" To win, you need to have the Ball " !!!

[yashar_fasihnia]

agha bahram, we can play like holland and spain but if we put rasoul khatibi or arash borhani upfront, u think we will win?

wat is being ignored here is while spain and holland were playing possession football, their forwards were scoring which helped them win.

infact, in the worldcup, spain played a very good possession football but A LOT OF individual skill of their striker, mainly david villa came to their rescue.
the game against paraguay, spain had a lot of possession but struggle to win. it was villas brilliant lef footed lob over the exiting goal keeper which helped them win. and all those penalty controversies happened otherwhies maybe spain would have been knocked out by paraguay!

against germany, it was a header from a corner kick by puyol which gave them the win.

against holland, it was robben missing 2 chances and iniesta's brilliant skill in extra time which made spain the worldcup.

also during the worldcup, spain played possession football against switzerland but lost because switzerland made use of the opportunities it had while spain wasted theirs.

however, spain had a higher chance of winning by creating more chances which was supported by having possession.

even having more possession doesnt mean u can create a lot of chances. again going back to jose mourinho's intermilan last year in champions league, inter milan had around 35% possession against barcelona and bayern in the semis and finals (both of them play possession football), but was able to defeat both of them with a 2 goal margin!

yet another example is this years bayern, who play possession football under
van gaal but they are belo teams like hannover and previously mainz and freiburg in the table simply because their strikers were misfiring the huge number of opportunities they were creating while teams like hannover were scoring from the minimum opportunities they had and getting the 3 points of each game.

and i dont even need to mention greece and how they won the euro.

yes, playing like spain and holland increases the chances of a team winning a match, but doesnt guaranty it. and not to forget, baghiye team ham choghondar nistan.

spaniya ba unhame ghodrato, setarehasho possession footballesh tu har bazi ba hezar zuro badbakhti bord, az paraguay gerefte ta alman va holland va tu hame bazia har lahze emkane bakhtesham bud!

--------------------------

but yes, with the football talent iran has in general, if it can manage to set up a league and long temr program like japan, and its league hire coaches who can adopt a possession type of football, then we will definitely perform much better than wat we are currently doing, but again, that wont guaranty us trophies and victories against the east asians.

[zzgloo]

agha bahram, we can play like holland and spain but if we put rasoul khatibi or arash borhani upfront, u think we will win?
wat is being ignored here is while spain and holland were playing possession football, their forwards were scoring which helped them win.
infact, in the worldcup, spain played a very good possession football but A LOT OF individual skill of their striker, mainly david villa came to their rescue.
the game against paraguay, spain had a lot of possession but struggle to win. it was villas brilliant lef footed lob over the exiting goal keeper which helped them win. and all those penalty controversies happened otherwhies maybe spain would have been knocked out by paraguay!
against germany, it was a header from a corner kick by puyol which gave them the win.
against holland, it was robben missing 2 chances and iniesta's brilliant skill in extra time which made spain the worldcup.
also during the worldcup, spain played possession football against switzerland but lost because switzerland made use of the opportunities it had while spain wasted theirs.
however, spain had a higher chance of winning by creating more chances which was supported by having possession.
even having more possession doesnt mean u can create a lot of chances. again going back to jose mourinho's intermilan last year in champions league, inter milan had around 35% possession against barcelona and bayern in the semis and finals (both of them play possession football), but was able to defeat both of them with a 2 goal margin!
yet another example is this years bayern, who play possession football under
van gaal but they are belo teams like hannover and previously mainz and freiburg in the table simply because their strikers were misfiring the huge number of opportunities they were creating while teams like hannover were scoring from the minimum opportunities they had and getting the 3 points of each game.
and i dont even need to mention greece and how they won the euro.
yes, playing like spain and holland increases the chances of a team winning a match, but doesnt guaranty it. and not to forget, baghiye team ham choghondar nistan.
spaniya ba unhame ghodrato, setarehasho possession footballesh tu har bazi ba hezar zuro badbakhti bord, az paraguay gerefte ta alman va holland va tu hame bazia har lahze emkane bakhtesham bud!
--------------------------
but yes, with the football talent iran has in general, if it can manage to set up a league and long temr program like japan, and its league hire coaches who can adopt a possession type of football, then we will definitely perform much better than wat we are currently doing, but again, that wont guaranty us trophies and victories against the east asians.

yashar jaan....
I like us to talk about the same thing..so we could get into common ground together...not neccessarly my view, but some where in between,perhaps....

based on your answer to my topic of " TM needs a style ".......I understand,that You believe, TM does not need a style, but just better players !!, in fact, The only point I gather from your post, is, that The way to improve,specialy for TM, is to have better talents !!

