ACL brings up painful memories of AC2011!

[Doctor DOOM]

the very first day of ACL games and we are immediately (and sadly) brought back to the days of asia cup .... and particularly, the last game.

we had two Irani teams playing in the first day, sepahan away from home playing in the lion's den, against alhilal, one of the most decorated asian clubs and we had ss, playing at home, against a very mediocre qatari team.

on paper, while ss wouldnt and shdnt be having such a difficult time, sepahan was in for a lot of trouble and pressure and anyone would be happy with a single point away from ksa.

but what turned out was a total contrast and a great reminder of how fortunes change when the wrong strategy is chosen for a game. One game showed great offensive strategy and kep on hitting at alhilal's door with wave after wave of attacks that could have fooled someone thinking the game was bring played in isfahan. and they deservedly got their just rewards for their attacking game (even if tinged with a bit of luck. but luck is increased only if you try that much harder).
what was admirable was they didnt step back to defend their measly lead. they continued to attack.
and had it not been for a momentary attack of idiocy and brain-freeze on the part of bengar, that win would have been even greater and sweeter.

on the other hand, we had ss, with all its stars ... playing at home to a mediocre (to weak) qatari team , got a goal (a lucky one, just like sepahan's), but the coach lost his nerves and tried to defend the narrow lead and started the usual deimi iranian football with emphasis on defense!

and by now any retard will agree if iranian teams start to defend and want to base their team tactics on defense, 95 out of 100 will fail and will concede. and concede they did at the end. which was their "reward" (or punishment) for choosing not to play offensive football AT HOME!!!!




the two scenarios above remind me of how a limited, small minded analyst ruined our team's chances at asia cup, opting for gutless football and we paid for his lack of spine, AND what could have been and shd have been.

[Paradigm]

Doc I think you mean AC 2011 (the title). Well Mazloomi has no experience coaching in the ACL. For GN this is the third time so he has started to find the hoops; that's why we need coaches with solid experience. Experience was lacking for instance when they put Daie in charge of TM. In any event I agree with you, and I believe keeping criticism on Mazloomi will force him to use all of his team's potentials and play with a PURPOSE. He cannot afford to drop points like this at home. Also as for Perspolis, I wonder if you have noticed, but the Arab teams gun for them because of their very Persian name. Hopefully the boys can man up and pull at least a point away in KSA today. (The match reports suggest they are under lot's of pressure.)

[Ali Chicago]

Mazloomi used offensive players (3 forward) Borhani, Sayed Salehi, Majidi in the forward line. So he didn't want to play defensively. But we saw what was the results? So despite what Doc says, it wasn't Mazloomi's desire to play defensively (in this case to play with three forwards). It was the game flow that imposed itself on SS.


What is the problem in my view?
Right now it seems there is a general shortage of good right and left back and right left mid fielders in Iran. That probably explains why Hajsafi was moved to LB in both TM and Sepahan. HajSafi and Khosro Haydari being an exception. SS suffers from the main problem. This problem was much more obvious in PP Alitehad game today. This is where PP got hurt today. This problem gets magnified especially when the team is attacking and our team looses the ball and we have to a make an offensive to defensive transition, again I use PP's example today. That probably explains, why SS plays with both Ashoubi and Rahmati or Desouze (to plug in these holes during the offensive to defensive transition). Ghotbi probably saw the same thing to play with more defensive minded mid fielders.

Rapid pace of footballing Growth and investment by other Asian countries
Reality is this crappy Alsad team had two players Leandro and Kaita that together cost 15 million Euros. They have key players, Foosati at helm, on the other hand we have a SS that has horrible defense.


Lack of new generation of superstars
I couldn't believe in the 87th minute Omranzadeh get dribbled in the 6 yard box and then stops and watches the outcome of the dribbling which led to Alsad's goal. Even an Armature youth players would chase when he gets beaten.

