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    Iran - Russia

    I started to write and the first thing that I put down was to prescribe ‘vaseline’. But then decided aganst such things. I refuse to gloat over ppl who think too small as it is no achievement to prove small ppl wrong.
    Then I wanted to exclaim how our infrastructure and football facilities have improved by 1000% since the asia cup (2 weeks back)!!! …. but I thought maybe some ppl wont even understand that.
    Then tried to paint the game if ghodbi was in charge and how different it would have been. And decided it’s a waste of time.

    But I have a few comments to make;


    1- Thank God Mansourian had the balls and spine to field a balanced side (as compared to the frightened mouse-like one of 2 weeks back). I am sure there must have been other small people who must have told him to keep it tight and heavy at the back, don’t dare attack the world’s 12th ranked team with shitload of legionnaires, and basically park the bus in front of the goal because by their “small” calculations we could concede 4-5 goals or 8 goals (like ksa) even.

    Yes, there are small ppl everywhere.
    But thank God he didn’t lack the balls (bebin che bad bakht shodim ke if the coach fields a “balanced” side, we attribute it to balls!!!! It’s just sad  ) and put the right kind of players who could defend AS WELL AS ATTACK.

    And as is the nature of the game, those who dare are usually rewarded for their daring. That’s why I used to say “Unless we try, we’ll never know what could have happened”. The difference is ghtbi didn’t have the spine to even try, but Mansourian did. Irrespective of the scoreline.


    2- Let me say this showed the difference between using a person who has hardly played competitive football and using a person who was a proper player with years of experience in competitive football. (this is not a 100% law, but a large majority of cases prove it)
    The difference was underlined today also.


    3- I am happy to see the show of force by our team with the help of its offensive players (nouri, hadadifard, gholami, khalatbari, heidari, even ando) to go at the russians (despite the disparity in ranking and reputation) this way we didn’t allow too much time and space to the opponents defenders to freely and easily join their team’s attacks and compound the pressure on us (exactly what happened vs. korea by our Mr. “kaf-e dast”).

    This was a very good strategy to hold back at least 3 russians. And our defense’s work was done easier by 3 players less to deal with.

    4- The ONE thing I can attribute to ghtbi (I’m not as blind as some ppl) is the pressing game. The team pressed well, especially in midfield and I guess Russians didn’t expect to get such an irreverent (I say “fearless”) treatment from our lads. I’m happy to say our lads won quite a lot of balls in the middle of the park that “on paper” and by “fifa ranking numbers” had no business to even dream about. Good move by Mansourian again.

    5- Again our defense showed some frailties as they allowed some really dangerous chances to the Russians including a couple of 1 on 1’s (I missed the first 8 minutes of second half. So I don’t know what happened then). But by the same token, they had some positive moments where either hosseini or aghili , heidari came to save our arses. So given the strength of the opponent players I say they did acceptably.

    Although there were a couple of moments that any coach would pull his hair for: hajsafi dribbling in our 18? Aghili passing right next to 2 russians inside the 18? These are silly mistakes that must be remedied.

    6- By second half, the more the game wore on the better we played and at times, we had the Russians pinned in their half. Now, this is the difference when you play a couple of CREATIVE midfielders in the team, who can play the ball and pass around and apply pressure offensively.

    7- If you ask me I’d say if our lads were more experienced & exposed, we could have done even better. This proves we DO have the potential and resources and the talent. The problem is HOW we use these resources and talent. If we don’t have a capable person at the helm, we misuse and waste all this talent.

    Case in point is how khalatbari wasted his chance to score in the 1st half. Perhaps a chip over the keeper’s head would have done the job.

    8- Hadadifard was great for most parts of the game. He even tracked back along with his mark , deep into our 18 and with his timely tackle saved a 100% chance (prevented a 1-on-1 with rahmati). This is exactly what nekounam has been failing to do for years now. This was mentioned time and again in many game threads too. Thankfully hadadifard is more diligent and intelligent to know he SHOULD stick to his mark. His passing and feeds were also far better than the likes of players we usually used under that little man as coach.

