" To win, you need to have the Ball " !!!

[zzgloo]

jallali, The Foolad coach .discribed the state of iranian football well yesterday..on Iranian sport media......and I hope, we would learn from our loss to S.Korea.....and get the massage !

Objectively speaking, japan,and South Korea have left us behind, and Iranian Football, needs,either to accept the latest modern football, or keep dragging its feet,with Dink and Dong,accidental out dated football is currantly playing .

Todays Football, is about " Possession " !!


The above statement was offered by : CRUYFF ,

Cruyff along with Rinus Michell, who revelutionized the football during the early 70s.........., once again..has offered the most dominating and up to date form of football.....,which started with him when he was with Barcelona , and has been copied the most by Europeans..and even japan and S.Korea.........
Short,fast,No,longer just triangular,but pentagon,hexagon,etc.....pasings....and advancement..........what we saw with Spain, and Holland.......is the way to go.....

And, the place to start, is with our domestic league coaches to understand...this simple statement above by Cruyff !!
" To win, you need to have the ball " !!......

Accualy, the exact Qoute was : " You can n't win,if you do n't have the ball " !
..
Former Barcelona coach, player and legend Johan Cruyff ;
..
..

[Doctor DOOM]

possession of the ball is important. but more crucial is WHAT YOU DO with the ball when you have possession of it.
you can have in excess of 60% possession while most of your passes are between your defenders and def-mids. how's that going to help a team win games?


same thing can be said about the number of passes. a team can have twice the number of passes over the opponent. but where and how these passes are done is more important.
and again, the distances run is important, but more important is making the ball do the running, rather than the players covering vast amount of distances, which only gets them tired sooner than the opponents

so we must look beyond the "numbers"

[Martin-Reza]

^ I agree, we forgot to play football. Exception was Nekounam actually.

[zzgloo]

The Possession Cruyff was talking about, was obviously not, Numbers..where a team just keep passing the ball in the back rank,among its defensive players,from side to side , ( which TM did a lot ).......
Those kinds of possessions are misleading........
So, statistics,are not the goal, but the real possession !..that in essence, is the meaning of The Team work !

[zzgloo]

^ I agree, we forgot to play football. Exception was Nekounam actually.

Martin jaan.....
I expected a little more from you on this thread ......you, who said we should accept the realities about Iranian football.......

[zzgloo]

[yashar_fasihnia]

i think to win, u need to make use of ur opportunities.

teams like greece, rubin kazan and intermilan proved it. and many more examples..

to maintain possession is no guaranteed win, but is higher probability of winning.

[Ali Chicago]

I think this team couldn't do much when they had the ball. They did well to win the ball back and hussle the other team, but our team wasn't doing well against a strong opponent when we had possesion.

In retrorespect this was the game that we needed Nekoo and Shojaie come really big and it never materialized in Asian Cup2011. Having Ando, Pezh Noori, Nekoo meant we didnt' have a good offensive support behind our offense. Someone like Mohammad Noori to got a lot of one touch passing and distribution, changing the point of attack etc.

I wish our coaching staff, players and fans weren't so afraid of S. Korea. Last 15 minutes even with a sub par Nekoonaam and Shojaie Iran attacked but too little too late.

[Doctor DOOM]

you see, I was agreeing with you all the way ... until you said this.

I wish our players and fans weren't so afraid of S. Korea. Last 15 minutes even with a sub par Nekoonaam and Shojaie Iran attacked but too little too late.

some of you guys, knowingly or unknowingly, are trying to shift the blame of the selection of squad, arrangement of the players and tactics for the game on THE PLAYERS AND FANS !!??!!!!?!!?!!!?!!!??!!!!!

so what the hell was that idiot sitting on the bench taking $800 K?
shalgham?

what am I to understand from the above statement?
isnt it OVER-PROTECTING a foolish coach who from the first day proved he is no match for asia's A teams (not to mention struggling against some of the B and even C sides too?)

in the other thread I did ask you a couple of simply questions on the issue of coaching, which is related to this too.

[zzgloo]

i think to win, u need to make use of ur opportunities.
teams like greece, rubin kazan and intermilan proved it. and many more examples..
to maintain possession is no guaranteed win, but is higher probability of winning.