Sorry for this getting too long, point is our football always was based on super stars, there has been a lack of superstars in our football. So what we are witnessing is a lack of crop of talented players combined with rapid rate of growth of other Asian nations. While lack of experience and knowledge of our head coaches for sure is an Achilles heal of our football, but over simplifying everything to this coach is attack minded that coach is defensive minded is just that "AN OVERSIMPLIFICATION". Again, I would like to emphasize, Mazloomi played with three forwards, I can't see how anyone can say he was playing with a defensive mentality.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ maybe if we stop looking at paper (names of players) and see how the game changed, especially in second half, we'd get the drift of the thread.

merely having 3 attacking players in the line up does not necessarily mean an attacking strategy. it is what they do and what the rest of the team does that shows the nature of the strategy to us. in second half it was crystal clear that mazloomi wanted to cling onto the narrow lead and his subs and most probably his orders during the halftime supported this.

we shdnt put too much in stock of what we see on paper. the way the game was played in 2nd half tells a different story.

***********

while I agree we dont have too many great flank players, but PP especially suffers from this becoz I really dont think aliasgar was good enough for the spot anyway.
yes, domestically he has shown to be versatile and do acceptably in various posts. but that does not make him a "reliable" player for ANY of those posts (more like a case of "jack of all trades & master of none" ). and this was exposed in how easily and countless number of times they passed him and penetrated our defense.

but he isnt the only one to bear the blame. the ENTIRE defensive line up of pp was like a bunch of middle school kids. when they allowed 6-7 one on ones with their keeper and many other occasions when ahmadi was called to save the goal, we cant just say the flank players were bad. the ENTIRE defense & def-mids of the team were horrible.

frankly, I think this pp wont get anywhere. simply becoz despite having a lot of "names" (that says a lot, ON PAPER), on the football pitch, they are at best an average team. no matter how they wanted to play and press the arabs, every time the ball got near their defense, the defenders let the team down!

[Hajagha]

DD joon,

1, Why do you think the other team has no coach?

2, Why do you think your team coach is an idiot?

3, Why do you think that you have all the components in your team and can do whatever tactic you want?

4, Why do you think your players in the field do exactly what you order?

5, AND THE MOST SHOCKING ONE: "maybe if we stop looking at paper (names of players) and see how the game..." Really? Seriously? I wonder if the poor guy had put 3 defensive players, then did you stop looking at names?

6, Don’t you think the poor coach who is actually paid to coach a team, wants to win? Do you really think the guy is an idiot and can’t see what you see thousands miles away behind a monitor? Come on man, give them a break, for once try to understand what they did, why they did and then whether they were successful on that or not.

Jigar, Stop coaching Barca, piadeh shoo ba ham berim. hava khobeh, hal mideh.... as a matter of fact it's -20 sh!!t here.

Please answer the following questions BRIEFLY or I stop reading them:

Scenario: You are 1-0 up and it's min 75 and beyond, do you order your team:

1, Attack from the flank by using over lap by your right and left D?

2, Your DMs constantly goes to the opponent box to use the crosses?

3, Your Center Ds go for the header in corners?

4, Ask your 3 forwards to stay in the opponent field all the time?

5, Ask your keeper to have a long goal kicks?

6, Ask your central Ds stay in your field no matter what?

7, You have your sub's, do you change forward to mid? Mid to forward? mid to mid? D to D? D to forward? Forward to D? Saying that, you don't have a super sub.

....


After all coaching is not that easy if you ask me.

