Iran - south korea (asia cup)

[St_Mark]

good player by wat standards man?
pejman nouri is good by what standards? he is playing a bottom team table of the league and was hardly ever invited to TM by any of the previous coaches even during his peak years when he was playing in the most popular club of iran and asia!
he is just an average hardworking player which have plenty of in iran.

ofcourse, its ghotbi who is responsible for playing him as starting 11 at the cost of a creative midfielder, but for gods sake pejman, do something right atleast! he was 0 in offense and absolutelye minimal in defense.

ofcourse shojaei was equally disappointing, but atleast he didnt start and was used as a sub. pejman started and played for 106 minutes which he couldnt make a simple 1-2 one touch pass to push the team forward. the koreans ran circles around him with such ease!

Players are good with IPL standard. We have played S. Korea before and as late as last year defeating them in their home.
We lost to Korea because of wrong strategy, bad and timid game plan. TM had 4 different strategy/formation and/game plan s in this tournament, first three worked and last one was a disaster. Bad structure and formation combine with wrong choices of players for that particular game turned a hard task to impossible mission. Players were lost mostly and according to Ghotbi pressure got into them. It was Coach who succumbed to pressure by selecting a timid and defensive game plan hoping for a miracle.


My own biased choice for that position is 20 years old Bakhtiar.

[yashar_fasihnia]

Players are good with IPL standard. We have played S. Korea before and as late as last year defeating them in their home.
We lost to Korea because of wrong strategy, bad and timid game plan. TM had 4 different strategy/formation and/game plan s in this tournament, first three worked and last one was a disaster. Bad structure and formation combine with wrong choices of players for that particular game turned a hard task to impossible mission. Players were lost mostly and according to Ghotbi pressure got into them. It was Coach who succumbed to pressure by selecting a timid and defensive game plan hoping for a miracle.


My own biased choice for that position is 20 years old Bakhtiar.

thankyou, i agree with wat u say.
its not pejman nouri's fault that we lost, it was ghotbi but pejman nouri was in my opinion the weakest link and his subsitution for hadadifar or mohd nouri was more urgent than heydari for nosrati.

i would prefer sina ashouri or atleast hossein kazemi instead of pejman nouri who i still think is not even a top IPL player. im just so mad at him that he had no positive impact in the game.

[Doctor DOOM]

As I said in the other forum, Korea undoubtedly have the stronger league (see recent ACL and previous ACL competitions) and they have more legionnaires. Plus they have more international experience as they play in World Cup regularily and have better friendlies.

lol. funny you shd mention that post. here's what I think of this way of thinking:

That is the usual myopic view of things. It's not only about this game, it's about finishing behind South Korea and Japan for at least three consecutive campaigns (AC, WCQ, AC). I am completely sick of this denial of facts and simply blaming everything on a scapegoat.

You can compare strength of league and number of European based players as well.

We have two recent WC appearances with 4 points collected and those teams qualify every tournament and already repeatedly got past group stage.

We are so clearly behind them and it is simply ridiculous to think you can replace the guy on the bench and everything will be alright.

Thank god ppl like you are not a part of fifa committees.... or ANY decision-making committee for that matter.
Otherwise in such a world that YOUR way of thinking was prevalent, we’d see this:

For int’l tournaments, the committee will sit in a room and consider the following:

1- the names of all participating nations are gathered

2- the ranks of the teams are placed

3- negative and positive points are allotted to each country based on facilities, federation, schools, # of WC appearances …etc.

4- at the end, the ranks + the points of each country is calculated

5- they decide the trophy is to be handed to the top ranked team, with the 2nd team named as the “runner up”, and the 3rd and 4th teams, named as “semi-finalists”

6- call the representatives from the top ranked team over to the location and hand them the trophy. Take some pictures with confetti and champagne.

7- The committee to convene after 4 years to decide whom they shd give the trophy to for the next edition of the "tournament"

Huh? What did you say? Actually playing a football game?
What are you …. Nuts? What for? What if a lower ranked team actually beats a higher ranked one? Do you know what chaos and destruction it can cause? The whole magnetic field of the earth could tilt and tsunamis and earthquakes will occur and … etc.

