Iran - Mexico game Pre-visited !

[Mansoor]

mansoor jan,
....how can you deny all those?

I understand you exert yourself to come up with a counter, thus the "we surprise with 2-3 goals in ...." piece.

but then again, I can ask : in the past 2 years, where and when did you see such things happen, against such superior opposition?
give me ONE occasion, and I will concede.
quite a futile attempt, I must say.

but I can give you plenty of cases where the line up was that, the subs were that, the system was that, the tactics and attitude of the game was that, .... etc.

Yes I can give you example and that is why I trust Branko so much despite seeing the problems. The clear examples are Asian Games and Asian Cup. Same hoopla surrounding Branko and we saw what he did. I know you are gonna complaint that this is WC not Yaman & Bangladesh, but that is NOT the point. The point is he is capabale of seeing the problem areas and FIX them. He did that before, he will do it again.

Let me actually share with you my perspective on the issue in a broader view, as we have been in two sides of this for so long while sharing the same concerns in many areas.

When I see a "problem" with TM as an average fan, I am confident Branko sees it better than me. Not because I am a PFDC staff and supporting our friend , but because I have got to know him for many years and I know his level of "education" AND "intelligence" (as a side note, in Iran, one or the other one of these two ingredients is missing from all of our coaches and that is what it takes to be a good coach). If I see an inch, he sees miles! Why? Because of his education, and because of his track record. I know what it takes to get PhD in a field, and for him, these matters that we discuss are trivial!

We dig for so long to see something in the game that he has seen it comfortably. Then, as I trust him for what he has done in the past, I know he not only knows the problems that we "average fans" see, he is way ahead of us in solving it. How? and has there been any sign? NO. Has he had the time? NO. I am sorry but I don't take those few days of gathering (for friendlies or WC qualifiers) the days of "miracle" from above. Anyone ever involved in "real" training knows football takes more than few days to prepare (just see how long it is taking Haan to change Perspolis). He is gonna work on the areas AS HE DID TWICE and fix what he believes is the "problem" in one month of work AND during the competition. To go further than that, if he doesn't believe it is a problem, then I believe him more than myself as to already explained why. I have said this many times; This is when I ask myself that simple question: Is it him OR is it me?

I know one thing: When we are getting ready for a major competition, there is no one else in Iran that I trust more than him. He is not only smart, but very sneaky and I emphasise that. HE WILL NOT REVEAL what he has in his mind till game time. You know what? I think he was even BSing us about the use of 2 defensive midfielders and 4-2-3-1 as he is not a type to reveal his plans. He was just sending the wrong info to the media to cross the wrong plan to the other sides. He has ALWAYS done that ever since I have known him.

I know you don't see him the way I said and I see him, and you don't have to bother with a long one to explain, as by now, I already know your answer to each part, but I just wanted you to see why I see it differently and how I see.

mansoor jan, it is quite noble to say "iran will win, iran will....".
I'm with you.

but alongside this, we must make sure we have a realistic chance of realizing this.

you cant go to a race, sit in your peykan and close ur eyes and say " I will win, I will win, I ....", without the right tires, the right gas, the right pit crew, the right .... , while the rest of the cars are ferrarris and porches, and armed to their teeth !

you go to that race with the wrong tires ( one side almost punctured or airless . I think u know which side by now ), headlights missing a few bulbs, totally wrong and spurrious gas, transmission half out of order, .... and still expect to win anything !

do you?

If your example fits the scenario, of course not. But I don't see it that way at all. I see two teams close in style and level, heading into the field. Mexico even has MORE problems that Iran does. AND I believe in positive energy. For some reason in my life, whenever I have stayed positive, positives have happenned (and yes not all the time to complete satisfaction), and whenever I have stayed negative, negatives have happened (and yes ALL the time to the point of failure)! We must send positive energy to our boys and believe me, that is 50% of the task because of the close level these two teams have.