Cheers,

[St_Mark]

the very first day of ACL games and we are immediately (and sadly) brought back to the days of asia cup .... and particularly, the last game.
we had two Irani teams playing in the first day, sepahan away from home playing in the lion's den, against alhilal, one of the most decorated asian clubs and we had ss, playing at home, against a very mediocre qatari team.
on paper, while ss wouldnt and shdnt be having such a difficult time, sepahan was in for a lot of trouble and pressure and anyone would be happy with a single point away from ksa.
but what turned out was a total contrast and a great reminder of how fortunes change when the wrong strategy is chosen for a game. One game showed great offensive strategy and kep on hitting at alhilal's door with wave after wave of attacks that could have fooled someone thinking the game was bring played in isfahan. and they deservedly got their just rewards for their attacking game (even if tinged with a bit of luck. but luck is increased only if you try that much harder).
what was admirable was they didnt step back to defend their measly lead. they continued to attack.
and had it not been for a momentary attack of idiocy and brain-freeze on the part of bengar, that win would have been even greater and sweeter.
on the other hand, we had ss, with all its stars ... playing at home to a mediocre (to weak) qatari team , got a goal (a lucky one, just like sepahan's), but the coach lost his nerves and tried to defend the narrow lead and started the usual deimi iranian football with emphasis on defense!
and by now any retard will agree if iranian teams start to defend and want to base their team tactics on defense, 95 out of 100 will fail and will concede. and concede they did at the end. which was their "reward" (or punishment) for choosing not to play offensive football AT HOME!!!!
the two scenarios above remind me of how a limited, small minded analyst ruined our team's chances at asia cup, opting for gutless football and we paid for his lack of spine, AND what could have been and shd have been.

At this level, teams with sound structure and stable defense will survive and others don't belong.
So far Iranian representative performance has been consistent with their GD records in IPL.
Sepahan & Zobahan with corresponding +19 & +18 has done so far better than Esteghlal & Perspolis with +10 & +3
Seapahan & zobahan have solid defense line as a result of many NT players with international experience while Perspolis defense line is not good even with IPL standard.
Talking about defense line one has to include DM as par of first layer defense structure and in that score Perspolis was even worse. With shaky defense structure offensive game plan is doomed .
Ali Daei during IPL games given his knowledge of opponents and players is capable of overcoming defensive shortcomings but facing less known and stronger opponents with capable coaches is a different reality for Daei.
So far results are consistent with their relative defensive strength however playing bad is a different story. Perspolis and Esteghlal played bad and they could have done much better even with Daei & Mazloomi as a coach.
Rahmati===Hajsafi, Bengar, Aghilee, Hosseini
Gordan===Mahini, Ahmadi, Talebi, Hosseini
Taleblu===Amirabadi, Sadeghi, Omranzadeh, Montazeri
Ahmadi===Shakuri, Heidari, Normohammadi, Aliaskari

[Paradigm]

Somebody here has to address Daie's pitfalls in coaching. His was the only team to walk out losers on match day 1. I reckon Perspolis is not in a good shape and needs a shake up or they will die in the group stages. Daie does not have what it takes as a coach when it comes to the international level.

[Doctor DOOM]

Faramarz jan, del o gholveh tala,

I didn’t say this or any coach “wants” to lose. I said their “method” is different. Some have the right one, some don’t.

I didn’t say mazloomi “wanted to lose”. In fact I think according to him, the 1-0 was enough and he must have thought perhaps his team can protect that lead for another 40-45 minutes. For all we know the reason for this retraction & the fear associated with it was that he desperately wanted to win.

So I don’t question the drive or intent. I question the method.

****************

Secondly, I stand by what I say. I don’t look at the paper, even in the case where there are 3 def mids. If I say the team played a gutless game, it is not becoz on the roll-call I see 2 def-mids. It is becoz those 3 def-mids SHOWED THEY WERE NOT CAPABLE OF CREATING ANY CONSISTENT OFFENSE WHICH IS NEEDED FOR A WIN.

Hell, tomorrow, if they use mirzapour as midfielder, and he somehow manages to feed the offensive players and create chances for attacks, I wouldn’t say why a GK was played. I’ll say mirza played well as creative mid. So I hope this answers your doubt.

