Where do you draw the line with professional coaches?

[Doctor DOOM]

BUT........Here is a scenario Reza Jan.

You are flying from JFK to Dubai and your Captain is none other than yours truly..of course , you are over-joyed because you are in very safe hands , and you would be sitting in the flight deck with your buddy. (Don't tell me , otherwise )

So , after having your lunch , I invite you to the Flight Deck to see those stunning looking instruments clusters and also to enjoy the C0ckpit view of earth. As you are sitting on the Jump Seat , I turn around to face the back where you are sitting and we start blabbing about everything including PFDC and whether Daei should be Iran's next President , when you notice that we are flying towards this huge Black Thunderstorm clouds, which is called Cumulonimbus or CB for short.

You remark on how mighty dangerous these clouds looks , just a polite and diplomatic way to tell me that we are flying right into it.

Yours truly , turns to look at this mass of huge CB out of the window, and as if nothing is of concern turn my face back and continue our chat where we left of.

NOW...there is a huge thunderous cloud right in the flight path , yet the person who is qualified and experienced , is showing no action,no concern and everything is hanky dory.What is your action , if any ?

This is not a football match where if you don't like the team performance or the result you leave the stadium , or if watching on TV , you switch off ...you are stuck here , buddy......hehhehheee...

Just food for thought.... I don't demand or expect an answer , but this is the type of situation I am talking about in this thread.

funny you shd bring up this example. recently I read a very interesting non-fiction book called "the outriders" that looks into individuals who are more successful and what sets them apart from the rest of the folks. I recommend our friends here to read the book (but dont take it as gospel as it tries to justify one's failures and allows an escape route for the lazy ppl - like me - to unburden some of the blame on "date of birth or network, or ..."! like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs are "proven" to be this successful becoz they were at the right place at the right time and had the right fortune breaks. had these breaks been slightly early or late or misplaced, they'd have been just a bunch of regular engineers and drop outs like a million others!!! weird book. but you may find it useful, even if as merely anecdotal, in your talks and lectures)

anyway, it had a section on the issue of communications between ppl and how important it is to be as frank and simple and direct as possible, which would make or break a serious situation. and how cultures differ in this matter.

the example was a korean airlines mishap where the plane had crashed into a mountain and on inspection of the black box the western investigators found plenty of clues why this accident happened and what could have been done to avoid it.

you see, the korean culture much like the japanese are extremely deferential to their seniors or bosses or persons placed higher in society. to cut a long story short, it seems the CO-PILOT had noticed a set of small (and insignificant by themselves. but significant as a collective) clues that pointed towards a major problem. but being extremely deferential, instead of straight away warning the senior pilot, he kept making timid remarks like “do you advise checking this or looking into that” (instead of what the westerners do which is “there’s a problem. We must check this”) … which was repeatedly ignored by the more experienced and senior pilot. The co-pilot repeats this a couple of more times when the pilot, replies frustrated and angry, that he knows better and is more experienced in this route and nothing would happen. A few minutes after that, they crash into a mountain because their defective/erratic radar (or another instrument like the warning system. Cant remember. Shitty memory, mine) had failed to warn them!


In case you are interested to know, the Korean airlines, after this investigation made sure all their pilots are trained by westerners with western standards and to do away with hierarchical deferential customs.

Goes to show everyone can make a mistake, even those with the greatest expertise and experience. And just about anyone can spot a flaw. Too much deference and thinking “he’s the pilot and he cant go wrong” may result in a lot of crashes. Even in football campaigns.

[Hajagha]

^Unlike Korean, Iranians are all boss. No shortage on that.

I recommend you not reading these kind of books. It's like poison for us.

Don't you believe me? Ask one of those Westerners should I read this book while we call our "Abdar-chi" >>> "Reis Edareh Abdar-khaneh".

I am sure you will get the right answer.

Cheers,

[Doctor DOOM]

edit: sorry guys, the book's name wasnt outriders. it was OUTLIERS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_%28book%29

[Mansoor]

I am sorry Agha Majid to respond late to this thread as my frequent trips out of town often doesn't leave me time to read some of these interesting threads and this is certainly one.

Any how, so much to write, so little time so I keep it short and summarized:

On my comment in football forum (referenced in first post)

When I said Carlos being true professional, it was meant to say he has a job description and he has priorities to fulfil. His player selection is based on such priorities. Did not mean to protect him from "evaluation" or criticism.

On "Where you draw the line"

I don't believe anyone should be isolated from criticism, being professional or not.

Contrary to some of doostan here, I don't believe fans should not express their opinion, technical or not, about coaches and their work.

In general, any professional should put his ego aside and "consider" inputs from public to "possibly" find new ideas or find missed shortcomings.

In football, I am not really a fan of "you are not the coach" counter discussions as it contradicts the concept of "football fans forum discussions".