You could be as positive as you can be as Bangladesh football fan, but it aint gonna happen! But this is not the Peykan with "roodeh moodeh biroon", these are two teams in very close range of each other.

Iran's chances to qualify is held in this ONE match, and WE WILL PREVAIL. I promise you

Now, if you don't mind, I have bags to pack

[zzgloo]

I congradulate all of you, behzad-b,faraz,and DD....I consider this thread as a worthy one with logical and valid exchanges...
We all try to anticipate future,based on our understanding of football and TM,as well as our love for Iran and love for truth,and objectivity.
Between Iran,USA and mexico...if we care to compair them and thier degree of progress since WC 98, it would be as follow.( in my opinion )
1- USA
2-Iran
3-mexico.
We not only have advanced as far as level of talents,and better system and total experience of the players....but also we have advanced in something intangeble ,something I call..better psycology !!,for some reason,our players are not as intimidated as they used to be, and playing against Europeans and South Americans is not as big a deal as it used to be either.We have grown in papulation,in football fans,in football knowledge,and expectations....which in some ways,we advanced even more than USA.

[BehzadB]

behzad jan, USA was nothing great back in 98.

altho' they reached the 1/8's in 94, that was on home soil and with a lucky draw.

so beating the 98 USA is NOTHING like the usa of 2002.

I think you may have mixed up the two a bit.

payman jan,

ofcourse the 2006 U.S is better than the 1998 U.S team. I don't remember comparing those two. All meant was that in thta game (in 98), U.S was the favorite team and what we did was an upset. Had we not given up that goal against Yougoslavia, that would have been an upset too.

Surly that 98 Iran team had plenty of weak links also. That's all I was saying.

[BehzadB]

Behzad Jan,

I do recall such a period, and to blame these "critics" is no different than blaming Branko. .......................


Nontheless, to blame the critics is not exactly a viable scapegoat by any means - rather, the blame must be shared by the harsh critics of TM (notice, i say TM and not Branko - TM and Branko are a union, ONE entity, not 2), unevitably the coach (he is responsible for wins and losses), and the players.

Faraz jan, how can you say that it is no difference in blaming Barnko and the Critics?

Can England blame it's fans if they don't do as well as they are expected to?
And the reverse situation: Can you give credit to the Fans if England is successfull? Not a fat chance.

So when Iran looses, the TM critics are to blame. When Iran wins the "TM" supporters or the coaches are responsible? I don't buy that.

Fans, got absolutly nothing to do with what or how their team (anyteam) does. Coaches and players are responsible for both wining and loosing. Not the fans.

I can't really say so or believe your first statement until we do poorly (which I hope to God does not happen). The validity of the claim can easily be debated.

One thing is for sure - I truly hope I DON'T have to close threads, and that we can put our personal egos aside, be reasonable, and discuss the "why's and how's" as you mention, instead of playing the blame game.

But I gave an example that "my claim" has already happened. When critics were being blamed for the poor showing of TM. You said yourself you remember those times.

And yes I do hope that I am wrong and people can put away the "I told you so" stuff and just discuss the Hows and Whys. But we both know that there is always gonna be some that don't follow.

---------------

I don't buy the notion that the FANS no matter how critical or supportive, can have any effect on the outcome or the performance of a team that is formed by 23 PROFESSIONAL players and professional staff.

I would've agreed with you, when our TM players were all Amature and all had a day job to make a living. that was then. This is now. These are a bunch of milioner players who have milions more waiting for them depending on how they perform. I think they have FAR more on thier mind than what the fans or the Media say (be it all critical or supportive).

Iranian fans and media supported Ciro and TM far more than Branko. We couldn't even beat Thailand or Bahrain. Need I say more?

If anything, Critics keep our Football players and the coaches on their toes. which is a good thing.

cheers

[Doctor DOOM]

1- mansoor jan, since you like to go 3-4 years back to prove something about today, I guess we might as well bring in piyus instead of borhani !

agha jan, asian games and asia cup was 4 and 2 years back.

and if you havent noticed the drastic change in branko's attitude, system and behavior during the past 1 and half years, then you are advised to review this period carefully.


and just for the sake of argument, what exactly is the example anyway?