**************

Third, if my team is ahead by 1-0 at min 75, I would not retreat and surrender spaces to the opponent (flanks or middle or both … depending on the opponents’ nature and style). I would still pack the middle of the park, but instead of closing in on our 18, I’d want ball possession, short passes WHILE STILL LOOKING FOR THE INSURANCE GOAL, using quick players (either on the flank or middle … depending on weaknesses of the opponent) to attack their defense, and if they lose the ball, defend from up the field (not rush back behind the halfway line).

This not only ensures our presence up the field and leaves the door for another goal open, it also helps in keeping the opponent defenders at bay so they wouldn’t join in the team’s attacks (therefore relieving the pressure from our defenders).

this also puts some players in the middle or up the field, so even if a defender gets desperate and hoofs the ball, at least there are a couple of players up the field to vie for the ball, or even if they dont get the ball, press the opponent who receives it. this way, you dont allow the opponent to playmake leisurely & freely and at his own pace .... not to mention gobble up more seconds.

Assuming your Q is there haven’t been any subs till this period, then my first two subs would not be so much based on the mid or def or forward or … it would be more on what’s needed or what’s lagging in the team. But in short, I will still look to get that insurance second goal.



many of the above points are exactly what we didnt see against skorea. skorean defenders had ample time and space to do their own playmaking, attack our team from middle and flanks and generally increase the pressure on our team.
also by retreating our players into our half and so close to our box, we surrendered acres of space to the koreans who freely applied their attack tactics, and also in case our defense deflected and hoofed the ball away, they easily collected the ball and under hardly any pressure from our players and sent the ball right back into and around our box.
this kept on increasing the pressure on us exponentially. the more they pressurized us, the more mistake prone we became, the more balls we lost and the more they collected and pressed us again .... and this kept up building and building!

[Ali Chicago]

.....
but what turned out was a total contrast and a great reminder of how fortunes change when the wrong strategy is chosen for a game. One game showed great offensive strategy and kep on hitting at alhilal's door with wave after wave of attacks that could have fooled someone thinking the game was bring played in isfahan. and they deservedly got their just rewards for their attacking game (even if tinged with a bit of luck. but luck is increased only if you try that much harder).
what was admirable was they didnt step back to defend their measly lead. they continued to attack.
.

Paymon Jaan, I bolded and underlined part of your first post. You said wrong strategy.......


MY arguments was if Mazloomi wanted to play defensively he wouldn't have played with three forwards. Unless you say Mazloomi is crazy. A coach has a plan and sets his team up in a certain way, when players go and can't perform or aren't able to perform becasue they weren't prepared for it, is a different story. But Mazloomi's intent based on the players starting was clear. Even after the goal, he didnt' pull out a forward and bring a DM, did he?

SS lost the battle in the midfield. 3 midfielders of SS couldn't do what they were supposed to do, only Mobali did well. SS defense is slow and porous, Montazeri get's exposed when he joins the attack. Both Omranzadeh and Sadeghi are extermely slow even for the IPL Level. Worst than that, for a strange reason, Alsan players hit all of the headers in the SS 6 yard box. That is unforgivable, considering the height and size of Omranzadeh and Sadeghi. This is where SS performed poor not "gutless coach defensive strategy". Ultimately bucks stop at Mazloomi and I am not satsified with him, but my point is coaches aren't puppet masters, they aren't running the players in the field as marionetts and everything can't be "OVER SIMPLIFI"ED" to coach's "gutless and spineless" approach to the game.

^ maybe if we stop looking at paper (names of players) and see how the game changed, especially in second half, we'd get the drift of the thread.

merely having 3 attacking players in the line up does not necessarily mean an attacking strategy. it is what they do and what the rest of the team does that shows the nature of the strategy to us. in second half it was crystal clear that mazloomi wanted to cling onto the narrow lead and his subs and most probably his orders during the halftime supported this.

we shdnt put too much in stock of what we see on paper. the way the game was played in 2nd half thaells a different story.
.....!