Again, my words did not mean to imply such counter discussion rather remind fans that they should keep in mind Carlos professional approach when they "evaluate" his work.

On Carlos selection of old player like Samereh or an obvious weak players like ...

If Samereh plays today like Majidi and scores like him, I am with Carlos on selecting him, but if an obvious weak player (and Majidi is not one but Samereh is) is selected then obviously I would also complain.

HOWEVER, we must also understand each and every "successful and highly rated" coach like Carlos (and a successful professional in general) has a system.

They come with a package that "could possibly" bring success as it has worked for them before. Such system in some pieces or sections may seem odd to others at times but it is part of the system "that works".

When you trust a professional to do the work, you have to be more patient with micro pieces of his system to see "if" his system works; e.g. Pouladi.

And also, sometimes when a matter does not make sense to us with such a highly rated coach (or we don't understand it), it is not a bad idea to sometimes tell ourselves "Is it me OR is it Carlos?"

On your pilot and storm example

I am afraid that is not a good example. Your work is a matter of life or death. Certain professionals' work deal with human's life. Football coaches are not as such and therefore, dealing with their work is not as sensitive as yours is.

Questioning such sensitive professions like doctors and airline pilots requires more education than professions that often share knowledge with public via "experience" e.g. coaching football and watching their work closely and frequently.

However, if I am there and in that situation, first I remind myself that you were good enough friend of mine to invite me there in first place. Then, I allow myself to bring up my concern "more gently" with questions rather than complains:

Agha Majid, the storm we are heading to, is that dangerous? And has the aviation industry found solution to deal with such conditions or should I be concerned that we are heading into trouble?

I am sure if we are close friends to have me there, you would take your time to address my concern.

Mokhlesim.

Side note: Agha Babak, your comment about some of highly educated individuals being dumb is not correct and is in serious contradiction.

No individual w/o high IQ can survive PhD programs or medical schools.

What you have noticed on them is "lack of experience and sometimes lack of interest" in social life as you know it. Some of them are "too much" into their world of science that either have no interest or no opportunity to learn what you know and become "street smart".

[maij]

I am sorry Agha Majid to respond late to this thread as my frequent trips out of town often doesn't leave me time to read some of these interesting threads and this is certainly one.

Any how, so much to write, so little time so I keep it short and summarized:

On my comment in football forum (referenced in first post)

When I said Carlos being true professional, it was meant to say he has a job description and he has priorities to fulfil. His player selection is based on such priorities. Did not mean to protect him from "evaluation" or criticism.

On "Where you draw the line"

I don't believe anyone should be isolated from criticism, being professional or not.

Contrary to some of doostan here, I don't believe fans should not express their opinion, technical or not, about coaches and their work.

In general, any professional should put his ego aside and "consider" inputs from public to "possibly" find new ideas or find missed shortcomings.

In football, I am not really a fan of "you are not the coach" counter discussions as it contradicts the concept of "football fans forum discussions".

Again, my words did not mean to imply such counter discussion rather remind fans that they should keep in mind Carlos professional approach when they "evaluate" his work.

On Carlos selection of old player like Samereh or an obvious weak players like ...

If Samereh plays today like Majidi and scores like him, I am with Carlos on selecting him, but if an obvious weak player (and Majidi is not one but Samereh is) is selected then obviously I would also complain.

HOWEVER, we must also understand each and every "successful and highly rated" coach like Carlos (and a successful professional in general) has a system.

They come with a package that "could possibly" bring success as it has worked for them before. Such system in some pieces or sections may seem odd to others at times but it is part of the system "that works".

When you trust a professional to do the work, you have to be more patient with micro pieces of his system to see "if" his system works; e.g. Pouladi.

And also, sometimes when a matter does not make sense to us with such a highly rated coach (or we don't understand it), it is not a bad idea to sometimes tell ourselves "Is it me OR is it Carlos?"

On your pilot and storm example

I am afraid that is not a good example. Your work is a matter of life or death. Certain professionals' work deal with human's life. Football coaches are not as such and therefore, dealing with their work is not as sensitive as yours is.

Questioning such sensitive professions like doctors and airline pilots requires more education than professions that often share knowledge with public via "experience" e.g. coaching football and watching their work closely and frequently.

However, if I am there and in that situation, first I remind myself that you were good enough friend of mine to invite me there in first place. Then, I allow myself to bring up my concern "more gently" with questions rather than complains:

Agha Majid, the storm we are heading to, is that dangerous? And has the aviation industry found solution to deal with such conditions or should I be concerned that we are heading into trouble?

I am sure if we are close friends to have me there, you would take your time to address my concern.

Mokhlesim.
".

and I am sure you and many others argument here , the point is how valuable statements we make ( criticism , to be more precise).

