wining the title? Because fan support went away? NO. Because A LOT of other things happend.

ofcourse the homecourt advantage is better to have, because if you don't have it, your opponant has it, and you have to go to their arean and play them. But this is different than saying if you have fan support you win if you don't you loose (and that was the disscussion here, which I disagreed with). in NBA or NFL the teams are so close to each other in terms of their abilities. there is parity everywhere. the homecourt advantage gives a team an edge, (sometimes), when all other things are almost equal.

didn't the same Houston team or Detroit or SanAntonio or many others, have fanbase for decades. Why din't they win anything until the likes of Hakeem or Thomas, or Jordan or came along and won for their teams? Why were the Lakers and Boston Celtics able to dominate everyone else, eventhough they all had fans filling up the seats in their stadiums.

as I told zz, you can say, if the guy that spent those bilions on the team, was not a big fan of basketball or/ and if he didn't spend the right money then that would make the team weak or even non-existant. well ofcourse. But is that really what the question was?

Besides, the homecourt advantage didn't help Milan, did it? we don't play WC games in Tehran, we play them in Germany. There is no homecourt for anyone, but the German team. We played Asia games in China and Bussan in Korea. we din't do too bad there. But we couldn't get one goal scored on Bahrain in 2001 in Azadi. Homecourt advantage at a proffesional level is overrated.

And if you follow Pro sports in the U.S you must have heard this phrase before. The sign of a Good team is that it can win ON THE ROAD. Why do you think that is?

I say it again, the fans are the passion of the game, a lot of other things decided how good or how poor a team does.

[BehzadB]

You gotto be kidding. Keeping the opponent guessing is the oldest trick in the book. I am surprised you still don't know Branko well. This is one of the main characteristics that you can attribute to him. He LOVES to keep the opponent guessing. He hates to talk about his team's plans, his strategies, the weaknesses, and the other teams weaknesses. He is SO secretful. And that has always been part of the problem between him and media. Media asks questions that he doesn't like to answer due to above and instead, just says something simple or politically correct, and that pisses people off.
Any how, while what I said was what I think Branko thinks, but at the same time, I must tell you having one or two defensive midfielders makes a huge difference in the game plan. And, please, it doesn't take the opponent 5 min to adjust!? First, it takes them 20-25 min to study the opponent (by the book). Then, if they have to make player adjustment, that means either change of line up, or change of players. Both of which will mess up their own plan, and therefore decide otherwise unless becomes absolutely necessary. The game of reading opponent and adjustment is a HUGE chess match between the two coaches of teams in close level. And as a side note, what Branko likes to do in the chess match, is start with one formation, and dynamically change it during the match, so by the time the opponent react, they have to face another adjustment. I am surprised with your experience you take this part of the coaching game so trivial ...
Cheers.
p.s On the subject of "Besides, a team that has worked on a certain system for years, is not ging to change it, just for the WC games", Iran has not played 4-2-3-1 for over a year except partial part of Korea match. And don't forget the formation changes DURING Asian cup, and DURING WC qualifications.

It maybe the oldest trick in the world and that's why it's not gonna work against the likes of Mexico , portugal or even Angola. These are WC teams.

If you and or Branko thinks they can catch the teams off guard (as to with ONE DM or Two) then you and branko don't think much of Mexico or portugal or Angola.

When I said it would take them 5 minutes to figure it out I was being KIND, it wouldn't take them 5 minutes either. When our team comes on the field, for the cerimony and line up to take pictures, the other coach would know if we are playing with 2 DM or with one. I would know as soon as we see the line up, and I am not even a coach.

I just don't think hiding your FORMATION is much of a trick. You could hide a Tactic or two, and use that against a specific team. Or a set play trick. But I don't think , avoiding to answer if he will use 2 DM (which he did say he prefers) or 1 Dm in the months before the WC is going to make the coaches of Mexico or Portugall all anxious not knowing what to do with Iran when the game starts.

Sure, it will take 10 or 20 minutes for teams to feel each other out, but no matter if Branko uses 1 or 2 or 3 or none at DM, the other team will not be cought off guard. If that's a tactic, it's a lame one.