-------------

2- you trust branko sees the same problems and acknowledges it.
ok.

mind telling us if he knows about the LB problem?
( or does he refute it altogether ?)

if he does know about it, could u ask him how come in the past many games, he has refused to try out a new face who "may" be the answer ?
we see the same wrong player ( right sided defender ) placed on the left game after game.
( a player so out of form that even branko's own brother refuses to use him all the time and benches him !!! yet, he's fixed at TM .... on the wrong position, to make matters more ridiculous ! )

does that translate "an attempt to correct the problem" ?

so if you see someone try again and again , to push a square peg into a round hole, you will say "he knows what he's doing , and I trust him" ?

just curious.

---------------

3- u say he sees it, and comfortably and ... !

fine.
I'm not bothered about what he sees or doesnt.

I'm only bothered about actions and how TM is corrected.
and THIS, I dont see.

what's the use of noticing a problem "comfortably", when no action is taken to correct it?
and we see a repeat of the mistake , again and again ?

very curious.

---------------------

4- btw, I think you have forgotten a basic fact :
ALL international coaches have their teams for very short periods of time.
and branko is no exception that you expect us to allow him a laxity on the issue !

ALL of them.

=======================================

behzad jan, whether we were the absolute underdogs , or usa was a "relative favorite" for that PARTICULAR game is really playing with words.

we all know both usa and iran were not even figuring in anyone's mind as contentious teams.

scale of 1-10.

2 meets 1.
2 is favorite for this meeting.

but come on.
realllyyyy !!

[Mansoor]

No, Peyman jaan, certain things don't have expiration dates. If someone proves to be capable in certain areas, 2 or 4 years does not make much of a difference (as it may for a player of 10 years ago). As I said, and perhaps you missed it, the examples were about Branko's capability to realize problems, and come up with surprising solutions and great performances in a major tournament. Yes, it is not the same level of competition but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that the man is capable of detecting and fixing problem areas. We won't get any where trying to convince you that few days of work only goes a distance and requires longer period to get prepared for a football tournament (yeh I know all those about "then why we pay so much" and all that stuff).
---
LB is NOT our problem in offense. It is the left midfield and left forward. I bet you if Kaabi was forced to advance by himself as much as Zareh is in the left, people had the same conversation about Kaabi right now.

In defensive duties, in current conditions I even trust Zareh's defense over other 2 positions, i.e. Yahya's speed and Kaabi's size. Even though, I rather see a stronger defender there, but what you are referring to lies some where else, and I know IF it is a real problem, Branko will fix it within the month and half long camp. Just my opinion, no obvious proof as only the future will prove it.

Cheers dadash and fasten your seat belt. The world is gonna shake on June 11th.

[Mansoor]

Oh just saw your other 2 points offspring afterwards
----
In general, some problems may not be solved due to certain situations such as lack of talent or many other factors that we both know. In his case, I am pretty sure what is detected as "problem" will be "worked on" to the best possible way. Just to make you happy, I'll be there to watch and report back to you very soon.

---------
Yes, you are right. They all do. But some have Brazil, Zeidan, 300 football clubs with first class facilities to support their work, we have? Let me see, Shamooshak, Forootan, Ebrahimi, Takhti Ahvaz(do we?), only 1 (maybe 2) standard football field in the whole country, players with professional pay and amature personality, cheragahaye Yazd va Shiraz va Anzali .... I need a book to write for this part!

And all those international coaches deal with "their problems" as well. England has the potential to be top 3 team in the world AT ALL TIME, but has she even been close once since 1966? You know why? Same reason. National teams are different circumstances. It takes many many factors to assemble a strong team.

