Iran - kuwait

[Doctor DOOM]

Not even related to football: Best defense is offense

Johan Cruijff: Football is simple, you only need to score one goal more than your opponent to win.

WC 2010: the weakest line in the Dutch formation was their defense, and all the football analysts and coaches were afraid that this Achilles heel would prevent Holland to advance.

But what happened? Because of the good offensive line of the Dutch team the poor defensive line wasn't even noticeable and didn't prevent them to reach the finals.

To stay with the Dutch example, the main thing people pointed out as the weak tactical decision by the Dutch coach was the fact that he was using a 4-2-3-1 formation without a real Center Forward. And that's why all the goals score by the Dutch side came from midfielders/wingers (except for one lucky rebound goal by Huntelaar).

The biggest criticism of Van Marwijk is that he, like Ghotbi, uses two defensive midfielders and same players game in game out, even against weak sides. Just like Ghotbi.

So to start rounding it up:

1. unless you've got a Drogba (or in our case Daei) forward you shouldn't even think about the 4-2-3-1 system. Even the top strikers in the world (Anelka, Henry, Torres, Rooney, etc. etc.) do not perform well when they play in that system. You either need a though Holding center forward or you have to have to exceptional wingers like Robben, Ronaldo, Ribbery (in their top form) AND an very offensive minded attacking midfielder/CA like Azizi, young Karimi, Sneijder.

2. You shouldn't focus (too much) on defense and neglect offense just to play your favorite (text book) formation or be a yellow belly. Unless you're Italian, but then again, like Cruijff said: Italians can't win a game...but you can loose the game to them.

ps: Regarding the "scoring" in every game lately: how many of them was by a striker (10%? and I'm rounding up here)? how many of them was due to tactical planning and team work (so no lucky long distance shots and free kicks, etc)?



pss: Can you make a clip consisting of 5 goals scored by our forwards which you can show to someone as an example of how a striker should function within a team?




psss: MR jan I think it's way over due for you to start thinking (I saying thinking here and not doing as I do not expect hell to freeze over anytime soon :P ) about adjusting your views about 4-2-3-1 formation, especially in case of Iran, till we find a forward who fits that position. We can't score more than one or two goals against teams Daei, Aziz, Karimi, Bagheri, etc. etc. used to score on left and right. And even those couple of incidental/lucky goals we score these days are mostly scored by defenders and defensive midfielders of TM.

The best and most renowned coaches, players and football experts are question marking the (mis)use of this formation. So maybe you and Ghotbi might to rethink one or two things

cant argue with the great Johan.
seems like babak and I share the same style & taste of fantastic football.
(I'm obliged to excuse him for siding with PSV, when I'm more of an Ajax fan myself )


I might add another tidbit to the Italy reference.
playing a negative, even if rock solid impenetrable defense may be good in single matches.
but in tournaments, they dont allot many points for keeping a 0-0 scoreline.
but they reward those teams that WIN (which means MORE GOALS scored ) games.
something that for the last 6-7 years I've been saying on this forum, and ppl still defend that cautious attitude!

no wonder we dont win ANY tournaments, coz we're so bothered about conceding (ironically, not that we dont concede anyway ) that we sacrifice our scoring ability and potential for that.
.... which results in us getting neither job done right and naturally, failing to advance or win trophies.

[Hajagha]

What happens when a defensive team plays very poor against a weaker team and fall behind?

Well, we saw what happened. They have no plan and no ability to score. The weaker team makes their total two attacks count. Still, you have no plan to come back. Your right hand tells your left hand, don't take that sh!t, I am taking it.

baba joon, some body tells this Mr. Qotbi that Heidari-Mobali-Zenietpour can't make a positive move even if their lives depend on it.

Hope, they collect their a$$ together and play a decent defensive game this Thursday as I have many Brazilian friends and I don't want to be embarrassed with the double digit score line.

Cheers

[Paradigm]

I know there is at least one decent right back besides Heydari in Iran (and I do not mean Kaabi), anyone watch the other IPL teams? I am thinking a current mid table team.

One player missed in the current line up (aside from Khalatbari who would have defenitely helps us win) would be Maziar Zare' as he can be relied on to score from rockets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maziar_Zare

[faraz]

Honestly, the team I saw today (first time I tuned into a game for a long, long time), even if we have Mourinho as coach, we won't get anywhere.

Let's face it - we're in a lull, and quite simply, we lack players with any sort of ability, yet we still expect to win! Ma cheghad poroo-im bekhoda...

Agha joon, Bazikone felan nadarim. na-da-rim, hich karisham nemisheh kard. hala hey band konim beh system, beh coach, beh in va oon.