    This game would have been a great showcase of his talents, however he did have a couple of moments where he hung on to the ball for a bit too long and was either dispossessed or was put under pressure unnecessarily. So something to work on.

    9- By minutes 70-75 our left wing was almost out of gas and maybe mahini could have come in for the tired legs of hajsafi to bring in some life to the left.


    10- Khalatbari’s second yellow was completely avoidable. The ref could have held back. Come on, it’s not everyday that these players score game winning goals against huge European teams. relax mate.

    But what a marvelous goal. and this by no means from the opponents’ mistake (another difference some ppl have to admit), but from our own CREATIVITY in the midfield. The creativity that was severely missing under that little man.


    This shd be proof enough that with a balanced team we could achieve a lot. If we don’t behave like little frightened mice and if we stop thinking small. May this be an eye opener to all those who think small that bigger things ARE indeed possible … as long as we TRY.
    Yes, sometimes we may fail. Sometimes we may not get it. But at least we can stand erect and proud. Not cowered like little midgets who are scared of everything in life.
    And sometimes we may be rewarded. And the rewards are what we shd be after.

    Stats near the end show the number of attempted shots for Russia as 30 and for Iran as 27. That’s what you’ll get from a balanced team.



    late edit: just to clarify (before some ppl misunderstanding) this does not mean I say we are better than russia or we can easily beat them or we have a great chance at beating them every time we meet or ... or anything along that line.
    this only shows we dont know what our potential is until we actually TEST it, until we try.
    by sitting in a corner of the room, cowering out of fear we'll never know what we are capable of. and shd we lose to the likes of russia ... well, lets at least lose like proud men ... not like scared little mice


    ----------
    Question for majid jan: did you attend the game? And if yes, were you wearing a red short sleeves T-shirt? I thought I saw someone like you in the crowd. Was that you?

    #2
    Well I guess some people don't realize when you play a game with the plan "not to lose" the best thing you can achieve is, well your own goal: not losing.

    This means that you "can't win"!!! Well you can, but that would only be an exception and freak accidents happen.

    Another thing that people have to realize is that a defensive game plan (like the old Italy's) is totally different than the "not losing the game" attitude. They actually want to win the game but they approach that goal differently.

    Comment


      #3
      A few points to comment on.

      1- Mansourian's courage! Hmmmm, Doc , this is the same Mansourian of couple of weeks ago who . as you put it , parked a bus in front of his goal ( I always find this comment funny ). OK , you can say that he was the assistant , but in my book , he was as culpable as the coach. The point is , he afforded to be courageous as he had nothing to lose. He was a one-off temporary coach , and even if I was in his place , I would have done the same......BUT Kudos to him.

      2- Khalatbary's red card: Funnily enough , I was thinking the same about the referee cooling it until I remembered that there is no separate rules of football for friendly games , hence players still get cautioned and sent off.

      3- I am not sure about this Saeedlo comments regarding facilities , but one thing I am pretty sure of is that modern state-of-the-art facilities , does not guarantee you success in football , the efforts of your players does.

      4- Technically speaking, Iranian players can be the be as good as the best in the world and today we have seen that they can perform and win against respectable opposition even under the so-called repressive system. Why can't they maintain a momentum or at least play to the same standard ? ..Honestly , I can't understand what is the driver .







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      Comment


        #4
        ^
        1- the issue of coach vs. assistant coach is a very interesting one and I'd like to know if you REALLY mean what you said about the role & extent of responsibility of an assistant coach ... or are you joking here?

        becoz if you ARE serious then I'd love to see where you saw me say "mansourian" parked the bus .... . not to mention what in your opinion IS within an assistant coach's purview.
        but if you're merely joking ... then .... ok.


        3- maybe I wasnt very clear on the saeedlou comment!!!!

        Comment


          #5
          Just one thing, Hadadifar was awesome. He was the player we were looking for.

          Russia was weak, so weak. I don't remember we could get these many balls back from any team's back-yard, let alone Russia.