Payman jaan;

Mazloomi, Daie, Ghotbi, Branko, all coaches spend time with these palyers 4-5 hours a day. You and I observe them during the game. What makes you think you and I or any fans for that matter can be a better judge? What exactly do u mean by paper. How do you know how Borhani was during the practices?

IMHO opinion I think you are missing a big point. We are dealing with Human beings here. You look at a player during the practices he is great, you send him to the pitch, he chokes. What should you do support him to regain his cofidence or give him the hook? He has to make these decisions real-time. Coach has no direct control over the player during the game, but still has to find ways to change the game dynamic. We are talking lot of psychology, but not being a push over or a shirnk.....

I can write volumes but in the interest of berevity I stop here. To reiterate my point, all I am saying is based on Mazloomi playing with 3 forwards, it is an idication that he didnt' want to play a defensive game. SS playing poor is still his fault, but at least he didn't set his team (based on players he chose) for a defensive strategy (unless u say Mazloomi is crazy and puts three forwards in to play defensive). Had he wanted to play defensivly, he would have pulled on of the forwards adn play Kianoosh Rahmati for example. Then you had a point.

[Hajagha]

Faramarz jan, del o gholveh tala,

I didn’t say this or any coach “wants” to lose. I said their “method” is different. Some have the right one, some don’t.

I didn’t say mazloomi “wanted to lose”. In fact I think according to him, the 1-0 was enough and he must have thought perhaps his team can protect that lead for another 40-45 minutes. For all we know the reason for this retraction & the fear associated with it was that he desperately wanted to win.

So I don’t question the drive or intent. I question the method.

****************

Secondly, I stand by what I say. I don’t look at the paper, even in the case where there are 3 def mids. If I say the team played a gutless game, it is not becoz on the roll-call I see 2 def-mids. It is becoz those 3 def-mids SHOWED THEY WERE NOT CAPABLE OF CREATING ANY CONSISTENT OFFENSE WHICH IS NEEDED FOR A WIN.

Hell, tomorrow, if they use mirzapour as midfielder, and he somehow manages to feed the offensive players and create chances for attacks, I wouldn’t say why a GK was played. I’ll say mirza played well as creative mid. So I hope this answers your doubt.

**************

Third, if my team is ahead by 1-0 at min 75, I would not retreat and surrender spaces to the opponent (flanks or middle or both … depending on the opponents’ nature and style). I would still pack the middle of the park, but instead of closing in on our 18, I’d want ball possession, short passes WHILE STILL LOOKING FOR THE INSURANCE GOAL, using quick players (either on the flank or middle … depending on weaknesses of the opponent) to attack their defense, and if they lose the ball, defend from up the field (not rush back behind the halfway line).

This not only ensures our presence up the field and leaves the door for another goal open, it also helps in keeping the opponent defenders at bay so they wouldn’t join in the team’s attacks (therefore relieving the pressure from our defenders).

this also puts some players in the middle or up the field, so even if a defender gets desperate and hoofs the ball, at least there are a couple of players up the field to vie for the ball, or even if they dont get the ball, press the opponent who receives it. this way, you dont allow the opponent to playmake leisurely & freely and at his own pace .... not to mention gobble up more seconds.

Assuming your Q is there haven’t been any subs till this period, then my first two subs would not be so much based on the mid or def or forward or … it would be more on what’s needed or what’s lagging in the team. But in short, I will still look to get that insurance second goal.



many of the above points are exactly what we didnt see against skorea. skorean defenders had ample time and space to do their own playmaking, attack our team from middle and flanks and generally increase the pressure on our team.
also by retreating our players into our half and so close to our box, we surrendered acres of space to the koreans who freely applied their attack tactics, and also in case our defense deflected and hoofed the ball away, they easily collected the ball and under hardly any pressure from our players and sent the ball right back into and around our box.
this kept on increasing the pressure on us exponentially. the more they pressurized us, the more mistake prone we became, the more balls we lost and the more they collected and pressed us again .... and this kept up building and building!