My point is......., in order to choose a style,we can see around the world, and see what others have done...for example, japan and South Korea have chosen European style,etc,etc.....
We also see, ( at least I see ), the cutting edge style,that currantly is most copied after in Europe, is what Spain does and what Cruyff suggested.....
in all cases, such style, does not prevent any country from developing thier " Individual talents " ( which you are concern about ), but in fact it may help them develop them even better.....
The point is, to have something in the football, that adds to the value of Skills of players...and not just be exclusively talent based.
All the examples you provided, where all result of playiong football that can go any way at any momemt, but the examples where not " General "...
the general...is to find out why, japan and South Korea, without having superior skilled players, have all of the sudden passed us by !

[Ali Chicago]

^ ali joon,
you say his plan was fine. by tiring the koreans ... etc etc.
what was his plan AFTER tiring the koreans? the idiot persisted with the same defensive attitude till the minute 105, which was too little too late as we'd already conceded the goal. in fact he got even worse and screwed up his subs by taking out a center forward and replacing him with a pisspoor player like shojaei (now, dont even start saying he plays here and there. I expect more than that from ppl in F+)!!!


if the coach is BLIND or too stupid to see his "superstars" arent in form, then plz dont come and blame the players more than the moronic coach who's got his head up his arse not to see this. it is the coach's fault for playing the poor performer.


what fans think or not has very very little effect on the players when compared to what their own COACH thinks and does. this is basic knowledge.
in fact most of the fans had quite a positive outlook towards this game believing we'll beat the koreans on the back of beating 3 asian B and C sides in the group stage.
so plz dont use that as an excuse and cover for the foolish way the coach handled the game (pre and during).



*********************

From the medical standpoint, I can prove ghotbi’s starting line up and game plan was a major factor in our players underperforming too. In simple terms, there have been medical studies that show the effects of CORTISOL (a stress hormone) on the performance of individuals, as compared to the effects of DOPAMINE (promotes motivation and sense of reward), a hormone with opposite effects of Cortisol.

In the study, they told half the group of individuals that they belong to a group that does very well on a test, which tends to let them do better than normal, while the other half are told to belong to a group that does poorly. In the latter group, that mere suggestion has flooded their system with Cortisol, exerting undue stress on the group, which obviously impacted their performance and they indeed did poorly compared to the former group who were given the motivation and the dopamine surge to raise their performance.

so ghotbi basically raised the players' stress levels (cortisol) to such extent that almost paralyzed them from performing at their usual levels.


proof of the effect of inducing stress on the players versus creating a positive, relaxed atmosphere is right there in front of us: the uae game.
in this game, the players hardly had any stress as we'd already topped the group.
not only that, but the motivation of the players (usually on the bench) was sky high.
both the above factors led to Iran's best game in AC11. better than the iraq game even.
the info is right there. now, it's up to us to either use them or choose to close our eyes to them just becoz we like this coach or that player and acknowledging the facts would not tally with our support of these ppl.







anyway, I dont really see much more sense in post mortem of this (latest) f**k-up. we did the same in 2007 and 2006, but we hardly learned from them. IFF makes the same mistakes over and over, same as the fans who still havent learned to pay more attention to the red flags, warning signals, tell-tale signs of bad coaching.

Payman jaan;

Ghotbi put the offensive forces he had in the field I think. Khalatbari, Rezai duo up front probably were supposed to keep Korea at bay and don't let Cha Du Ri and Lee Peyong Yu to joing the attack. The thign was S. Korea midfield won the battle from P Noori, Ando and Nekoo. When that happens it won't matter who you put upfront, sicne offense will be cut off from the rest of the team.

Your beef about Shojaie while understandable, but I don't think Ghotbi gave him a blank check. He subbed him and didn't start him, but he probably thought Shojaie can be a game changer, which he wasn't.