[BehzadB]

Behzad jan, I hope i am not boring you with 'not so important a issue 'but,what you are saying,can only explain close competition and level feild....such as the difference between england and portugal....or the difference between zobe-ahan and sanat-naft......
But it does not explain,why the football of Ali parvin and kalani...with slow pace and inconsistancies would change to mahdavikia-hashemian-karimi....
it does not explain the giant leap we have had since 15 years ago..it does not explain our successes in u21,omid,univercities,and asian club levels all at the same time. It does not explain why we have this site now,so we can exchange ideas, but we did not have it then.It does not explain why we compete with the countries that spend far more money on football than we do.

But you din't ask me to explain the leap or the change of Kalani to Kia. did you? No. You asked about fan support and it's relation to how good or how bad a team does. And I say, although football porgrams need their fans to flourish, the results teams get has nothing to do with fans. Zob and Sanat are such examples. Brazil loosing to France is such example. this is different than the debate that says, brazil and fance are good fooball countries because there are so many people there that love football. this "LOVE" is the one I refered to in my earlier post where football needs 3 things to be successfull in a country or region. 1. LOVE for the game of football, 2. talent Pool, 3. infrastructure.

We had fan support with Parvin and kalani too. We supported our under 23 teams 30 years ago too and 20 years ago and 10 years ago and a few years ago and we still do right now.

It took planning and "progress of football" (to sum it up) that brought those changes. Now you gonna come back and say "people" have to do the planing and what is needed to progress football, therefore if people were not there to begin with there would be no planing and no football. Well ofcourse it starts with people, we can't have the birds in the sky to come here and build football programs.

Look, the coaches say, we do the best we can. But it is up to the players to deliver and execute the tactics. Even the coach can not take 100 blame or credit for wins or losses, and you want to make the fans responsible for that? I don't get it.

[Doctor DOOM]

faraz jan,

1- by "numbers", I meant the rather flattering fifa rankings that dont reflect much in terms of team's strenghts.

2- "wrong" selection.
what else shd convince one that playing an out of form player as fixed is wrong?
would the player being benched at his club, be testament ?

mind you, remember, at a club, the coahc does NOT have the luxury of choosing from a rather unlimited number of players, as in national teams.
once they choose the squad, they are stuck with it for the rest of the season,

but at national teams, the caoch has the luxury of changing one, two, 5 , all 22 players anytime he likes.

all of which makes a case like zareh's a ridiculous one to defend.

lets all face it. the guy is out of form, and is playing very poorly.
has been doing so for sometime now ( any corelation between assurance given by branko on him being fixed at TM, no matter what ? I think so ).

now you want me to accept some generalizing theory that x knows and y doesnt know and ... , when it is clear as day that this so and so player is NOT right for the TM ?
common sense ham khoob chiziyeh.

3- CR game.
well what do you want me to say?
twist the truth?
we DID face CR's reserves. no matter how we want to twist it.

and if you like to keep that as a bench mark for what we'll face at WC, then buddy, you are in for a rude surprise !

thanks to branko , dadkan and IFF, TM faced almost no-1 worthy for its run up to the WC !
now, shd we lower our measuring stick and standards just to suit and conform to branko's way of thinking?
I, personally will not do so.
anyone else has his own rights to do what they will.


=============================


behzad jan, I know what u mean.

I, too, say we must aim high and try to reach new limits , rather than stay within our comfort zone ( just as some friends would like, so they could excuse branko's limited , mediocre mentality ).

I say we shd emulate cameroon, senegal, turkey, nigiria, korea, ... .

but that does NOT mean we do it with a team that COULD be far stronger ( due to many factors already mentioned ), but is not, becoz we are victims of branko's insecurity, bias, double standards, laj baazi and cautious mediocrity !!

this is not TM at its maximum best.

to do a senegal or a cameroon, we MUST be at our maximum best.

which means we shd NOT bend our heads and accept out of form players, wrong systems, harmful decision, .... just becoz x is the coach !
this way we shall never be a cameroon or senegal.
never.




in fact the whole purpose of this hypothetical scenario ( original post in the thread ) IS to underline those hinderances and obstacles that WILL get in our way of doing something great.

choosing a team not based on form and present performance, but based on "names" and "performances of 2 years back" , will lead only in one direction:
TM's ruin !

and sadly, it is not restricted to only one factor of "player selection". it's also about wrong tactics, wrong system of substitution, wrong formation, wrong .... !
wrong, coz I dont keep n korea as my bench mark for greatness.
wrong , coz I KNOW we can do more, coz we HAVE much more potential.