[BehzadB]

................ He is not only smart, but very sneaky and I emphasise that. HE WILL NOT REVEAL what he has in his mind till game time. You know what? I think he was even BSing us about the use of 2 defensive midfielders and 4-2-3-1 as he is not a type to reveal his plans. He was just sending the wrong info to the media to cross the wrong plan to the other sides. He has ALWAYS done that ever since I have known him.

With all due respect, I don't think that kind of Trickery will work at the WC. What makes you (and/or branko) think that playing 2 DM or 1 will catch those teams off guard. and even if in our wildest dream it did, it shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to make the adjustment. Iran will play either with ONE or Two strikers and neither will be a surprise for any team.

Besides, a team that has worked on a certain system for years, is not ging to change it, just for the WC games, with the hopes of catching the other team off guard. That's a lame tactic to say the least. How much could the Portugal or Mexican or Angolan team care about Alavi being on the field or on the bench?

-------------

Payman jan, I guess I should not have used Iran as an example (although I think it is a fair example of upset) ,but there are plenty of them to consider. senegal, Cameroon, Nigeria, Egypt, S Korea, Japan are some of those teams.

All I was saying is that.. "Toop gerdo Darvazeh goshad", ..

[zzgloo]

Behzad-b jan, ...I like to jump in,and with your permission,give my opinion also.....
You were correct in many of your assertions, how ever, saying " Fans have nothing to do with the level of performance " does not sound right to me.
I remmember from previouse exchanges I had with you, you,like me, are also interested in NFL,and american football....and I like to ask you, which teams,in the USA,have more consistancies of success ?...if you recall, the cities that people and the residence care more about football,have had better records, while they do have down periods,yet,they keep comeing back.....
The fan interest,and knowledge, pushes,media,pushes government,pushes athaurities, pushes Clubs, pushes investments, pushes players, pushes expectations.................
based on my opinion...countries such as USA, will not grow much farther than they have,as this is as far as investments will take them...but Brazil,mexico,germany,Italia.etc...will keep getting better.....
And as matter of fact, we in Iran, have only fans to appreciate for most of our successes, as other things just do not exit.as we keep competing with countries in Asia, whom have much better managements and investments.

[faraz]

Faraz jan, how can you say that it is no difference in blaming Barnko and the Critics?

My point was, you cannot place the blame on a SINGLE entity. Coming out and bashing the "critics" is the same as coming out and bashing the coach. Mind you, when I say "critics", I'm talking about the 2000 newspapers within Iran who write tabloid-like material in an effort to sell that extra paper. I am not talking about those who are skeptical of Brankol; those who focus on both the positives and negatives.

Fans, got absolutly nothing to do with what or how their team (anyteam) does.

I beg to differ. Fans are the basis for any team's success. The problem is, i don't know how many "real" fans Iran has! We all have our egos so high, that we believe we could actually field a line-up capable of doing "better" (a subjective word) than Branko - again, a man who made us qualify to the World Cup sitting on the top of our group WITH ONE GAME IN HAND!

Consider this: Iran vs Japan, in Azadi stadium, World Cup qualifier.

Are you telling me the 100 000 people who climbed the walls of the stadium to get in had no impact on our team?

But I gave an example that "my claim" has already happened. When critics were being blamed for the poor showing of TM. You said yourself you remember those times.

Yup - it has happened. The opposite has happened too. I just don't know whether fans will realize that being told "i told you so" or blaming the loss on the "critics" (recall my definition of a critic) will not help the situation by any means, and cause more trouble in these forums.

And yes I do hope that I am wrong and people can put away the "I told you so" stuff and just discuss the Hows and Whys. But we both know that there is always gonna be some that don't follow.

I can't argue with you there. It's a sad truth.

If anything, Critics keep our Football players and the coaches on their toes. which is a good thing.

To a certain extent yes, and to a certain extent, no. It all depends what kind of "critic" you are talking about. I don't believe coming out with BS stories in the media 24/7 keeps our team on its toes. And after all of this, players, coaches and so on are all human in the end of it. They have 2 arms, 2 legs, and a mind that cannot overcome everything, especially sometimes, our damn media outlets who destroy the mentality of our team to sell 2 extra papers.