Comparing UAE game against Korea game I think it is comparing apples and Oranges. UAE game didn't matter, Korea game was a do or die. Not to mention strength of these teams.

Are you saying Ghotbi shouldn't have promised Championship (Cortisol vs. Dopemine example)? Players emotional state is impacted by the real atmosphere around them. When only 5000 people show up for PP and SS game that impacts player much more than 2 hour long speech by Ghotbi or TM psychologist.

[Doctor DOOM]

I really dont think I can add anymore than what I've already said.

the only thing is I expect you to agree that merely placing an offensive player in a spot does not mean your team is offensive or your strategy is offensive.
you of all ppl here (since you have coaching experience) will agree if you pull your midfield so close to your defensive line, you are literally abandoning your few offensive elements (3 of them, to be precise).

and becoz there was no player in midfld to act as a bridge between the def & def-mid crowd (4 + 3 ), and the only offensive elements of your team, there wont be any reasonable feed to any of them, especially the stranded single forward, already overwhelmed by the opponent defenders.
that's why poor ansarifard never received a single pass!
and the foolish coach, instead of having the sense to correct the CAUSE of this problem, resorts to merely changing personnel!!!
says a lot about his "game reading"!

and as if that wasnt insane and stupid enough, he removes the center forward & brings in an out of form player.
says a lot about his "knowing his own players" !

that's like DOUBLE WHAMMY F**K UP!

ghtbi's sole strategy to do anything was as usual, lobs from defense to offense. but becoz we didnt have enough offensive players AND also becoz we had left a HUGE space between the 3 up front and the rest of the team, almost all of these idiotic lobs fell to the koreans!
says a lot about his "mastery of tactics & strategy" !!

you, as a coach shd be saying this.
yet .... !


anyway, there's no point fighting between ourselves over the spineless mouse who didnt even have the honor or integrity to come back to iran to face iranian fans and explain matters to them DIRECTLY AND IN PERSON.

I just dont know how he is deemed defensible!!! it's just beyond me

[Ali Chicago]

I really dont think I can add anymore than what I've already said.

the only thing is I expect you to agree that merely placing an offensive player in a spot does not mean your team is offensive or your strategy is offensive.
you of all ppl here (since you have coaching experience) will agree if you pull your midfield so close to your defensive line, you are literally abandoning your few offensive elements (3 of them, to be precise).

and becoz there was no player in midfld to act as a bridge between the def & def-mid crowd (4 + 3 ), and the only offensive elements of your team, there wont be any reasonable feed to any of them, especially the stranded single forward, already overwhelmed by the opponent defenders.
that's why poor ansarifard never received a single pass!
and the foolish coach, instead of having the sense to correct the CAUSE of this problem, resorts to merely changing personnel!!!
says a lot about his "game reading"!

and as if that wasnt insane and stupid enough, he removes the center forward & brings in an out of form player.
says a lot about his "knowing his own players" !

that's like DOUBLE WHAMMY F**K UP!

ghtbi's sole strategy to do anything was as usual, lobs from defense to offense. but becoz we didnt have enough offensive players AND also becoz we had left a HUGE space between the 3 up front and the rest of the team, almost all of these idiotic lobs fell to the koreans!
says a lot about his "mastery of tactics & strategy" !!

you, as a coach shd be saying this.
yet .... !


anyway, there's no point fighting between ourselves over the spineless mouse who didnt even have the honor or integrity to come back to iran to face iranian fans and explain matters to them DIRECTLY AND IN PERSON.

I just dont know how he is deemed defensible!!! it's just beyond me

Playing with three DMs wasnt' Ghotbi's choice, had he not (play Mobali or Noori) maybe we had conceded more even. 1-0 or 3-0 is a loss, but I am sure Ghotib and TM didn't want the loss be an embaressment. He probably
was expecting they participate in offense as well, but Korea won the midfield battle so all our boys could do was to defend. P Noori made that cross to Ansarifard against N. Korea. So against weaker teams these three so called DMs can participate in offense, this game they couldn't. That is whene the AC2011 ended for us. In game agaisnt N. Korea we played a very similar game (N. Korea is weaker of course), but we got two good bounces our way and we won the game and no one ripped Ghotbi apart. This game we didn't get teh bounces (S. Korea didnt' allow us to get close to their box in the first place).