No. trophies are and SHD be decided by the above rules and NOT ON THE FOOTBALL PITCH, coz that opens the door to all possibilities, worst of all a lower ranked team defeating a higher ranked one!!!
Blasphemy!

thank god it has NEVER happened before.
thank god we've NEVER seen a lower ranked team beats a higher one (with better league and more WC appearances and facilities). can you imagine if for example nigeria beating argentina? My goodness, I think we'd have had volcanoes erupting everywhere in the world!

or a north korea beating italy? the sun would have exploded

or maybe a cameroon beating france? earth would have been under meteoric showers for 2 decades!

or if a saudi had beaten belgium? tsunamis would have covered all land all over the globe.

or south korea beating spain?

or ... etc.

you get my meaning, I hope

thank god for that. coz as we have ENGLAND as the world champions for the 4th consecutive time running can attest to your highly intelligent formula for success in tournaments

[Doctor DOOM]

Ghotbi failed because of his defensive scheme and not using subs properly.

as simply put as possible, I'd say ghotbi failed becoz he (and some ppl here too) seem to think a goal-less draw will advance your team to the next round!!
and the ONLY way such coaches win decent teams is through the opponents' MISTAKES (as seen in seoul). but if you dont make a mistake, you can play for 6 days, and they'd never score or defeat you.

[Paradigm]

Let's backtrack 7 months, South Korea in the World Cup 2010 in a group with Argentina, Nigeria, and Greece. They managed to get out of that group but were eliminated 2-1 by an in-form Uruguay in the round of 16.

Check out the articles: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...10/8755255.stm , http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured...nd-of-16/2232/

I think it really hurt Iran not to qualify for South Africa. The focus now should be to make it to Brazil 2014 and do well. The fact is, all other Asian teams are steadily improving so the next qualification will be even more difficult.

If the IFF is smart, they stop being so stingy and will make a budgetary sacrifice to hire a great foreign coach who can totally re-structure Iran's national squad. There needs to be a focus on new young players who can conform to a new system.

Also the same tournament, Australia beat Serbia and tied Ghana, narrowly failed to advance from their group because of goal difference (4-0 opening loss to Germany).

[maij]

There is NO POINT of playing football , spending money and wasting energy IF YOU KEEP saying that Japan , Korea , CONGO ,Albania ...etc is bettrr than us ....???!!!!

You might as well pack up and do not turn up , if you have such mentality.

The beauty of football is exactly that...IT is not always the better team , more disciplined , team , highly technical team that wins .....

Saying that , I did not for a minute in that match, think that the Koreans with their star studded team was at ANY STAGE , superior to our boyz in the real sense.

Wining football is about playing your cards right at hat match and and having the Lady luck beside you at times plus a decent referee always helps

If anyone thinks that Korea was a superior team ..I have to say that is nothing but a myth.

[Martin-Reza]

I watched the game again and I must say without the excitement of a live match, the impression was a bit different.

I must say the two major conclusions I drew was that
a) Both sides pressured the opponent in midfield and both sides had problems with a controlled build-up over midfield, trying their luck with long balls too often, however, the Koreans at least occassionally passed the ball well through midfield by many single touches and therefore created more chances and
b) Nekounam had an excellent game, especially after halftime break, as he was the only Iranian operating with one-touch passes in midfield, but noone else had the reaction, overview and technique to do so accurately as well, so his efforts in the end remained fruitless.

Defensively, also in midfield, we did a very good job. Just that the Koreans are better in combining with little space and time in midfield, which actually made the difference.

The goal btw was Pejman Nouri failing to keep up with the goalscorer, but of course this happens and normally such shots don't go in that precisely.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ the koreans found more spaces around our flanks to cross becoz our formation was a compact one that added numbers in the middle while surrendering the flanks to the koreans.

that's why the koreans managed to run up and down our flanks with relative ease and end up crossing the balls, but due to density of our players in the middle, most of these crosses were headed off and deflected.

but this was a grave mistake by ghotbi. any little mentally challenged kid who's watched 3-4 of the koreans' games would have told us they rely on the width of the pitch for their attacks and are quite adept at using it to their advantage. so surrendering this to them can be a great mistake.
and the goal we conceded was from such a surrender.

surrender of flanks, coupled with a very retreated formation were two major tactical mistakes that tell us 1) ghotbi was shit scared of korea , 2) ghotbi, despite all his claims and nonsense talk of knowing them, didnt know much about the koreans



somebody (forgot who and where i read it) said what really made a lot of sense somewhere in the forums. I wish we had at least attempted to play football and made some attempt to win the game. then losing the match to a superior team wouldnt have been so difficult to digest. but we didnt. against a korea that frankly ran out of ideas and gas by minute 65-70 and merely repeated their rudimentary moves, albeit at a slower pace. but we didnt even TRY to capitalize on this!!!!
we came in with arms raised in surrender and koreans read the fear on our faces and ghotbi's formation/strategy well.
on paper a defeat to south korea is nothing to be ashamed of. but once we watch the game, we see how indigestible this defeat is.