          I still don't believe M.Nouri worth a spot in starting 11, however he had the assist.

          Cheers,

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Hajagha View Post
            Just one thing, Hadadifar was awesome. He was the player we were looking for.
            Russia was weak, so weak. I don't remember we could get these many balls back from any team's back-yard, let alone Russia.
            I still don't believe M.Nouri worth a spot in starting 11, however he had the assist.
            Cheers,
            i agree hadadifar was awesome today
            IRI = FAILED

            Comment


              #7
              Mansourian was Professor Ghotbi's assistant... there was only one difference, Mansourian had two balls the size of watermelons compared to that chicken sh!t self proclaimed coach, a.k.a Ghotbi.

              As you saw today, we play much more fluent when dont jam pack everyone in defense. Damn, we wasted two years of our football to that dbag... just makes me furious!

              Comment


                #8
                Payman Khan;

                This was the two week ago team except Nekoo and shojaie didn't come. I wish both of these guys came and see if Mansoorian would have crossed them off??!!!

                Arash Afshin had a red. The difference was this was a friendly and the game against the Korea was a life and death game.

                I watched Korea Turkey in Turkey today after our game. Korea played without Kim Jay seoug and still in Turkey played a very nice game against Turkey.

                In short it is the quality of the team. Did you see the same Ghotbi (gutless, spinless as you put it) how dominated UAE? Same team wasn't so brilliant against N. Korea not to mention S. Korea?

                Anyways congrats on Iran win and just wanted to make sure to keep you in check (since you started your post with Vaseline comment).
                "When I see the good in you, you get motivated, feel good about yourself and that creates synergy. It creates an environment where everybody can work better together. I think in the Iranian culture it becomes very ordinary to always see the bad in each other."
                Afshin Ghotbi ( Former TM Head Coach)



                Nasser Hejazi was the Takhti of our football.
                Mohammad Panjali (Former PP and TM Captain)
                sigpic

                Comment


                  #9
                  ^
                  Ali jan,
                  there’s a saying that goes like if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Or in our iran we say if you cant take a hit, don’t dish it out to others (or in colloquial terms, janbeh-ash ro dashtan) . I don’t know why we think it is ok to compare ppl with basijis and pasdars and wheel-less motorcycles and … but when the truth comes out, we suddenly become aloof and stand off-ish (or some use the "koocheh ali-chap" method and avoid remarking on all their previous "comments/claims")!!!!
                  Just doesn’t sit right with me. I wouldnt dish it out if I couldn’t take it. I took all those hits and snide remarks before the game from all of you and some even from little kids in the general forum becoz I follow this (above) rule.


                  Secondly, on the team from 2 weeks back comparison, I must say this is what I expect from kids from the general forum. Not from F+ members, especially you who has a record of coaching. Those kids may not see any difference and may merely look at the 23 man roster (which is more or less the same) to prove some point. But I expected more from someone who (shd) know the difference between inclusion or exclusion of even a single player, the style of certain players, the tactics and strategy of a line up, … etc etc etc.

                  However, if you’re saying all that only to insist on the pre-game attitude just becoz you don’t like to admit to many differences that were there, so be it. I am not here looking for validation of reality from anyone. We deal with these things inside our heads too, irrespective of whether we admit to them in front of ppl or not.


                  As for the inclusion/exclusion of nekounam and shojaei, again I must say I expected more from you. You, as a coach shd know if you want a 3 man defensive midfield with high defensive turn-out, you still could have put guys like ando + pejman nouri + nosrati or bengar or aghili or any other defender who could double as a def-mid also. Certainly not mohamad nori + hadadifard.
                  You, of all ppl, shd know when a coach uses the latter two, the whole strategy and tactic of team is changed from the ultra-defensive of asia cup.

                  And if that wasn’t enough a clue, then placing the attack-minded haidari (instead of defensively reliable nosrati, to bolster the defense) shd have been the next marker to show how different the 2 teams & strategies were.

