IRAN - IRAQ (asia cup)

[Doctor DOOM]

@ Dr. DOOM, as for stats, distance run and speed comes up the the same stat, as the second one is just distance divided by time.

Yet I respect those numbers and recognize Mobali was more assidouosly than it had looked like. Nevertheless obviously Teymourian was the more influential midfielder, leading all running stats and not being much behind Mobali in passing accuracy, having one assist cancelling out Mobali's goal.

That Nekounam isn't the player who impresses with much distance covered is no surprise though. He is more a passive destroyer.

It's unfair comparing left striker Shojaei's stats to those of the midfielders though, such cross comparisons with passing and duels across tactical position doesn't work.

Normally crosses are included in passing, I think including crosses, Mobali's passing rate is worse than that, as many setpieces of course always are touched by defenders first. Btw, I think this is 26 completed passes from 53 attempts, so he has 49% completed passes. If Ando and Neko had completed 1-2 passes more, the stats would be precisely the same, so the passing performance of the trio is actually equal.

So of the two central midfielders, Mobali was the lazier one (though not much), and also had less interceptions (2 in comaprison to Teymourian's 3, source: AFC.com stats). Nekounam had 8 interceptions btw.

Tackles even make the picture clearer. Nekounam has 3, Ando 4 and Mobali 0. Again, AFC.com stats being the source.

I also think many very important numbers are missing, such as one-on-ones (number of duels and percentage won) or ball contacts, to draw a fair picture.

Duels undoubtedly would turn the stats even more in Ando's and probably also DM Nekounam's favour.

hala , khodemoonim, vaghe'an yek kalameh az in chizhayee ke gofti ro, KHODET ghabool dari ?
na ... jeddi meegam.

akhe pesar-e khoob, you have played football and have watched enough football to know the difference between a simple pass and a cross (inclusive of free-kicks and corners) into the opponent's 18.

since you bring up rudimentary and basic issues of football to make a point or support your negative view of player X, then I'm forced to come down to the same basic, rudimentary levels to explain matters. unfortunately, I have to do this while I know you know more than this and already know the flaw in your argument. and yet, we waste our time on these inane matters!


lets just ignore international footballers and experts who commentated the game and were gushing over mobaali's crosses (despite the fact that some of them were headed off by iraqis). you tell me, when someone crosses the ball into the opponent's 18 (inclusive of FK' and corners), which creates a lot of danger, even if eventually it is headed off by the defenders, a person with enough football knowledge will count that as a useless "pass"?

yes, in stats, it will not be counted as a successful pass (as in this case). but merely creating that danger and commotion in the box is something all coaches ask for and are satisfied. even if half of these crosses are not met by a team mate.

let us understand what a cross is and what is asked for and what is behind such a move, before we compare it with a lateral pass between two central defenders.


so if we take out the number of crosses (+ FK's & corners) he did from the total passes and inaccurate/accurate passes stats (which, then puts him on equal footing with the rest of players who were not tasked to take freekicks and corners) , you'd see his accuracy rate climb to above 60-65% and more in fact.

my friendly advise: bad line of argument. try something else that at least sticks.

====================

secondly, again, you compare a defensive mid (ando) with a playmaker (mobaali) and expect ppl to sit quiet while you compare tackling stats or similar issues!!

I can either get even more basic and try to explain to you the difference between a defensive midfielder and a playmaker (something that you must already know) , or I can just ignore your post as nonsense, or I can top your baseless comparison with something even more absurd like:
comparing rahmati's saves with rezaei's saves. rahmati had 3 100% saves, while rezaei had none! so rezaei is a shit player.

=====================

I'm also quite amused how you are so forgiving for the low performing nekounam and justify his weak game by coming up with such terms as "passive".
passive or active, ... nekounam has shown on more than enough occasions he does not mark his man, fails to trail him, sometimes even stops running and loses his mark (which often ends in goals), runs far less than the player of the same post: ANDO, .... and many more issues.

so one may wonder exactly what is he "destroying" by this passivity? "his own reputation" is one answer that comes to mind.

na agha jan ... nekuonam (passive or active/aggressive) had a poor game. and compared to the player of the same line, ando, he was miles behind in almost all levels.
you want to compare players, compare ando with neku and let me know what you've come up with.



at the end, I am fully aware you knew all this even before my post. but just becoz you just cant resist putting X down, you come up with absurd comparisons, irrelevant comments on most rudimentary and basic aspects of football and basically waste yours, mine and every other sad sap who's read this thread's time.


hala boro az khosh-hali beshgan bezan

[Martin-Reza]

Martin;
Sorry for butting in. I don't think the point is to compare Mobali vs. Ando. It is comparing apples and oranges. Point was to show that Mobali didn't have a horrible games as many in the PFDC predicted.
We are very emotional while watching the live game, so at times, it is better to take a look at the stats after the emotions subsided and see if the stats agree with our initial opinion.My last statement isn't a cheap shot at anyone, it is a general statemetn to everyone (myself included), so please take it in the given context.

