"Three Defensive mid-fielders" Formation was not Starnage and Stupid After All!!

[Babak agha]

I don't know Hajagha, I have to disagree with you. The second match was way better for Real.. In the first they also escaped some red cards..
I mean if everybody is saying Mourinho chose the wrong tactics, he probably did chose the wrong tactics.
But this is becoming a meaningless discussion again where everyone is trying to prove himself right.

For me personally, Real chose the wrong tactics. However the 3 DM of Iran could have worked out way better than it did in the SK game. Wether it was Qotbi's plan to defense that badly or not I don't know for sure.., but those 3 DM have proven that they also can attack very well.
On the otherside, Real played with 2 DM and a CB in the midfield, so they were even playing more defensively than Iran, despite having all those players

[Doctor DOOM]

Well, As I mentioned in the initial post, I assumed when the highest paid coach in the world who is the most decorated coach in the world, does some thing, it's the point to consider and learn. Particularly, from a nation who is ranked currently 2nd or 3rd pot in ASIA.

and to demonstrate how EFFECTIVE these decisions were I asked a few simple questions, which shd highlight how ineffective they were.

jigar, we just hired a coach who barely survived in that club. This coach happened the highest ranked coach ever stepped in Iran. At some point, you gotta put your gun down and start observing, maybe there is some body who knows better than you. No need to shoot any one.

You can write 100000 pages about Barca, but not every team can play like them. In order to play like that, you need players like Messi and Xavi, when you don't have such players, you need to adjust your tactic and strategy to increase your chance.

frankly I dont know where you got this from in my posts, coz I wasnt saying we shd perform like barca or barca players.
the thread started with promotion of the 3 DM in a european game and the rebuttal was a few questions that underlined or reminded us how ineffective it was in terms of the club/coach winning the tie.

neither am I claiming to be better than moan-rinho. but I certainly can (and will) comment on his decisions and behavior and words. and with the help of a few quotes from other highly decorated coaches, it is shown his tactics were wrong (not to mention his behavior ... which btw, has got him a 5 match ban. hehehehe)

If you compare the first match and the second match, you will see Barca had more chances in the second match, they just simply missed them. He started a media fight against the ref's, it gave the fruit just a week later when they escaped minimum two red cards by putting the ref under huge pressure, it's called intelligence... mmmm, what's the point to talk about the matches and their tactics. In your view, the highest paid coach of the world is بیمار خاص


Cheers,

I'm sorry. if you want me to approve or endorse utter crass and b1tchy behavior by a coach who instead of making use of the abundance of stars at his disposal, instead he chooses to act like a spoilt brat moaning about why he doesnt get away with his unsporting tactics and words!!!

so yes, in my view, he is truly sick in mind and more and more ppl in the world are discovering this and adjusting their views about him. just check the news and see how they talk about him these days (compared to a couple of years ago).

[Hajagha]

^
1, Your questions were irrelevant to this post. My point was the 3 DMs formation is there and the top teams in world are using it. Whether you like it or not, if you think they shouldn't use it or not, or the outcome of the game was or was not in favor of the team using 3 DMs do not change the fact that the top teams in the world use it.

2, I get the sense that even you don't read your own posts. Read your posts again. You keep saying because Barca won, then Real was not using the right tactic. Maybe the game was not winable no matter what tactic was used. To be honest, I don't judge the teams at this level, I try to observe and learn why the coach did it.

3, Have you heard about "psychological warfare"? I am sure you have.

Cheers,

[Doctor DOOM]

^
1, Your questions were irrelevant to this post. My point was the 3 DMs formation is there and the top teams in world are using it. Whether you like it or not, if you think they shouldn't use it or not, or the outcome of the game was or was not in favor of the team using 3 DMs do not change the fact that the top teams in the world use it.

indeed. pretty much like saying: "there are ppl chopping their own hands or throwing themselves down wells in the world. whether you like it or not. if you think that they shdnt do this and end up dead does not change the fact that ppl do throw themselves down wells."

okay.

as for barca, again I must repeat I believe Real has the star power and large enough squad to put a dent on barca. they just arent led well by such a negative, destructive coach

and we all saw the result of this "psychological warfare"; a more determined & focused guardiola & barca which won the games that really mattered. so much for the warfare ... lol (and lets not even begin with the ridicule piled on him by other coaches and journalists as well as the uefa 5 match ban

[Hajagha]

^ We do have different philosophies. I don't see myself expert in Barca-Real game. You do.

When I see a person "chopping hand" in the best hospital in the world, I think he is a surgeon, you think he is a butcher (the sick one even).