                  And finally, by bringing afshin not being available for the korea game I know you are clutching at straws only. We both know perfectly well that ghtbi would NEVER have used afshin for the korea game, even if he was available. Even if he had 5 substitutes to make instead of 3. So plz don’t bother with this line of discussion as it is quite transparent.

                  So while I can understand some general forum guy may want to insist and persist with their pre-game stance, I must say I expected more from F+ members.

                  I also wouldn’t really persist with comparing iran with the likes of uae to drive my point home and make my case, coz then it brings the issue of standards and insistence on mediocrity and lowered ceilings.


                  This game showed us WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN, if that little man had a minuscule spine (or knew how to read the opponent’s team or knew their weaknesses or knew OUR strengths or …) would have done pretty much the same thing mansourian did. The fact that mansourian used the SAME roster and showed how differently we could have performed shd have been indication for not defending ghtbi at whatever cost.
                  Ghtbi & mansourian had the same ingredients. One turned out a burnt ommlette, the other, a lovely delicious dish. With the very same ingredients.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    if ghotbi had afshin missing, mansourian had ansarifard missing.

                    if mansourian wanted to follow ghotbi's footstep, he would have played ghotbis favorite - pejman nouri rather than hadadifar and mohd nouri.

                    if mansourian wanted to copy ghotbi, he would have played nosrati as RB, only to realize after 45 minutes that his team cant move past the half line and introduce heydari and burn a subsistution and waste the first 45 minutes of the game doing nothing but sit in his own half.

                    but then again, who knows, maybe mansourian learnt a lesson after ghotbi's failure with korea and went for an alternative plan. if it wasnt for ghotbi's failure, maybe mansourian would still be following ghotbi's footsteps..
                    Originally posted by siavasharian
                    ESTEGHLAL:

                    بهترین خط دفاع.بهترین خط حمله.ثبت رکورد بیشترین گل زده.پر امتیاز ترین تیم ادوار لیگ برتر با ۴۰۹ امتیاز.پر افتخار ترین مربی لیگ برتر با دو قهرمانی
                    بهترین گلزن لیگ: آرش برهانی [استقلال] با ۲۱ گل زدهبهترین خط حمله: استقلال تهران با ۷۰ گل زده

                    Comment


                      #11
                      ^ DD jan don't push it! cause pretty soon they start questioning your age, your black and white TV, and your high standards for football + posts.......(IT'S A JOKE, DON'T GET OFFENDED)

                      And thank you Yashar for saving me some typing!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post
                        ^
                        Ali jan,
                        there’s a saying that goes like if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Or in our iran we say if you cant take a hit, don’t dish it out to others (or in colloquial terms, janbeh-ash ro dashtan) . I don’t know why we think it is ok to compare ppl with basijis and pasdars and wheel-less motorcycles and … but when the truth comes out, we suddenly become aloof and stand off-ish (or some use the "koocheh ali-chap" method and avoid remarking on all their previous "comments/claims")!!!!
                        Just doesn’t sit right with me. I wouldnt dish it out if I couldn’t take it. I took all those hits and snide remarks before the game from all of you and some even from little kids in the general forum becoz I follow this (above) rule.


                        Secondly, on the team from 2 weeks back comparison, I must say this is what I expect from kids from the general forum. Not from F+ members, especially you who has a record of coaching. Those kids may not see any difference and may merely look at the 23 man roster (which is more or less the same) to prove some point. But I expected more from someone who (shd) know the difference between inclusion or exclusion of even a single player, the style of certain players, the tactics and strategy of a line up, … etc etc etc.

                        However, if you’re saying all that only to insist on the pre-game attitude just becoz you don’t like to admit to many differences that were there, so be it. I am not here looking for validation of reality from anyone. We deal with these things inside our heads too, irrespective of whether we admit to them in front of ppl or not.