[BehzadB]

Behzad-b jan, ...I like to jump in,and with your permission,give my opinion also.....
You were correct in many of your assertions, how ever, saying " Fans have nothing to do with the level of performance " does not sound right to me.
I remmember from previouse exchanges I had with you, you,like me, are also interested in NFL,and american football....and I like to ask you, which teams,in the USA,have more consistancies of success ?...if you recall, the cities that people and the residence care more about football,have had better records, while they do have down periods,yet,they keep comeing back.....
The fan interest,and knowledge, pushes,media,pushes government,pushes athaurities, pushes Clubs, pushes investments, pushes players, pushes expectations.................

zz jan, first of all you need no permission to jump in the discussion. we are all here to do exactly that.

As for NFL. yes I have followed NFL about 20 years now. NFL is the best league of any pro sports by about a 100 times. BUT your assumption that the success has anything to do with the fan support is misread. Yes, the teams that have had success have enjoyed a huge fan support, But that is the effect of wining not a requirement for wining. Take Arizona Cardinals. How many tens of thousends of fans have attended the games year after year? for decades. But they kept loosing. And still, Even on the worst days, thousends would show up. And As soon as they win a game or two, more fans show up for week three. But Arizona's bad Record is because of Bad drafts and decisions to trade and decisions to pay the wrong people (players and coaches) over the years and decades.

Sure you can say it must help the team when they have big fan support. Ofcourse they do. At the stadium. we yell out for them to pump them up. sometimes it works other times they still loose. You see!!

based on my opinion...countries such as USA, will not grow much farther than they have,as this is as far as investments will take them...but Brazil,mexico,germany,Italia.etc...will keep getting better.....
And as matter of fact, we in Iran, have only fans to appreciate for most of our successes, as other things just do not exit.as we keep competing with countries in Asia, whom have much better managements and investments.

U.S may or may not get better than where they are. It all depends on how they stick with their pro league and if it can make business sense for them to continue. If they do find a way to make it a successfull business to run a soccer league, they'll keep getting better.

I don't undrestand your last statement. If fans are the only thing to thank for a teams success, then why do we pay Branko and why do we bother arguing over LB and RB and VH and Kia and Mirza.

Are you saying NORTH KOREANS did not support their National team? China? How about Greece? they had plenty of fan support after wining the Europe, still didn't make it to the WC. nah aziz, the support of the fans is the passion of football , it's not the game itself.

cheers

[faraz]

but to compare iran-usa of 98 , to iran-mexico of 2006 is not exactly precise.
.... and before you tout "numbers" which mean little, I am talking about TM's performances.

Peyman Jan, I have to admit,

I'm a fan of numbers. I like winning 1-0 rather than losing 4-3 (especially in the world cup). I like the fact that we have become a STABLE vs UNSTABLE team, who plays unbelievable one day, and just about awful the next. (Remember Iran - Thailand, and the Iran - Saudi Arabia in the 2002 qualifiying??)

now, we have much more talent and potential ... which is going to be wasted due to wrong selection and wrong system and ... .
so it is safe to say we wont be at our maximum best at all !
that too, against such an impressive mexican team?
think about it.

These are clearly subjective views. This "wrong" selection hasn't been doing much wrong if you look at NUMBERS - but if you look at the subjective parts of the game, then it can be argued, sure. Of course, with subjectivity, neither you nor I are completely correct. But with NUMBERS, we bring objectivity into the equation.

you talk about "pessimism".
I look at this as a warning.
do you call someone who tells you dont put your hand in the fire, a pessimist.
he's just telling you, you put ur hand into the fire, you're gonna burn, scald and experience excrutiating pain.
is he a pessimist?

Peyman Jan,

Just as an aside, your wording and wit never ceases to amaze me.