Well, but in regards to passing he wasn't significally better while in all other stats he is trailing his fellow CM Teymourian. So those unfortunately incomplete stats do not prove what you claim in my opinion.

I accept he ran more than I thought, but at least my main critisicm wasn't about general bad passing rates or not running a lot, but slow thinking and sometimes horrible decisions, nothing which is really reflected in these stats. And all that despite being covered by two defensively strong midfielders, stronger than him, what the stats indeed show.

So despite being defensively worse, the only better offensive contribution he had was 2 more passes completed, with no info on what kind of passes he played.

[Ali Chicago]

@ Dr. DOOM, as for stats, distance run and speed comes up the the same stat, as the second one is just distance divided by time.

Yet I respect those numbers and recognize Mobali was more assidouosly than it had looked like. Nevertheless obviously Teymourian was the more influential midfielder, leading all running stats and not being much behind Mobali in passing accuracy, having one assist cancelling out Mobali's goal.

That Nekounam isn't the player who impresses with much distance covered is no surprise though. He is more a passive destroyer.

It's unfair comparing left striker Shojaei's stats to those of the midfielders though, such cross comparisons with passing and duels across tactical position doesn't work.

Normally crosses are included in passing, I think including crosses, Mobali's passing rate is worse than that, as many setpieces of course always are touched by defenders first. Btw, I think this is 26 completed passes from 53 attempts, so he has 49% completed passes. If Ando and Neko had completed 1-2 passes more, the stats would be precisely the same, so the passing performance of the trio is actually equal.

So of the two central midfielders, Mobali was the lazier one (though not much), and also had less interceptions (2 in comaprison to Teymourian's 3, source: AFC.com stats). Nekounam had 8 interceptions btw.

Tackles even make the picture clearer. Nekounam has 3, Ando 4 and Mobali 0. Again, AFC.com stats being the source.

I also think many very important numbers are missing, such as one-on-ones (number of duels and percentage won) or ball contacts, to draw a fair picture.

Duels undoubtedly would turn the stats even more in Ando's and probably also DM Nekounam's favour.

Martin;

Sorry for butting in. I don't think the point is to compare Mobali vs. Ando. It is comparing apples and oranges. Point was to show that Mobali didn't have a horrible games as many in the PFDC predicted.
We are very emotional while watching the live game, so at times, it is better to take a look at the stats after the emotions subsided and see if the stats agree with our initial opinion.My last statement isn't a cheap shot at anyone, it is a general statemetn to everyone (myself included), so please take it in the given context.

[Martin-Reza]

@ Dr. DOOM, as for stats, distance run and speed comes up the the same stat, as the second one is just distance divided by time.

Yet I respect those numbers and recognize Mobali was more assidouosly than it had looked like. Nevertheless obviously Teymourian was the more influential midfielder, leading all running stats and not being much behind Mobali in passing accuracy, having one assist cancelling out Mobali's goal.

That Nekounam isn't the player who impresses with much distance covered is no surprise though. He is more a passive destroyer.

It's unfair comparing left striker Shojaei's stats to those of the midfielders though, such cross comparisons with passing and duels across tactical position doesn't work.

Normally crosses are included in passing, I think including crosses, Mobali's passing rate is worse than that, as many setpieces of course always are touched by defenders first. Btw, I think this is 26 completed passes from 53 attempts, so he has 49% completed passes. If Ando and Neko had completed 1-2 passes more, the stats would be precisely the same, so the passing performance of the trio is actually equal.

So of the two central midfielders, Mobali was the lazier one (though not much), and also had less interceptions (2 in comaprison to Teymourian's 3, source: AFC.com stats). Nekounam had 8 interceptions btw.

Tackles even make the picture clearer. Nekounam has 3, Ando 4 and Mobali 0. Again, AFC.com stats being the source.

I also think many very important numbers are missing, such as one-on-ones (number of duels and percentage won) or ball contacts, to draw a fair picture.

Duels undoubtedly would turn the stats even more in Ando's and probably also DM Nekounam's favour.

[Hajagha]

Since you don't like dude,

jigar:

I don't threat. So, don't worry.

You don't listen to what I say, and I hate to repeat myself. So, forget about the stat issue.

BTW, I am the first peson in this site who had the banning power. I even banned Webmaster once.

So, Again, you gotta know whom you talk to.

Cheers,

[Babak agha]

Who said something about a fight, baba jawooni goftan, pire marde bi dandooni goftan :P

However what you do is zooming in on only one tiny bit of a detail of an entire post and provide a baseless and illogical argument about it. Like claiming IRIB's budget is larger than......where did that come from. You can make that argument about every country comparing it to half of countries of any continent.