Cheers,

[Doctor DOOM]

^ lol. thanks for thinking of me as an expert on barca & Real. but I'm no expert. all I do is say what I see. and I do see a lot of quality on Real. definitely enough to claim they have the capacity to do far greater and achieve far more than what they do at present. and this is not only me speaking. there are quite a lot of true experts and coaches in the world who maintain the same belief.

on barca, well, if there's only one game that I watch in a week, it's going to be barca's. so I may be a bit familiar with them.


I supposed you're going to compare jumping down the well with diving into a swimming pool now, eh? but I hope you have understood the purpose of me saying that just becoz someone does something wrong does not justify us copying that.

[Hajagha]

I hope you have understood the purpose of me saying that just becoz someone does something wrong does not justify us copying that.

Keep interpreting your view as fact.

The facts are:
- Real Madrid used 3 DMs.
- Real Madrid is one of the best 3 clubs in the world.
- Real is the most decorated club in the world.
- Real's coach is the highest paid coach in the world.
- This post title is: Defensive mid-fielders" Formation was not Starnage and Stupid After All!!

I never said this is the formation we should use all the time, nor Real use it all the time. It's a formation and it's not strange and stupid.

You say "you are not expert" and you jump to say "the highest paid coach in the world" did some thing that YOU think is wrong!!!??? Make your mind jigar, you are either an expert and air your view or you are not expert and observe and learn. Hoiw and when we should use such a formation is not issue that can be a subject to debate, but we can not debate if such a formation exist and is not strange and stupid, why? Because the best coach in the best team in the world used it, as simple as that.

You can reinvent the wheel to make sure it was right.

Cheers,

[Doctor DOOM]

Keep interpreting your view as fact.

The facts are:
- Real Madrid used 3 DMs.
- Real Madrid is one of the best 3 clubs in the world.
- Real is the most decorated club in the world.
- Real's coach is the highest paid coach in the world.
- This post title is: Defensive mid-fielders" Formation was not Starnage and Stupid After All!!

I never said this is the formation we should use all the time, nor Real use it all the time. It's a formation and it's not strange and stupid.

You say "you are not expert" and you jump to say "the highest paid coach in the world" did some thing that YOU think is wrong!!!??? Make your mind jigar, you are either an expert and air your view or you are not expert and observe and learn. Hoiw and when we should use such a formation is not issue that can be a subject to debate, but we can not debate if such a formation exist and is not strange and stupid, why? Because the best coach in the best team in the world used it, as simple as that.

You can reinvent the wheel to make sure it was right.

Cheers,

??? ..... which brings us all the way back to the first square:

1- what did this 3 def-mid achieve?
2- what did real create in terms of offense?
3- werent they playing at home, therefore enjoying home advantage?
4- and finally what was the score?

(from page 1)

no expert. but someone who trusts his own eyes first rather than allow some claims & labels cloud my vision.
my eyes saw a team that was incapable of creating anything up front, didnt achieve anything and eventually was overpowered AT HOME, despite having a truck-load of highly skilled SUPER STARS.
and what's interesting is that this view is validated by some of the great coaches in the world too.

hala all those "labels and claims and money and supposed reputations" WILL NOT CHANGE THE WAY THEY ALLOWED T BE DOMINATED ( at home) , NOR THE SCORE AND THE RESULT OF THE GAME.





but all this struggle, push-n-pull, and argument for what? to justify the stupid decisions a girls' school coach made that ironically had the very same results : getting dominated, failing to create anything and finally, losing the game in most embarrassing way (showing some of the most gutless and mouse-like football in the tournament .... not even seen by the likes of minnows, India )

[Hajagha]

^
- Yes, we do have a fundamental different views. That's why we always come back to the square 1.

- Your eyes don't conclude, it's your mind that conclude. So, don't think what you see is exactly what the others conclude too. You keep saying it's so obvious, even a non-expert person like you can see, but the highest paid coach in the world who is the most decorated coach in the world too can not see it. Have you thought about whether the whole Madrid club must be crazy? Do you follow the news how many clubs are after this "STUPID" coach who can't see what is an obvious to the eyes of you who claim is not even expert?

- Coaches put the strategy and tactic BEFORE the game, nagging people whine after the game. Not all the strategies gives the victory, otherwise what was the point to play, it's supposed to increase the chance of winning. See the difference?

- Yes, all this argument/debate is about that particular game against S. Korea. I don't defend that "Girls coach", you know it. I think we had almost no chance to win that game, we adopted the best strategy to resist and become the "lucky" one, well it didn't work. But, it doesn't mean the strategy and formation were wrong.

- I had another argument/debate with you showing even Barca will adopt to a more defensive strategy when needed, what did you come up with? Keita can lob the ball!!! then he is not a defensive mid!!!!

- What you call "gutsy", some people call it "headless". What you call "gutless", some people call it "logic, well-thought-out, rational". It depends on the person.