Now, I consider a warning to be very different from pessimism. Here is the definition of pessimism: "A tendency to stress the negative or unfavorable or to take the gloomiest possible view"

Now, I will let PFDC users decide whether what you say is a "warning" or "pessimism".

I'll give you an example:

You and I discussed the Costa Rica match, and I brought up how we dominated Costa Rica in the first half, and that it was something to be proud of.

You then came back and said so what, we dominated the Costa Rica's C team, big deal.

If this does not fit in the definition of pessimism given above, I don't know what does.

[BehzadB]

My point was, you cannot place the blame on a SINGLE entity.

I din't say who to blame.. All I said was you can not blame the fans, (which among them are critics or bashers or even haters). they got noting to do with it, regardless of what happens. That was my point. Of course the blame and the credit will go to a lot of things. From the head to the last member of the staff and players and league coaches and our fields and even politics..BUT NOT THE FANS. Fans are a byproduct of football. First ther was football then there were fans.

Coming out and bashing the "critics" is the same as coming out and bashing the coach. Mind you, when I say "critics", I'm talking about the 2000 newspapers within Iran who write tabloid-like material in an effort to sell that extra paper. I am not talking about those who are skeptical of Brankol; those who focus on both the positives and negatives.
I beg to differ. Fans are the basis for any team's success. The problem is, i don't know how many "real" fans Iran has! We all have our egos so high, that we believe we could actually field a line-up capable of doing "better" (a subjective word) than Branko - again, a man who made us qualify to the World Cup sitting on the top of our group WITH ONE GAME IN HAND!
Consider this: Iran vs Japan, in Azadi stadium, World Cup qualifier.
Are you telling me the 100 000 people who climbed the walls of the stadium to get in had no impact on our team?

I just told Zz jan , the fans are the passion of the game not the game itself. I know what you are saying. Fans are the basis FOR any teams success. meaning ANYTEAM would want to be successfull FOR their fans. But they are no going to be successfull BECAUSE of their fans. Players always say, fans are the reason we are here. ofcourse they are, but look, you are mixing the "meaning of the word" here. When Daie scores, it's like a gift to us, right? We are not the reason he was able to score, we are the reason that he wanted to score. Our happyness and joy is what he scored the goal for. the reason Daie did score in the first place, is because he knew how, not because we where cheering him on. We cheer a lot of players, but only some can deliver.

To a certain extent yes, and to a certain extent, no. It all depends what kind of "critic" you are talking about. I don't believe coming out with BS stories in the media 24/7 keeps our team on its toes. And after all of this, players, coaches and so on are all human in the end of it. They have 2 arms, 2 legs, and a mind that cannot overcome everything, especially sometimes, our damn media outlets who destroy the mentality of our team to sell 2 extra papers.

I meant critics in general way, which might includes some extremists too. I thik that Media issue can be argued separately. I know there are a lot of bad media in iran, but I think our Football Leaders have been feeding off of the same media and they have at times played into their hands. I think our football leaders could have and should have done a better job of separating 2 or three sources as reliable so people can pay more attention to those sources. but All I see from our Football leaders is the same type of games that they have played over the years. They say things in one paper and deny it in another. (who's to say who is right or not, remember Argentina and Ghana? din't Branko say in his interview, I don't know where people get these ideas that we are playing these teams? Dadkan and his assistant told them, but Branko didn't know that, I guess!!!!)

And of course it goes with out saying that some papers do print stuff up for the sake of money and attention.

[zzgloo]

Dear behzad.......My secoundary point regarding, arizona..is that....No, they have no fan base......They only have collage football followers..just like alabama..............and essentialy,Phonixe is a new city,with very little indiginouse papulation....as cities,like san fran..and washington,and Ny etc.keep spending...just like the yankees and the baseball.
............But my main point is regarding ..." The Chicken and the Egg Theory "...and which one first ??!!
In sience, As you know, there are Engineerings,Physics,computers,mathematics,and logics.................but...........Computers are applyed Engineering , mathematiscs and Logics.......,Engineering is applyed Physics,..and physics is applyed mathematics...and mathematics is applyed Logic..../ therefore the Logic is it.
......