                        As for the inclusion/exclusion of nekounam and shojaei, again I must say I expected more from you. You, as a coach shd know if you want a 3 man defensive midfield with high defensive turn-out, you still could have put guys like ando + pejman nouri + nosrati or bengar or aghili or any other defender who could double as a def-mid also. Certainly not mohamad nori + hadadifard.
                        You, of all ppl, shd know when a coach uses the latter two, the whole strategy and tactic of team is changed from the ultra-defensive of asia cup.

                        And if that wasn’t enough a clue, then placing the attack-minded haidari (instead of defensively reliable nosrati, to bolster the defense) shd have been the next marker to show how different the 2 teams & strategies were.

                        And finally, by bringing afshin not being available for the korea game I know you are clutching at straws only. We both know perfectly well that ghtbi would NEVER have used afshin for the korea game, even if he was available. Even if he had 5 substitutes to make instead of 3. So plz don’t bother with this line of discussion as it is quite transparent.

                        So while I can understand some general forum guy may want to insist and persist with their pre-game stance, I must say I expected more from F+ members.

                        I also wouldn’t really persist with comparing iran with the likes of uae to drive my point home and make my case, coz then it brings the issue of standards and insistence on mediocrity and lowered ceilings.


                        This game showed us WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN, if that little man had a minuscule spine (or knew how to read the opponent’s team or knew their weaknesses or knew OUR strengths or …) would have done pretty much the same thing mansourian did. The fact that mansourian used the SAME roster and showed how differently we could have performed shd have been indication for not defending ghtbi at whatever cost.
                        Ghtbi & mansourian had the same ingredients. One turned out a burnt ommlette, the other, a lovely delicious dish. With the very same ingredients.
                        I didn't dish out anything Payman Khan. You talked of Vaseline, yek soozan be khoodet bezan yek javaldooze be hamsayeh amoo. If I said your approach was like Basiji's it was a comparison to make a point without snarl. I think your approach is like them full of enthusiasm and good will and pure heart but not based in reality.

                        I find it amazing that you are getting credit for the way the team played. This is the same team that Ghotbi has made and selected. So it is Ghotbi's fault now?



                        I am not trying to convert you and please return the favor. It is amazing how one late goal in 90th minute all of a sudden makes heroic events in our football ,against a Russian team which is
                        1-doing mediocre at best in UEFA qualification
                        2-their league hasn't started
                        3-Last time they played together was several months ago, while our team had a long camp, long tournament, etc.
                        4- Russians pretty much were depleted at the end of the second half.

                        Even if this was heroic this is in part result of Ghotbi's effort. So now Ghotbi or for that matter many coaches (who are spineless in your words) get it both ways. If the team plays bad it is their fault, If the team does well, it is again another indication that coach was spineless!!!!!!

                        Look at Khalatbari, how stupid it was that he got a red card!!!! This is the sophestication and maturity of one of our top players. Nobody on PFDC talked about it. It ain't a big deal, it was 91st minute and it was a friendly game but do you see how unprofessional and unfocus a player at the TM level has to be to take off his jersey to score in a friggin friendly game and get a red card!!!!! This is the level or our football, I never see you talk about these, all I see is label the coach spineless, gutless, etc. (which they maybe) but is it the whole story?!!!!!



                        One last time, Ghotbi ain't my Pesar Khaleh and it isn't about him, it is about this vision among us who isn't based on reality and is purely based on wish, dream, hopes.


                        Anyways, we see things totally differently obviously and we have been at this for several months without any conclusions, so let's agree to disagree Payman Jaan.
                        Last edited by Ali Chicago; 02-10-2011, 05:55 PM.
                        "When I see the good in you, you get motivated, feel good about yourself and that creates synergy. It creates an environment where everybody can work better together. I think in the Iranian culture it becomes very ordinary to always see the bad in each other."
                        Afshin Ghotbi ( Former TM Head Coach)



                        Nasser Hejazi was the Takhti of our football.
                        Mohammad Panjali (Former PP and TM Captain)
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by yashar_fasihnia View Post
                          if ghotbi had afshin missing, mansourian had ansarifard missing.
                          if mansourian wanted to follow ghotbi's footstep, he would have played ghotbis favorite - pejman nouri rather than hadadifar and mohd nouri.
                          if mansourian wanted to copy ghotbi, he would have played nosrati as RB, only to realize after 45 minutes that his team cant move past the half line and introduce heydari and burn a subsistution and waste the first 45 minutes of the game doing nothing but sit in his own half.
                          but then again, who knows, maybe mansourian learnt a lesson after ghotbi's failure with korea and went for an alternative plan. if it wasnt for ghotbi's failure, maybe mansourian would still be following ghotbi's footsteps..