I still think, S. Korea isn't so much better than us (at least this TM). We lost a close game that is all there is into it. We can analzye it to death but nothing more can be said. It was a close game and they won on a shot.

[Doctor DOOM]

Playing with three DMs wasnt' Ghotbi's choice, had he not (play Mobali or Noori) maybe we had conceded more even. 1-0 or 3-0 is a loss, but I am sure Ghotib and TM didn't want the loss be an embaressment. He probably ............

1- you say "had he ... ", I say "had he used any of hadaifard, mobaali or nouri" we'd have won the game in 90 minutes"
who's to say who'd be proven right? it's all conjecture.


2- but you did confess to one thing about ghotbi's mentality (in red) which is supported by his ultra-defensive approach to our team and the game as a whole.
which brings us back to his inability to lead a team or give confidence to his team. to how he prepared the team to lose even before they stepped onto the pitch. to how he stressed them beyond necessary levels which obviously impacted their performance.

your own words.

[Ali Chicago]

1- you say "had he ... ", I say "had he used any of hadaifard, mobaali or nouri" we'd have won the game in 90 minutes"
who's to say who'd be proven right? it's all conjecture.


2- but you did confess to one thing about ghotbi's mentality (in red) which is supported by his ultra-defensive approach to our team and the game as a whole.
which brings us back to his inability to lead a team or give confidence to his team. to how he prepared the team to lose even before they stepped onto the pitch. to how he stressed them beyond necessary levels which obviously impacted their performance.

your own words.

Payman jaan;

This is S. Korea we are talking about not Maldive. Certian amount of precaution is wise. Lack of it would have been reckless. Did you see Uzback Aussie. It can be 6-0 or 8-0 like KSA against Germany in front of the whole world.

I agree Ghotbi was extra cautious, but it had paid off in the game agianst Korea in Seoul, so he thought time he may can resue it. To me it seems logical and reasonable.
Ghotbi pulled Shojaie out when he didn't deliver, so it wasn't liek he had a blank check. He gambled that Shojaie will be a game changer when he came in but he couldn't .

[Doctor DOOM]

it seems it's best to drop this since we seem to be going around in circles.


lets look forward and hope the next head coach does better.
I hope the next head coach has a better philosophy, especially when entering a tournament where WINS get more points than goalless draws, and therefore, get us closer to our target.
lets not forget, the preliminary WCQ round is within a couple of months and that shd provide excellent launching pad for some very promising youngsters like afshin, ansarifard, hajsafi, haghighi, and an opportunity for some of the others to settle in with their role in the team, like hajsafi as LB.

and hopefully a time for retrospection by the likes of nekounam and shojaei who shd really make up their minds on what is important to them; club or TM.

these WCQ's also provide a great chance to introduce a couple of more youngsters and hopefuls (aged between 18-21 ) to TM as reinforcement for the next WC squad. some of the Omid players have shown great potnetial whom with a wise coach, would flourish at TM.

[yashar_fasihnia]

yashar jaan....
I like us to talk about the same thing..so we could get into common ground together...not neccessarly my view, but some where in between,perhaps....
based on your answer to my topic of " TM needs a style ".......I understand,that You believe, TM does not need a style, but just better players !!, in fact, The only point I gather from your post, is, that The way to improve,specialy for TM, is to have better talents !!
My point is......., in order to choose a style,we can see around the world, and see what others have done...for example, japan and South Korea have chosen European style,etc,etc.....
We also see, ( at least I see ), the cutting edge style,that currantly is most copied after in Europe, is what Spain does and what Cruyff suggested.....
in all cases, such style, does not prevent any country from developing thier " Individual talents " ( which you are concern about ), but in fact it may help them develop them even better.....
The point is, to have something in the football, that adds to the value of Skills of players...and not just be exclusively talent based.
All the examples you provided, where all result of playiong football that can go any way at any momemt, but the examples where not " General "...
the general...is to find out why, japan and South Korea, without having superior skilled players, have all of the sudden passed us by !

bahram jan, all im saying is playing like spain or holland doesnt guaranty win.

and i didnt say to improve TM is to get more talents. if we really want to improve TM, we need to work from basics, infrastructure, youth programs, etc.
developing a style of football also goes back to unified long term planning starting from youth.

who said japanese and koreans dont have any superior skills? their high speed is their most obvious skill. their speed both on the ball and off the ball, both mental speed and physical speed.not to forget their disciplinie, sense of team work and tactical adaptibility are all skills which is superior to ours.

as per FIFA's statistics,
iran, iraq & korea have the most raw football talents in asia.