In football...too , there are Governements,athaurethies,fans,investments,manegem ents,media,coaches,players....coachs are under managements,and manegments are under athaureties and governments, and governements are under media and fans ( even in Iran )..and media is under fans,( yes even in Iran )...........And finaly..." Players ARE fans " !!!
I like to believe,that the meaning of football should be judged by longer period of an interval . About 20 years ago, The soviet union and Cuba,and japan were dominant in vallyball..but all of the sudden, USA,with a 5 year plan,and investement,created a very strong vally ball team which won the olympics, but since then, the Brazilian, italian,and russian and cuba came back up, and USA has very much resigned on vally ball.
football..starts with fans....stays with fans..and ends with fans./therefore fan is it .

[BehzadB]

Dear behzad.......My secoundary point regarding, arizona..is that....No, they have no fan base......They only have collage football followers..just like alabama..............and essentialy,Phonixe is a new city,with very little indiginouse papulation....as cities,like san fran..and washington,and Ny etc.keep spending...just like the yankees and the baseball.
............But my main point is regarding ..." The Chicken and the Egg Theory "...and which one first ??!!
In sience, As you know, there are Engineerings,Physics,computers,mathematics,and logics.................but............Engineering is applyed Physics,..and physics is applyed mathematics...and mathematics is applyed Logic....etc/
......
In football...too , there are Governements,athaurethies,fans,investments,manegem ents,media,coaches,players....coachs are under managements,and manegments are under athaureties and governments, and governements are under media and fans ( even in Iran )..and media is under fans,( yes even in Iran )...........And finaly..." Players ARE fans " !!!
I like believe,that the meaning of football should be judged by longer period of an interval . About 20 years ago, The soviet union and Cuba,and japan were dominant in vallyball..but all of the sudden, USA,with a 5 year plan,and investement,created a very strong vally ball team which won the olympics, but since then, the Brazilian, italian,and russian and cuba came back up, and USA has very much resigned on vally ball.
football..starts with fans....stays with fans..and ends with fans.

ZZ jan, look at the attandance. http://slam.canoe.ca/StatsFBP/BC-FBP...ATTCOMP-R.html

36K average 2003, 37K for 2004, , as much as you say they didn't have fan support, (and I do agree they are last on that category), but they still manged to average 36k per game

you be surprised how misleading this number is. Dallas and pitsburg and patriots and ..etc are no where near the top either, a team like Washington or NY would be on top and they have not won a thing in 20 years. Contridiction? Not at all. just business.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance

But I tell you, for a team like Arizona who has never ever won anything, then +30k fans are plenty of support, and there were many days that 50K or 60k showed up but they kept letting them down. so a lot of people left., now they are wining some, and people are coming back. (2005 the attancdance was 42k), and if they do better this year, the attendance will rise again.


Look, fans can be 1 or a milion, they can not play the game for the players. they can not coach. All they do is cheer or moan. 5 IPL leagues only two won by SS and PP. three by teams that got no fans , at least not many.

If your main point is "chicken or Egg", then we are wasteing time. you know there is no answer there.

but this is no chicken and egg question here. I think you may be mixing to different issues. For A country to have a successfull football it must have three things,

1. LOVE for the game, (that's why we don't play baseball in Iran)
2. Talent Pool (population that plays the game, Brazil, Argentina, EU,Africa..)
3. Infrastructure.

you may be mixing that love(1), with the role of fan support on the success of a team.

fan support had nothing to do with France beating the crap out of Brazil, but Fan support has a lot to do with the livelyhood of French football. If French people didn't like football enough, they would not have cared to have the league and the stadiums and the players and the ... So in away althogh love for football (which is shown through Fan support), is the start of everything, and the basis for everything, it is not what makes a team win or loose. there are a ton of other things responsible for that.