Our success/failure is quite simply attributed to the players at our disposal. Discussing anything else, in my opinion, is unfortunately a waste time in this current generation of players.

I mean honestly - there was a time in 2004 where we had some quality, and due to that quality, we were able to have some logical discussions about formations, tactics, strategy and so forth. But when that left-sided chap mishandles 3/4 balls to his feet, when our center backs gift the ball away, when Mobali misses an empty net from just beyond the penalty spot, I figure it's a waste of time to move onto the next level of thought/discussion.

[St_Mark]

heh. you want player rating?
let me make it simple and easy:

rahmati - 6 out of 10
the rest of the team - 3
ghotbi - 2 (only for bringing in oladi and meydavoudi)

سيدمهدي رحمتي، بی انگیزه و کم تحرک !

نکته : گل دوم را تماشا کرد و گفت : این توپا گرفتنش افت داره میخوام شوت روبینیو رو بگیرم؟

محمدنصرتي(كاپيتان)، پرتحرک پرخطا و کم اثرو در بند تاکتیک تیمی !

خسروحيدري، سردرگم و ی ذره بی خیال !

سيدجلال حسيني، پرتلاش ، و کمی بی تفاوت و در بند تاکتیک تیمی !

حنيف عمران زاده ، پراشتباه و در بند تاکتیک تیمی !

احسان حاج صفي، پرنوسان و پرخطا !

پژمان نوري، ساکن و یکی از موانع سرعت بازی !

آندرانيك تيموريان، ساکن ترین و بدترین بازیکن زمین ! آخه بازی با برزیل مهمتره ؟

ايمان مبعلي ، فقط ضربه کاسشه و دیگر هیچ !

ميلاد زنيدپور، بیشتر فکر بازی خودش بود تا تیم !

محمد غلامي ، پرتلاش و در بند تاکتیک تیمی !

(محمد نوري) (ميلاد ميداودي) و (مهرداد اولادي) 3 بازیکن تعویضی که بهتر از بقیه بودند و در بند تاکتیک تیمی !

قطبی : بچه ها جگر جوجه داشتند ! و دل شیر را برای برزیل نگه داشتن !؟

[Martin-Reza]

A 4-2-3-1 with Khalatbari and Rezaei on the wings might work though..

Yes, I think having players who can also play striker such as Shojaei, Rezaei and Khalatbari of course suits the 4-2-3-1 better than having classic midfielders there.

[Doctor DOOM]

Agha joon, Bazikone felan nadarim. na-da-rim, hich karisham nemisheh kard. hala hey band konim beh system, beh coach, beh in va oon.

(I feel like a stuck record. but here we go: )
... then let us pick the easiest and simplest of systems for our mediocre players and not try to overload and confuse them by forcing something like 4-2-3-1 down their throats.

what's wrong with the tried-n-tested 4-4-2?

what's this "URGE" to say "oh, we have progressed and can play modern formations"... when it is clear as day we cant?


**************

having said that (reference to the "mediocre"), I must say if our players are taken at their peak and best form, we have quite a few exciting players.
maybe none are SUPER-STARS like karimi or daei or azizi who could turn a game around almost singlehandedly (at THEIR respective peaks, mind you. even they had off and horrible days).... but we do have highly talented ones at our disposal.

for example, take khosrow heidari. the guy was a phenomenon last year. so we cant say "he doesnt have it in him". we cant say "he cant be a star"
this year, something's happened to him at sepahan. once he overcomes that, he has the potential to be an outstanding star in TM.

or take Gholami. the lad has the making of being the second Daei. he has the talent and the physic to get there. perhaps needs more time to settle in.

take poor hajsafi. yes, in kuwait game he was poor. who wasnt? but if he is used properly, I am sure he'll be a great asset to the team for many years.

take Jalal Hosseini. it's been years since we've had such a defender in TM. yes, he does have his shortcomings too. but given Iran's record in defenders, he's been pretty solid. and what's even more important, he's been pretty consistent.

take Khalatbari. cant deny he IS star player with bundles of talent and skills.

take meydavoudi. another bundle of talent and skills. but badly used in TM.


and there are some more we can add. the fact is while we may not have MEGA superstars, we still have quite a few stars who raise the level of the team. but they need to be allowed to be a bit more free.
yes. lets face it. our football is not like the germans, where everything works in tip top shape and in perfect synch like a swiss watch. far from it. our football is, at best, half-professional/half amateurish that relies on individual brilliance to pull us through.

look at our past major victories. how many were due to rehearsed, team tactics and how many were due to individual brilliance?

maybe restricting these players into a system alien to their nature is not the right idea ... even if it is a modern system.
maybe the simpler we make things for them, the more they will flourish.
what's wrong with simplicity?