- You keep saying Real has so many super-stars, then they shouldn't play that formation, I am not idiot, I understand your point, but I don't think Mourinho is stupid one either (as you see it as an easy way out), I think he must have had a good reason to send star studded squad in that formation.

- Comparing Real-Barca to Korea-Iran, I came to the conclusion that we had more reasons to play with 3 DMs. However, it's so easy jumping to the conclusion and blaming it all on formation and coaching as we are not very strange with this part.

- Still, not satisfied? I think so. From here it's just repeating myself.

Cheers,

[Ali Chicago]

Payman jaan;

What do you think about Man U Barsa game? It seemed Man U played a 4-4-1-1 basically and were no match for Barca? Do you think Ferguson was negative too?

It isn't an " I told you attitude", please don't get me wrong. I would like to see what you concluded from the Man U vs. Barca game.

For me the key is, what a coach desires can be different from reality and caoch's job is to send the team to the field who has the best chance of winning. This against Barca usually means keeping the game close and hoping to score aginast them. Take the lead and defend to death it seems.

[Hajagha]

Payman jaan;
What do you think about Man U Barsa game? It seemed Man U played a 4-4-1-1 basically and were no match for Barca? Do you think Ferguson was negative too?
It isn't an " I told you attitude", please don't get me wrong. I would like to see what you concluded from the Man U vs. Barca game.
For me the key is, what a coach desires can be different from reality and coach's job is to send the team to the field who has the best chance of winning. This against Barca usually means keeping the game close and hoping to score against them. Take the lead and defend to death it seems.

Barca plays one level above any team in the world of football. Before, they had to penetrate to score, now they adopted the shot from behind the box. There is no solution yet to stop them. It doesn't matter what kind of formation you gear, you will lose. Coaches try to stay ultra defensive to keep themselves longer in the game to test their luck, they may get lucky.

Ferguson said that this Barca is the best team he ever played against. We saw that he had no solution to Barca attacking machine.

saying that, still Barca changed Villa with Keita to keep the result as it is. Some thing our Doc calls it spineless.

Cheers,

[Doctor DOOM]

Oh dea god!!!
the above remark proves you havent understood what I was talking about!!!!

[Babak agha]

Ps: I'm not laughing at anyone but just at the situation and the comments.

[Ali Chicago]

Well, I tried to understand and asked what to me seems like legit questions. I didn't get any answer, but it seems at least I provided entertainment to a few (hey that in itself is positive).

[Babak agha]

^ hahha no it's not only you or DD or anyone else

It's just the way of "the going back and forth" (regardless of the topic). It has become like a real sitcome (maybe DD's avatar has something to do with it).

But back on topic:

Like I said before here in Holland you have multiple TV-Talk Shows where they discuss and analyze the games and football in general. And here is what they had to say in a nutshell:

Ronald Koeman was there for the game and they asked him to join the players for the after party but he refused as he thought it's their moment. I wrote this to give you an example about the "family feeling" Barca has. Koeman (and the Talk Show host who witnessed it all) was explaining that the club has a very warm culture and that as a player, once you get in, you're part of the family and no matter how famous you were (or not) when ever you go back they welcome you as family.......(I guess Karimi and Kia could say the same about PP :P)

Koeman went on to praise the position-passing-pressuring style of Barca. The other people on the show wanted to credit Cruijff with that (as the Dutch are way too chauvinistic...just like Iranians, maybe even worse) But Koeman tried to tone that down by saying that: it all started with Cruijff and us (himself and the other Dutch players), but the positiong-passing-pressuring game that Barca displays today is something else. And that the players are way better and skilled than the "dream team" of Barca back then.

On another show there was a discussion between Van Hanegem (best defender in the Dutch football history and who would be named among Pele, Maradona and Cruijff if he didn't play during the time that Cruijjf played too) and Van der Gijp (ex-Dutch international and teammate of Gullit etc. who is very funny and tells things as they are, without roo-darvasi).

Van Hanegem was of the opinion that there is no strategy, tactic or formation that's build against this team. He says that Barca is too exceptional and that no matter what you do you'll lose. As we've seen it happen to various team, with different formations and tactics.

Van der Gijp was of the opinion that Fergi had told the players to go out there and enjoy the game. As ManU players were mere expectators like the rest of us. He said that with the exception of the first 10 minutes, they didn't pressurize the Barca players and just tried defending while walking back, which only plays in the favor of Barca. He is of the opinion that if you pressurize enough and don't let Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta pass the ball to each other, you will stand a chance. As long as you intercept, or prevent these 3 players to pass to each other or find each other you'll have a shot, as the rest of the team isn't nearly as good and can't pass very well either.