[Ali Chicago]

you see, I was agreeing with you all the way ... until you said this.




some of you guys, knowingly or unknowingly, are trying to shift the blame of the selection of squad, arrangement of the players and tactics for the game on THE PLAYERS AND FANS !!??!!!!?!!?!!!?!!!??!!!!!

so what the hell was that idiot sitting on the bench taking $800 K?
shalgham?

what am I to understand from the above statement?
isnt it OVER-PROTECTING a foolish coach who from the first day proved he is no match for asia's A teams (not to mention struggling against some of the B and even C sides too?)

in the other thread I did ask you a couple of simply questions on the issue of coaching, which is related to this too.

A Coach himself can't come to the field and play and defend and score. He selects players select the system. Emotial state of the players during the game is an important factor wether coach's plan gets excuted or not. My statement wasn't to shift the blame only to fans and players. What I wrote about fans and players and their fear of Korea is what I felt. I was in California this weekend and watched Iran Korea in Irvine in a resturant among at least 50-70 Iranians. I was witnessing how our fans were afraid of Korea, I felt the same among our players. Ghotbi definilty has a part in this loss and I am not trying to undermine his resonsibility.

Where I disagree with you is I think you over estimate the role of the head coach. In your world it seesm the players are a marionett in the hands of the head coach. Funny is when the team wins, in your version of the events coach has merely done its job, but when the team losses, it is all nothing but a defeat for the head coach.

I don't know if you saw the Japan, S. Korea game today? S. Korea was a better than Japan. If it wasn't for the non sense PK call for Japan, maybe S. Korea would have played in the AFC final. Same S.korea team couldn't do things that they did to Japan against US. S. Korea against us couldn't establish itself in both left and right wings,against Japan (at least in the second half that I watched the game) it did. Point is our setup was defensive with three def mids, but we dont' know what their defind duties were. Maybe their duties was defined to participate in offense, but couldn't, either because S. Korea is so good, or our players were so emotionally scared that weren't able to do what was their defined duties was.

None of this mean Ghotbi doesn't have a role (a major role) in AFC2011 defeat. He sure does, but his role isn't as large as what you portray it (IMHO) at least. I editted that last statement and added Coaching staff as well. Team against Korea was timid, maybe it was justified to be timid, but that is what we should have ignored.

[Doctor DOOM]

He selects players select the system. Emotial state of the players during the game is an important factor wether coach's plan gets excuted or not.

thank you.
I see you answered the q's here, although I continued in the other thread.
and I replied on the
1- system selected
2- roster selected
3- emotional state of the players prior to the game

yes, GENERALLY speaking, a coach sets a strategy and it is up to the players to carry it out. but dont you agree the kind of formation, selection and strategies selected by the coach conveys either a sense of fear or daring onto the players?

[Ali Chicago]

thank you.
I see you answered the q's here, although I continued in the other thread.
and I replied on the
1- system selected
2- roster selected
3- emotional state of the players prior to the game
yes, GENERALLY speaking, a coach sets a strategy and it is up to the players to carry it out. but dont you agree the kind of formation, selection and strategies selected by the coach conveys either a sense of fear or daring onto the players?

I think in all three Ghotbi did pretty good. He selected the system based on the players he had in Iran. These people in the TM at least 90% of them are the best in Iran.
Emotional state of the players, I wasn't in the camp but at least in the press, he tried to put out a brave face.

His plan overall made sense. To tire the Koreans and keep the game close by playing a scrappy game in the first half. His sub of Haydari for Nosrati made total sense, if we beleive his plan was to play a defensive game and keep the game close.

Ansarifard sub for Shojaie can be questioned, but I am not in the camp and don't know all the details. It will be a crime to keep a player who plays in La Liga on the bench and not try him (granted his peroformance wasn't great).

so in all three aspects you listed I think Ghotbi did his best. When a team loses a game it doesn't mean the losing team did everything wrong. If Iran lost 6-0 like Uzbaks, It was a different case, but Iran lost 1-0. Iran kept Korea outside the 18 yard box. Rahmati didn't have to make so many key saves like the WC2010 qualifications. These are all good things. While our team didn't play offensively well, but did an excellent job defensive wise. For these I give Ghotbi credit.