[Amin_]

You CAN NOT play 4-2-3-1 with someone like Shojaei (like Qotbi has done) or G. Rezaei (like Daei did) as the forward! This just shows the lack of understanding of the system! The closest forward we have right now who'd somehow fit this system is Gholami, and after that perhaps Oladi (although I doubt it).

Don't force a system on a group of players when you don't have the right players for it.

Let me put it this way, if we'd have the following players available (assume at their primes) the 4-2-3-1 system might have worked perfectly for us:

--------------------GK------------------
------------CD---------------CD---------
---RB--------------------------------LB----
-----------Nekounam------Bagheri----------
----Kia-------------Karimi---------Minavand
--------------------Daei--------------------

But with the current players it's not smart to play the 4-2-3-1 imo.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

Don't force a system on a group of players when you don't have the right players for it.
.

Look at my signature.... thats what I always say.

[zzgloo]

This was an unfortunate game...,thats all......,we are still as bad or as good as we thought we were, and this game changed nothing.
Kuwait won, based on being lucky,and disoriantation of our TM....due, to lack of focus......,and not coming with a adjusted game plan by Ghotbi......
, the Kuwait secound goal,was just a big lucky shot.......,and TM failed to change its tactics,and failed to improvise.......no matter how disoriented TM was, the game was still winable......

The most important tactical mistake was : " No attack from the center of the BOX by TM ".....only taking the ball to the corners,and cross....and the Kuwait team, knew that......and Ghotbi, did not know ,they knew it.

The bad plays of TM players were irrelevent, as they did not have to be perfect for this opponant, with a total of three attacks.

spredding the filed,Central attacks by midfilders,faster passing attacks,along with long distant shots,would have taken cared of it,even with players giving %30 effort.

[Doctor DOOM]

Yes, I think having players who can also play striker such as Shojaei, Rezaei and Khalatbari of course suits the 4-2-3-1 better than having classic midfielders there.

so if we line up these 3 behind the forward (whoever it may be), even if we keep nekounam (a sure fire fix in ghotbi's team) and ando behind them, we'll be getting trampled on and overpowered in midfield
.

simply becoz none of these guys, especially khalatbari and shojaei will or can help in defending. and that means the whole force of the opponents' pressure will be exerted on the DM duo, who as it is are not perfect and bereft of shortcomings.

and that means extraordinary amount of pressure on our suspect defense!


ideally, those 3 behind the lone forward shd not only be good in attacking AND SCORING GOALS by themselves (very key), but also they shd be good in defending and forming a wall in front of the opponent's defenders and prevent them from joining in the attack.
do we have such players who can do all 3 tasks:
1- attack
2- score goal
3- defend

lets take a look at those who've been used here by daei and ghotbi :

khalatbari - can do 1 and 2, but not 3
shojaei - can do 1, weak in 2 and abysmal in 3
rezaei - can do 1 and 2, weak in 3
meydavoudi - does 1 and 2, cant do 3
heidari - can do 1, sh*t in 2 and ok in 3
zeneidpour - ok in 1, ok in 2, weak in 3
madanchi - good in 1 , ok in 2, weak in 3
beikzadeh - ok in 1, cant do 2, weak in 3
hajsafi - good in , ok in 2, cant do 3
ando - weak in 1, cant do 2, great in 3
hadi nowroozi - ok in 1, barely ok in 2, cant do 3
mobali - great in 1, not so good in 2, weak in 3
Md. nouri - good in 1, good in 2 , weak in 3


I cant remember who else was used, but I'm sure anyone else would also fall short in all 3.

basically, the main thing is to have a player who can defend and score goals to fit in such a formation. do we have anyone like that? NO.
so why try to force a square peg into a round hole?

[Babak agha]

I think Rezaei could be ok with his defending duties, he hustles a lot and the Korea game showed that he also has the discipline. Madanchi might even work aswell as he has the same qualities as Rezaei.. They are not the best defenders, but I think they could take some steam of the defence, IF they play disciplined.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ you are correct that Gh. Rezaei is a good option for the spot ... but as far as I'm reading in sports papers, he is not ready, not totally out of injury and Daei may not even release him and nowroozi!
otherwsie, I agree, he'd be a strong contender for the spot.


as for madanchi, I'm not too sure about his current form. is he doing well as steel azin?


if Md. Nouri was a quicker player, he'd have been a great option too. he has the height and can pass and score.
but compared to oladi and meydavoudi, he isnt quick enough

[Babak agha]

I have to say that I know Nothing about their current form.

[Doctor DOOM]

I have to say that I know Nothing about their current form.

neither do I. but from the looks of things madanchi may not be in best of forms at steel azin.