[Doctor DOOM]

oh, btw, I forgot to ask ppl here:

what do you ppl think and how do you ppl take it that ghtbi, after getting eliminated, did not come back to Iran to at least answer the fans directly and instead flew to japan straight away?

what are your opinions on this?

[zzgloo]

bahram jan, all im saying is playing like spain or holland doesnt guaranty win.
and i didnt say to improve TM is to get more talents. if we really want to improve TM, we need to work from basics, infrastructure, youth programs, etc.
developing a style of football also goes back to unified long term planning starting from youth.
who said japanese and koreans dont have any superior skills? their high speed is their most obvious skill. their speed both on the ball and off the ball, both mental speed and physical speed.not to forget their disciplinie, sense of team work and tactical adaptibility are all skills which is superior to ours.
as per FIFA's statistics,
iran, iraq & korea have the most raw football talents in asia.

yAshar jaan..

The issue is if TM can afford to not choose a style ( South American or western European,etc,etc ) ?
My whole point is that, we have reached a point where we are staggnated ( Style wise )...
.
" Working from basics,infrastruture,youth programs,etc ".....
will only help to a " Better talents/skills " which while important, is not enough !
.
" Discipline,sense of team work and tactical adaptibilities " & " Speed ".......
Comes only from " Developing Passing style "
.................................................

Spain or japan or South Korea...do not have faster players.....they only play faster as a team.....
and the only way to play faster as a team, is to do things that players have practiced to do before the games, and players know what to do a any given time........
When the pasing game is not developed, players have to take time,to figure what to do at any given time.
.............................................

[Ali Chicago]

I watched the game again. Pressing by Koreans in our defensiev third in the first half up to around 55th minute is very strong and that is why Iran couldn't muster any build up.

This scenario changed in part duo to addition of Haydari and around 67th minute Shojaie and Koreans running out of juice it seems. From 60th minute onward we see Iran starts to pull forward and get closer to Korea's goal and creates 3-4 60-70% chances:

Haydari cross, Noori missing the one timer and then Rezaie Khalatbari can't make a shot,
Noori's cross, Aghili's header mising the goal
Noori's shot from behind the 18th
HajSafi's shot around 64th minute

Watching the game agian, now that emotions are setteled down, shows that Iran was trying to keep the game closed, they wanted to absords the pressure first and then use probably spaces behind Korea's defense (since they were pushing up). Maybe that is why Ghotbi used two speedy forwards Rezaie and Khalatbari (despite Rezie not having a great day).

I know the result wasn't satisfactory, but the plan makes sense to me. Watch the game a second time and it will be surprising to many of you that Iran didn't play as bad.

This team despite not making inroads in AFC AC 2011 cup, will be the foundation of future TM in the next 3-4 years, I think. I just hope IFF soon selects a long term experienced head coach.

[Doctor DOOM]

oh, btw, I forgot to ask ppl here:

what do you ppl think and how do you ppl take it that ghtbi, after getting eliminated, did not come back to Iran to at least answer the fans directly and instead flew to japan straight away?

what are your opinions on this?

on a relevant note:

Everything we need to know about Ghotbi, in a snapshot!!

[Martin-Reza]

oh, btw, I forgot to ask ppl here:

what do you ppl think and how do you ppl take it that ghtbi, after getting eliminated, did not come back to Iran to at least answer the fans directly and instead flew to japan straight away?

what are your opinions on this?

Absolutely logical. He's not employed by IFF anymore and just like Branko there is no need to go back to Iran just to be crucified publicly.

[Doctor DOOM]

hahahaha.
wouldnt have accepted anything but, from you

however we know what I'm talking about.
let me put it this way;
do you think he would have flown to japan directly (without coming back to iran) if he had won the asia cup too?
... or hell even if he'd reached the finals?
... or even if he'd beaten the south koreans and playing good quality football, had narrowly lost in the semis?