[Ali Chicago]

Payman jaan;

I agree with a lot of facts you say but totally disagree with the conclusions you make.

Soccer isn't American football or Basketball that coach can call the plays. When the whistle is blown, coach can sub three players and have 5 minutes to talk (you allow few minutes for the players to unwind, few minutes to get to teh dressing room, so coach gets 5 minutes at most).

In the hindside now it is easy to say that Ghotbi and team were afraid of Korea. But this is the mentality that 95% of our fans had as well.

I would have never thought I would say this, but in a way maybe we need a guy like Mayeli KOhan who even doesn't understand the complexities of the medern football (but his ignorace in a way is a bliss here), since he isnt' afraid.

Our players, our fans and our coaching staff were afraid of Korea. On the paper this fear is logical, but that is what we needed. To have a coach who says Screw the logic, screw the stats. I thought Ghotbi with his Lion Heart metaphore really will be able to boost moral of the players. Events showed, either he really didnt' beleive in it himself or players never beleived in that lion heart metaphore.

Ghotbi said in the pos game interview that he needed 7-8 players to change the game flow. This can mean two things.
1- Ghotbi totally set the team wrong
2- Or players (as many fans on PFDC and in Iran), didnt' beleive we are as good as Korea if not better (at least for this one game).

[Doctor DOOM]

^ ali jan, let me put it this way then:

1- what are the duties of a coach ... pre-game and during it?

2- and how can a coach influence a game?


no need to get too detailed. lets just brush over the surface of each answer first.

[Ali Chicago]

^ ali jan, let me put it this way then:

1- what are the duties of a coach ... pre-game and during it?

2- and how can a coach influence a game?


no need to get too detailed. lets just brush over the surface of each answer first.

I think overall Ghotbi's game reading during the Asian game 2011 was good. Game against S. korea wasn't so, but we are dealing with human beings. Players aren't machines and math equations that you slove and X =2 is the answer. Ghotbi gambled on having Shojaie in and he thought he will impact the game but he didn't . It is easy to say now that his decisioin was wrong, but it isnt' easy at the moment of the game.
I really wish you yourself get into coaching. Please start with volunteer AYSO (American Youth Soccer Association). There are things that you get it when you stand on the side line and have practiced it with your defender 100 times and still you see the fear in his eyes. There are times your players let you down, and at times they overperform. This is the mystery called human being. A coach to some degree can prepare the team but when the whistle is blown a soccer coach influence is way less than the influence a basketball or American football, baseball coach has.

[Doctor DOOM]

ali jan, I may have coached but may not want to talk about. but that's besides the point. and lets not let that distract us. I still believe football isnt rocket science for ppl not be able to read it and understand it.



secondly, you didnt answer my questions and started to defend ghotbi again.

I did ask what is the coach's duty pre-game and during and the influence of a coach on a game of football.
why I asked you this Q is becoz in this particular game, ghotbi had committed mistakes way before the game even started. from his injection of fear into the team through his line up.
although a day prior to the game, I did say it is ok for ghotbi to start cautiously but the only way this cautious start is acceptable is when he has the right offensive additions in the second half.
but his line up showed his fear of the team he boasted he knew well.
this obviously got transferred to the players. one of the main duties of the coach prior to the game is to work on the players' confidence and self belief. what ghotbi did was everything but!

during the game also ghotbi failed to deliver. if we are impartial we can see his subbing strategies, choices and timing failed big time. except his first sub which was the correct one: haidari for nosrati.

as for the players, you of all ppl shd know as a coach it is suicide to use a player who's not in form, who's shown he lacks energy or have had a pretty poor run of games. or if a poor player is used, more than the player's fault, it is the coach's fault for not only failing to know about his own players, but to opt for using the wrong ones. now, lets get into the .........

you know what, ... before this becomes a tome, let me make my points concisely and as short as possible:


- the coach who fails to prepare the team for a game and actually undermines their confidence,

- the coach who fails to select the right starting line up,

- the coach who fails to read the opponents' weaknesses and strengths,

- the coach who fails to read the game well during play,

- the coach who fails to make the right sub choices (timing included),

- the coach who fails to recognize "form" is more important than the "name" of the player,

- the coach who has no guts to change his captain or star (by name) if he under-performs,
... is at fault.