[zzgloo]

But you din't ask me to explain the leap or the change of Kalani to Kia. did you? No. You asked about fan support and it's relation to how good or how bad a team does. And I say, although football porgrams need their fans to flourish, the results teams get has nothing to do with fans. Zob and Sanat are such examples. Brazil loosing to France is such example. this is different than the debate that says, brazil and fance are good fooball countries because there are so many people there that love football. this "LOVE" is the one I refered to in my earlier post where football needs 3 things to be successfull in a country or region. 1. LOVE for the game of football, 2. talent Pool, 3. infrastructure.

We had fan support with Parvin and kalani too. We supported our under 23 teams 30 years ago too and 20 years ago and 10 years ago and a few years ago and we still do right now.

It took planning and "progress of football" (to sum it up) that brought those changes. Now you gonna come back and say "people" have to do the planing and what is needed to progress football, therefore if people were not there to begin with there would be no planing and no football. Well ofcourse it starts with people, we can't have the birds in the sky to come here and build football programs.

Look, the coaches say, we do the best we can. But it is up to the players to deliver and execute the tactics. Even the coach can not take 100 blame or credit for wins or losses, and you want to make the fans responsible for that? I don't get it.

Behzad e aziz......we are saying different things, and we are both right in my opinion.....In continuation of my view, Had we had " Rinus michell "the coach of Holland in the late 70's,or detmar krimer of germany,and thier managements,,,we would not have had the world fifa rank of 15, but it sounds to me, you believe we would have.

[BehzadB]

...In continuation of my view, Had we had " Rinus michell "the coach of Holland in the late 70's,or detmar krimer of germany,and thier managements,,,we would not have had the world fifa rank of 15, but it sounds to me, you believe we would have.

I am not sure I undrestand what you are saying there. can you explain that.

[zzgloo]

I am not sure I undrestand what you are saying there. can you explain that.

I wished I knew how to bring up your sentences and address them one by one as I go, as many on this sight do...
( please if you know how,let me know )
based on my understanding of what you mean.....{{{{.football needs 1- love of football, 2-talent pool,and 3- infurstructure.......and further more, you said, although , "progress of football " ( as you called it ) is important when it comes to the result of a game, fans do not matter....and we also had fans at the kalaani time.....and the managements and coaches and decision makeing is far more important..................}}}}}}.
What I am saying.....you are right, and in a result of a match, what fans want can not determind the result....yet , the foundation of that team that is there, is because of the fans, and thier level of expectations and involvements....that is why, a fans of Arizona, are different than fans of washington redskins..That is why, 30 years ago, we were competing with Kuwait, and Iraq, but know they are lower than us.the level of fan involvement pushes Governments and athaurities...it pushes everything....the more they are passionate the more the push for " RESULTS ".
If it was only management and coaches and good decision makeing , we would have had a world 15 th fifa rank in the late 70's,had we had rinues michell,as our head coach, which I believe we would not have....
what you convinently call " progress in Football ", does not happen everywhere, nor does it happen in a same degree......
Coaches, managements, players are all comadeties, the real push for thier exitance are people.....Football is not a park,and intertainment that athaureties have set for people enjoyments.......It has become a national pride,and hope....for many....that is why, fans are the root of them all, and not just because of thier mere exitance, but by thier level and degree of involvement.

[BehzadB]

...and we also had fans at the kalaani time.....and the managements and coaches and decision makeing is far more important..................}}}}}}.
What I am saying.....you are right, and in a result of a match, what fans want can not determind the result....yet , the foundation of that team that is there, is because of the fans, and thier level of expectations and involvements....

You are absolutly right.

that's the reason I said I think you are mixing up two things here. 1) "fundamental" aspect of Fan and social support for "any sports" in a society, 2) what fan support role is on the team in respect to wins and losses in a game or tournament.

these are two different issues. How can I ignore the role of society (THE FANS) in the progress of sports in that society? I kept saying in my prvious posts, IT STARTS WITH PEOPLE ( refering to the fundamental role), not the role you and I have on how Iran wins or looses to Mexico, we have no role there.

P.S

As far as quoting members sentence by sentence this is what I do.

you see when you click quote you see the [quote = behzadb .. , and then at the end of the my text you see [quote] . whenever you want to quote someone you write those two in the begining and at the end of the sentence you want to quote and type your respons after that , then use the same [quote = , and [quote].. for antoher sentenece and write your respond after the [quote]. so forth and so on did I confuse you more?