The bolded line summed it up. My way or highway.

Jigar, what you say is no brainer. But, world is not as rosy as you draw it. In 75+, every time you ask your flank or DMs go up, there is a huge possibility that they have no energy to come back. In 75+, players are tired and the chance they make mistakes are higher. In 75+, you should bring a team from Mars to press, the team I know on earth, they are pretty dead and can’t press the way you want.

Every body loves the insurance goal. But, in reality, the other team put the pressure, your player are forced to save a few balls in your penalty box, they get tired, they kick the ball up, the ball goes back all over again. This is called football, we have seen for years in almost all teams. It's called "shortage", "inability", "lack"... but it's not called "stupidity".

We don't need to invent the wheel again.

Cheers,

[Hajagha]

I forgot to congratulate Daei and his team for his gutty gootty spiney spooney football. He managed to have 3 goals and 3 posts in his attacking strategy football.

I encourage every one to watch the goals specially the first one where the offside line was almost on the half line. I guess we were attacking, weren't we?

gutless football ... lack of spine

Cheers,

[Hajagha]

Proof of my claim:

barca vs Valencia, March 2, 2011,

1-0 for Barca,

Barca Subs: Keita for Iniestia (DM for AM)

Maxwell for Mascherano (D for DM).

So, the best team in the world was 1-0 up and made it safe. No insurance goal, no gutty gooty spiney spooney.

Cheers,

[Paradigm]

Daie should be coaching in the Azadeghan, IPL is too much for him. Perspolis deserves better.... they are not gonna get anywhere like this in the ACL. They also should stop constantly buying out other teams' stars and instead again concentrate on their own youth system, similar to the good old days. Btw. what's up with Haghighi, I heard he has got a ban.

[Ali Chicago]

Daie should be coaching in the Azadeghan, IPL is too much for him. Perspolis deserves better.... they are not gonna get anywhere like this in the ACL. They also should stop constantly buying out other teams' stars and instead again concentrate on their own youth system, similar to the good old days. Btw. what's up with Haghighi, I heard he has got a ban.

Sorry to Payman khan for discussing something out of mani topic, but here is my two cents.
Agree with your first part of post. About PP youth program, even during the Pahlavi regime PP wasn't known for its youth program. I am sure they had somehting, but you never saw any product of PP youth compared to Taj. For example Hasan Nazari, Hassan Rowshan, Hadi Naraghi, Shahrookh, Shahin Bayani, Reza Ahadi, Reza Nalchegar, etc. were all SS youth program.

I know about the situation in our football at that time and how Khosravani was using his influence to bring many of these players from Banke Melli, Rah Ahan, Char Sad Dastgah, Maydoone Zhaleh and the traditional support of Taj in Khuzestan brought a lot of youth players from Abadan, Ahwaz, Masjid Solayman. Point is PP never was known for its youth program. If you look at youth and Omid League in Iran PP doesnt' have a bright record.

Serious effort in a youth development program seemed to started under Majid Sabzi (god bless his soul) and with his passing away it got it hicccup. I know Currently PP has youth program as well.

Haghighi is a hot head and gets into all kind of issues with Daie. Haghighi was considered Shays Rezai buddy, even during the travels on the road Shays and Haghighi were roommates (despiet couple of times they fought too, but hey you know how it is in Iran). With Shays gone, Haghighi is kind of in the black list again.

[Mansoor]

I think each game and each team should be looked at individually. No team should choose to play certain style, offensively or defensively, all the time. Game plan and strategy are not general terms, but rather event dependent.

It also depends on the quality of your players and how it is executed. If you just put three forwards in line up, it does not mean winning or even scoring any goal, the fundamental question remains as to what strategy and game plan, and how the players executed it.

Now in specific, I agree with Peyman's observation regarding four ACL games and the Asian Cup. Wrong strategy and game plans failed, and the team with "proper" game plan and strategy AND well execution prevailed.