This is the football+ forum, and all the kiddin' and "chump busting" aside, we should base our arguments on something more sensible than your average comment in the regular forum. It might be me being naive, but I do expect more from older forum members.

ps: what do you mean by "you should know whom you're talking to"? is that a threat? cause it sure looks like you try to make it sound that way.

pps: I neither was trying to picking a fight nor intended to insult you. Especially since you're a VIP member who is donating to this site to keep it alive for the ret of us.

ppps: if there would be anyone who I'd pick a fight with, it would be my arch nemesis MR about his love of 4321 formation and Branko (and his philosophy). But then again he has the "banning power" so it's a unfair battle :P

[Hajagha]

IRIB budget is more than half of African countries combined. On the other hand, a newspaper in Iran can be a one-man-show. The whole argument started from my doubt on stats, remember?

PS, I don't pick any fight. Again, you gotta know whom you talk to.

[Babak agha]

^ well maybe if you use less "dude-ish" language....

anywayz, dont't want to turn this in a childish argument, which you are trying so hard to achieve (or is it just me miss reading you jokes?) but like I said if IRIB can provide you the statistic during half time for analysis surely AFC and newspapers can provide the stats too!

And like I said before I've been to the company which provides the stats for UFA and Champions league matches. So unlike you, and I don't mean any disrespect, I know what I'm talking about.

and regarding your BOLDED GIANT SIZE 2: Having a Phd, was only one of the criteria! (and I surely hope you didn't get your PhD through the marketing department, econometric department on the other hand....)

ps: next time count to 10 before posting! thanks

[Hajagha]

1, You mean watching football for just 90 min (just like us) and having a pen and paper.

2, And about statistics: unless you're a statician, with a PhD in statistics ...!

1, Dude, for once do that and you will see you need a team of 5 people watching the game for a minimum 3 times. As I mentioned, we (at PFDC) were doing this when you were going to elemntary school.

2, mmmmmm, yah, I have a PhD in statistic. Again, you gotta know whom you talk to.

Cheers,

[Babak agha]

Time and equipment?

You mean watching football for just 90 min (just like us) and having a pen and paper. (I know that there is a softwear that can do that too but it's too expensive and even here they are not using it yet. Why should you when you can pay someone just a couple euros to do it for you).

And about statistics: unless you're a statician, with a PhD in statistics who studied statistics at the School of Statistics, are a member of Statician Board, are married and born to statician, with a love for statistics..........you'd be mistaken to talk about statistic when I'm around

Ps: statistics mean nothing, people can come up with statistic to prove anything; 14% of people knew that!

[Adesor Vafaseya]

two great posts inline with my thoughts exactly.

This team is what we are and what we have. It is not like we left Messi on bench or at home.
The team arrangment showed that there is a thought behind every single position and player. ,

thats what I observed too, and also the below post (about Mobali's position)

First he is good on setpieces as already said, secondly he this time drew some fouls which helped emphasizing on his strength and finally this slightly deeper CM role (with 2 very strong DMs covering him too) suits him well, as he has more space and time and isn't so much under pressure as a real nr. 10, and therefore can do more, without having to make so many quick decisions.
.

exactly!

[Hajagha]

......it's not rocket science.......

Dude, It's not rocket science. There are so many things that you can not do and it's not rocket science.

If you wanna do the stat, you need time+equipments, whcih newspapers in Iran do not have and don't care to have. That's why most of their reports are crap.

BTW, I have done a lot of stats myself, don't tell me how it works, DD knows.

[Babak agha]

^ no but how did you noticed that? Where is your source?

There was a time that Jame Jam 2 would count the passes and even direction & length (just short or long/lob) of the passes for the league games, so why can't they do it for Asian cup games? Just because you don't believe it? In that case watch the game again and count the passes yourself and share the stats here (so we get to say we don't believe it )

A friend of mine worked for the company which was responsible for the stats of Dutch/European games......it's not rocket science.......

[Hajagha]

you DID notice the newspaper clipping I posted above this very page, right? that shd be quite self explanatory.
as for why the low rate of accuracy by defenders ... well going by record and what we've seen all those unnecessary lobs and hoofs by aghili/hosseini (which seems to be an integral part of ghotbi's tactics) sort of explains this low accuracy, as most of these hoofings end up with the opponent!

I noticed and I don't believe on the claimed stats. This is not the first time I have seen stats and none of them had such a low correct pass ratio for the defenders and even midfielders.


You did notice the newspaper is written in FARSI and there is no source mentioned and you DID notice there is no reporter in Iran sitting on his a$$ counting, right?

[TrueBlue]

you DID notice the newspaper clipping I posted above this very page, right? that shd be quite self explanatory.
as for why the low rate of accuracy by defenders ... well going by record and what we've seen all those unnecessary lobs and hoofs by aghili/hosseini (which seems to be an integral part of ghotbi's tactics) sort of explains this low accuracy, as most of these hoofings end up with the opponent!

okh okh!