At the end of the day and frankly it does not make any difference what we say or not , but if there was a quality response to the actions of the coach , a reasonable outcome based on professionalism and logic , a situational awareness ( which unfortunately we as fans cannot achieve as we are far away from the coaches and the players) , then maybe our questioning and concern WILL grow in stature , prominence and importance .

Then , it may make a difference , else it is all a wasteful exchanges of egos between people who have spare times to waste. (perhaps an excuse to be away from their spouses nagging )in my opinion only and that is MY OPINION

[Babak agha]

This a tricky situation with football coaches.

If you do NOT give the freedom to the coach (as many Foreign coaches have experienced in the Arabian countries of the Persian Gulf ), then you practically have indemnified the coach and he has within his full rights to deny reponsibilty for defeat or bad performance. If you impose one player only or one tactic or one substitution, he is indemnified.

And you cannot question a coach after every game either telling him why you did this substitution or why this or that. A decent coach or a coach with any dignity will answer you like this "Fine, since you know better ...then please come and take my seat and enjoy your new job " , this is if the coach is a nice guy , if he is a bit of bully , his words would be " Well, why the F*** they hired me if you know the job better , you might as well do the job"

Here , the guy who is questioning the coach or the evaluator , has a position in the federation , not just any fan or a player or so-called expert.


There are lots of other issues that you mentioned which are interesting that I like to discuss as we go along.

Well Maji jan, the world isn't as black and white as we depict it, there are many interesting shades of gray in between (unfortunately ?)

The interesting thing about football coaches:

There's alot of attention to the role of a coach here in holland right now. Especially due to the situation at hand at Ajax and their previous coaches and performances.

A lot of people (football critiques/reporters/writers, clubs, Johan Cruijf and other famous ex-players) are pleading for a less dominant role of a coach. They argue that a coach is just a "passenger" who is only there for a short time, so most of the things (such as buying new players etc) should be done by the technical director of the club (under supervision of board of directors, with some input from the the coach). Coaches should also explain themselves and their actions without having a carte blanche. Actually here in holland it's actually becoming a regular thing that when a coach performs bad, or not according to the wishes of the fans (read hooligans afiliated with the team), those fans will demand answers/changes/etc by sometimes even questionable actions

And believe me (unlike in UK) here in holland the journalist scrutinize and question every decision of a coach after each game. They don't even shy away from telling the coach what they did wrong and how they should have done it (the last one doesn't happen that often and is usually said in form of a question). Which almost every time lead to unforgettable moments with van Gaal as a coach.....


Ps: regarding the replies/questions from the coaches: I'd say that I would do the same job as 99% of them for not even 1/10 of their pay.

Now you must think that I'm crazy, but I can lose with weak teams just the way most coaches will, and will win with strong teams just like any other coach.

Do you really think that it would matter for a tiny bit who would coach Barca right now, as long as he would tell the players go out there and have fun, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel?

Do you think any coach would win the title with Arsenal this season? We saw how mr Wenger got his behind handed to him. I could have done that too (the losing part ). Perhaps I would have lost with an smaller margin too as I wouldn't be ashamed to tell the players that all of them should go and stand in our own box and just shoot the ball like Aghili, after 3-4 goals.

[Babak agha]

Oh and @ agha Mansoor and his comment regarding the highly educated dumb people:

First of all those things you mentioned (lack of interest in other things, not being "street smart" etc.) those could actualy be signs of high IQ

Perhaps I exadurated about being "dumb", as I didn't mean mentally challenged. But they are considerably "dumber" (in sense of logical reasoning, analytical skills, ability to learn new stuff etc.), than what you would except from someone with a master or a PhD. Believe me I know plenty of them personally and have seen vast amount of IQ statistics about this matter.

There are lots of companies which have a standard IQ test as part of their selection criteria and almost all management traineeship positions have that too. And when you see those results and the threshold values and......well you get the picture.

But what's more important than all of that is what you do with your intelligence, and whether you actual are able to use it to the fullest...

Perhaps what I'm trying to say that people in higher positions should remember once in a while that there are a lot of more intelligent and skillful people "below" them. Being intelligent doesn't guarantee any success. To the contrary: a high level of intelligent usually turns out to be a handicap preventing being successful.

There are lots of examples and articles about that. You could give it a "google" if you're interested. But some funny trivia: people with a high IQ level (being smarter than 98%, or more, of people) usually don't do well at school. They more often end up being "normal people" (buss-drivers, factory workers, mid-level office employee, etc) than CEO's, investor bankers etc. Furthermore, the chances of them ending up being homeless is way higher than "normal people".

[Mansoor]

Merci Agha Majid. I see your point.

I guess for me, the more respect I have for certain professional, the more careful I am in my concerns.

I use the "is it him OR is it me" more often and use more patience and more observation of his work before jumping to conclusion.

Obviously no one is perfect and there are always errors and mistakes which even an ordinary person can spot in a professional's work.