I'm sure you'd admit these are all the COACH's duties and not the players' or fans' responsibilities.

players are at a much lower level of responsibility
and by God a million miles lower is the fault of "fans".


on the shojaei gamble, I hardly call that a gamble.
when the player has shown extremely poor in form. and not only in 1 or 2 games, but consecutively in several games, I really doubt ANYONE would think this fellow will make an impact.
and besides, taking out your center forward for this guy?
really?
is this what you're defending? are you serious?

[zzgloo]

ganzi.han@footkorean.net

[Doctor DOOM]

didnt want to derail bahram's thread on possession football, so I deleted this post in that one and am reposting it here, where it is more pertinent

with love:

http://www.varzeshi.net/sport.php?go=10-89.11.10.jpg

no wonder he shoved his tail up his arse and rushed to japan immediately, without bothering to come to Iran along with his team

oh, ... and this:

Translation:
The first 3 games showed that Iranian players do not have technical issues and were well prepared (Physically). The problem in our last game was that we had an erroneous arrangement.
Nouri added, we had a very good team and we showed this against U.A.E that not much separates the starters from the bench. It is the problem of coach who forces an ill player (Shojaee) on the filed, because he does not want to take any risk.
Nouri said:The person (coach) who should have accompanied the team back to Iran and at least answer the media/people, instead switched contract and now the players have to be answerable!
مرجع خبری پرسپویلس : هافبک ملی پوش تیم فوتبال پرسپولیس گفت: کسی که باید جوابگوی مردم باشد بلافاصله بعد از بازی رفت و قراردادش را با یک تیم دیگر امضا کرد و بازیکنان که کاملا بی*تقصیر بودند باید جواب مردم را بدهند.
محمد نوری در رابطه با حذف ایران از جام ملتهای آسیا اظهارداشت: 3 بازی اول نشان*دهنده این بود که بچه*ها مشکل فنی ندارند اما متأسفانه در بازی آخر با اشتباهاتی که در ارنج تیم داشتیم بازی را که می*توانستیم ببریم با شکست پشت سر گذاشتیم.
وی در ادامه افزود: حالا که تیم باخته بهتر است به فکر آینده و راهیابی به جام جهانی باشیم و سرمربی را برای تیم ملی انتخاب کنیم که به فوتبال ایران آشنایی داشته باشد و اینطور نباشد که بعد از شکست فرار کند و قرارداد خود را از مدتها قبل به امضا رسانده باشد.
نوری با اشاره به انتقاداتی که به خاطر بازی ضعیف به بعضی بازیکنان وارد شد، خاطرنشان کرد: ما واقعا تیم خوبی داشتیم و در بازی با امارات نیز نشان دادیم فرق زیادی بین بازیکنان ذخیره و اصلی وجود ندارد. این مشکل سرمربی است که بازیکن مریضی را به زور داخل زمین می*فرستد و در چنین بازی حساسی راضی به ریسک نمی*شود.
هافبک تیم پرسپولیس که تازه امروز به جمع سرخپوشان ملحق خواهد شد در پایان با اشاره به وضعیت اخیر پرسپولیس گفت: دوری یکماهه باعث شد تا از شرایط کلی تیم بی*خبر باشم اما برگزاری 2 اردوی خوب و بزرگ در امارات و ترکیه باعث شد که بازیکنان ما تجربه خوبی را کسب کنند هرچند نتیجه نگرفتیم اما در عوض مقابل تیمهایی به میدان رفتیم که کمتر کسی موفق به بازی مقابل آنها می*شود.
امیدوارم که بتوانیم زود هماهنگی گذشته را با بچه*ها پیدا کنم تا مشکلی برای تیم به وجود نیاید

oh and I think this is just the tip of the ice berg. in coming days I foresee a lot more of such disclosures.
and then, there's the navad program too (unless irib tries to stifle it again)
all in all not a very pleasant period for ghtbi and his supporters

[Doctor DOOM]

first nekounam, then md. nouri, and now, khalatbari comes and underscores nekounam's words:




and then, there is RAHMATI's and ....

I expect more and more will be revealed and underlined.



and I still say; all this shd not be about taking revenge on an individual. but an opportunity to learn from such mistakes and making sure we dont repeat them in the future.

those who bring it down to merely an individual (ghtbi) are as wrong as those who try to cover for him by linking all our foundation deficiencies and culture and infrstctr with ghtbi's failure in this game.

so if there is any discussion, it is not so much about ghtbi as it is about a particular "mind-set and Philosophy" towards the game.
if we dont change this mind-set and complex, no matter if Mr. X comes or Mr. Y ... we're still geared for failure.

and yes, I must add that a part of this mind-set is this inferiority complex that prevents some of us from aiming high or getting ambitious and chains us to where we are, having ready-made excuses at hand.