                          Logical post. I agree whole heartedly that Afshin Ghotbi's line up against Korea was ultra defensive, I don't defend that Ghotbi's decision. You nicely pointed out maybe Mansoorian learned a lesson from that. But at the end this was just a friendly against a good team (which isn't doing at his top like last Euro).

                          An Era came to end in our football. None of the key players of 2006 team are around anymore. New Era is coming one way or another (new players new coach), I am looking forward to it with the new generation of our footballer.
                          "When I see the good in you, you get motivated, feel good about yourself and that creates synergy. It creates an environment where everybody can work better together. I think in the Iranian culture it becomes very ordinary to always see the bad in each other."
                          Afshin Ghotbi ( Former TM Head Coach)



                          Nasser Hejazi was the Takhti of our football.
                          Mohammad Panjali (Former PP and TM Captain)
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Come on agha Peyman. It was just one "kishmish", you feel it like all "summer" again.

                            First, I didn't see any "10 forwards" in the line up, nor Rahmati dribbiling the opponent in their 18 yards. Was it that you called spin this spin that, gutsy goatsy?

                            For god sake, it was the same team, just different opponent.

                            What I saw different from last game:

                            -Hadadifar, I don't know why those stupid coaches (including stupid Ghotbi) haven't used him. Aside Rahmati, he is currently the best player in Iran, in his own position. Again, I was not in the camp, to see who is who and how they do.

                            - The team started to defend up and press higher. Like always except Korea's game.

                            - M. Nouri, you don't wanna tell me he was good, do you? He was just one handicap player.

                            That's it that's all. Now "piadeh sho ba ham berim", you act like you won the World Cup jigar. The same team beat the same Korea with the same tactic just a few months ago.

                            Now, we have another problem, before we had 3 excellent defensive players, now we have 4 of them. What we wanna do with them?

                            Good I am not the coach.

                            Cheers,

                            Comment


                              #15
                              ^I agree with you on M Nouri. I don't think he's starting material. He almost gave away a goal as well, passing the ball back to Aghili who was under enormous presure already. However Haddadifar should've started or at least sub in for Nekou in the Korea game. He really isn't helping Iran for some matches now.
                              Anyways the point is, you could start the same 11 players and still have an other tactic. Qotbi could have gave more freedom to Ando and Nouri to go up front, but it now seems he did not. I used to like the midfield with ando and nouri, because they also can provide the strikers with good passes(ando proved that again in the Russia game), have good long range shots and on top of that they are physically very very fit. Ad a fit Khalatbari and Rezaei and you would have enough attacking power upfront to create some serius danger.
                              However it's seems that not only Ando, Nouri and Nekou were told to hold back, but also our wingers had too many defending duties. Ofcourse that way we achieved to paralyze Korea's attack, but I think we were able to do more than that. Even with the same 11 starting players.
                              In the Russia game, my guess is that players were given more freedom to go up front and especially the wingers weren't told to do all kind of defending duties. It was clearly obvious if you took a look at Khalatbari. Now I know that not all the people agree that he did a good job, but I surely hope that everybody agrees that he was doing better than the AC games.
                              I did like the system Qotbi was using and I do believe that this team has learned a lot from him, but when it mattered he chocked, so did our players..., so maybe it's an Iranian thing.
                              I honestly think that if Qotbi did have more courage, we, with the same starting players, would've done a lot better.
                              And so what if we might have conceded a goal, we lost anyways so....

                              Comment

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