I have no way to prove it to you and I can be wrong, but for some reason, I think Ghotbi did his best to make players to beleive they can beat Korea and even used the right strategy for the game. But at the end the following plus a single event led to our demise.

1. Our superstars (Nekoo and Shojie) didn't have a good tournament.
   
2. TM currently doesnt' have a clutch player (game changer) What Karimi did in the Asian cup 2003 against Korea.
   
3. All the negativity in our football led our players and even fans to make a super power image from Korea and Japan. While they are better and more organized and all, it doesnt' mean we can't beat them here and there. Ghotbi tried his best to fight this mentality, but Ghtobi ain't Zeus. Based on the current events in Iran past 30 years, it seems our people (quite justifyably maybe) aren't as risk taker. This emotional state can be seen even in our club teams (SS and PP who settle for a narrow wins in IPL).

[Doctor DOOM]

^ ali joon,
you say his plan was fine. by tiring the koreans ... etc etc.
what was his plan AFTER tiring the koreans? the idiot persisted with the same defensive attitude till the minute 105, which was too little too late as we'd already conceded the goal. in fact he got even worse and screwed up his subs by taking out a center forward and replacing him with a pisspoor player like shojaei (now, dont even start saying he plays here and there. I expect more than that from ppl in F+)!!!


if the coach is BLIND or too stupid to see his "superstars" arent in form, then plz dont come and blame the players more than the moronic coach who's got his head up his arse not to see this. it is the coach's fault for playing the poor performer.


what fans think or not has very very little effect on the players when compared to what their own COACH thinks and does. this is basic knowledge.
in fact most of the fans had quite a positive outlook towards this game believing we'll beat the koreans on the back of beating 3 asian B and C sides in the group stage.
so plz dont use that as an excuse and cover for the foolish way the coach handled the game (pre and during).



*********************

From the medical standpoint, I can prove ghotbi’s starting line up and game plan was a major factor in our players underperforming too. In simple terms, there have been medical studies that show the effects of CORTISOL (a stress hormone) on the performance of individuals, as compared to the effects of DOPAMINE (promotes motivation and sense of reward), a hormone with opposite effects of Cortisol.

In the study, they told half the group of individuals that they belong to a group that does very well on a test, which tends to let them do better than normal, while the other half are told to belong to a group that does poorly. In the latter group, that mere suggestion has flooded their system with Cortisol, exerting undue stress on the group, which obviously impacted their performance and they indeed did poorly compared to the former group who were given the motivation and the dopamine surge to raise their performance.

so ghotbi basically raised the players' stress levels (cortisol) to such extent that almost paralyzed them from performing at their usual levels.


proof of the effect of inducing stress on the players versus creating a positive, relaxed atmosphere is right there in front of us: the uae game.
in this game, the players hardly had any stress as we'd already topped the group.
not only that, but the motivation of the players (usually on the bench) was sky high.
both the above factors led to Iran's best game in AC11. better than the iraq game even.
the info is right there. now, it's up to us to either use them or choose to close our eyes to them just becoz we like this coach or that player and acknowledging the facts would not tally with our support of these ppl.







anyway, I dont really see much more sense in post mortem of this (latest) f**k-up. we did the same in 2007 and 2006, but we hardly learned from them. IFF makes the same mistakes over and over, same as the fans who still havent learned to pay more attention to the red flags, warning signals, tell-tale signs of bad coaching.

[zzgloo]

Ali E Aziz....
That Fear and intimidation you talked about.....did not just happen....
It had been accumulated through our recent 8 year history.....in which when ever we played South Korea, whether we won or lost or tied, we noticed thier superiority !!.....we felt it, the players felt it, the coaches felt it......
that is why, all coaches right now,are not blaming Gotbi or even players for our loss.....every one, blames " Our Football " that has lost step ,and gotten behind , South Korea,and Japan !!.......and this is a objective analysis...
calling our loss accidental, or a product of little things, would be fooling ourseleves....
It is no accident, our TM, played misrably in the World Cup, but South Korea, and japan, hold thier own......
My purpose for openning this thread, is to come up with an answer, is what should be the logical course of action to catch up with Japan and South Korea..........and I respectfuly, disagree with your conclusions !