But, mistakes should not be confused with "preference that fits a system". To change those, system has to be modified.

Agha Babak, you are right. High IQ does not necessarily means success. Other major factors such as perseverance, discipline, and motivation play great role in success.

And reverse logic does not stand in subject explained. If a higher position person does have high IQ, it is not deducted that people below them, even a bus driver, has lower IQ. A bus driver might be there because of many reasons such as lack of discipline or motivation to progress to better jobs.

Regardless, high IQ is a necessary (not sufficient) condition to obtain PhD or finish medical school. That does not bring social skill to a person though. Experience, interest, and active social life does.

And yes, being "street smart" is a sign of high IQ. Those who are street smart but don't have higher education or "higher position" have the IQ but lacked other conditions to succeed, from wrong upbrining or rough environment to lack of discipline, etc.

[Babak agha]

^ pas badbakht torke rast migoft! Akhe azash porsidan chera tork shodi, jawab dad: chon emkanat nabood

Anyways back on topic:

I still doesn't believe that we should just obey, or take for granted that it's true, whatever a "professional" says. Sure the chances that they are right and the "ordinary" people are wrong is very high. But that doesn't mean that their opinions, suggestions, actions, are by default correct and shouldn't be questioned.

That's why we have the phenomenon of "a second opinion".......

However if every single professional is claiming the opposite of what you believe, while providing valid arguments and facts (and thus not just relying on I'm this and that, who the f are you), then you should think about the fact that you might be wrong after all......

Even if it's fielding 3 CDM in a match......but then again only 1 coach did that while at helm of TM...

[zzgloo]

In American Football NFL ...the responsibilities are divided and ranked as bellow..
1- The ownership.......who sets standards and goals and expects a certain level of profesionalism and results....and pays for it.
.
2- Managemener...who is hired to deliver the owner's expectations..and has a large staff of planners, drafters,traders,etc,etc...who has the job of hiring a coach,according to his plan of action to deliver the goal set by the owner.
.
3-The Coach,who is interviewed by the manager and chosen based on the phylosophy that manager set, and is accountable for results,and is given a certain time line to deliver the goals.
............................
So, in short......it is realy the wonership that is important.

[Hajagha]

Well, when I talk about evaluation of evaluator, I mean these kind of scenarios:



Imagine he is the coach, or he is the critic. It doesn't matter what's his role, he is about to kill the agriculture in that county, some thing human-kind has carried on for half a million years. Football is just 100 years old. It's much easier to evaluate with these "abgooshti" evaluations.

AliAbadi is his brother in Law.

Cheers,

[zzgloo]

The point well taken !
.
His body is made of 80 kilo of water
80 x 200 tooman = 1600 Tooman
he himself is not worth 1600 tooman, and worth lot less than 80 kilo of potato.

[maij]

Well, when I talk about evaluation of evaluator, I mean these kind of scenarios:



Imagine he is the coach, or he is the critic. It doesn't matter what's his role, he is about to kill the agriculture in that county, some thing human-kind has carried on for half a million years. Football is just 100 years old. It's much easier to evaluate with these "abgooshti" evaluations.

AliAbadi is his brother in Law.

Cheers,

It was an interesting theory by this evaluator. Frankly, I could see and understand his point of views and also appreciate what you are saying in respect of killing the agriculture.

I guess, I can understand (evaluate) the issue much better if I knew what Ahmendinejad objective was. In any case, I seriously doubt that he wants to kill agriculture in Iran. Not this guy.

The role of evaluator, in this case at least, must be combined with the objective of the evaluation. If AN is sending a strong message to the public about water shortage (which well know is becoming a very serious and critical issue in Iran) then his evaluation of the situation is spot on.


This scenario reminds of the half empty, half full glass !



If the argument that AH is killing the agriculture, the counter-argument that if he does not conserve water , he will turn a whole nation into karbala (Water shortage part of it) and citizen die of thirst.


But back to the subject , I still think the evaluator must have some kind of status and knowledge in the subject matter , but like the professional he is evaluating , he (the evaluator) is also not immune from mistakes.

[maij]

The point well taken !
.
His body is made of 80 kilo of water
80 x 200 tooman = 1600 Tooman
he himself is not worth 1600 tooman, and worth lot less than 80 kilo of potato.

The way he was doing the calculation , he asked for it

[maij]

^ pas badbakht torke rast migoft! Akhe azash porsidan chera tork shodi, jawab dad: chon emkanat nabood

Anyways back on topic:

I still doesn't believe that we should just obey, or take for granted that it's true, whatever a "professional" says. Sure the chances that they are right and the "ordinary" people are wrong is very high. But that doesn't mean that their opinions, suggestions, actions, are by default correct and shouldn't be questioned.

..

Let us apply this to a football coach.

Does the coach requires our opinion or suggestions ? NO
Does the coach expects us to question him ? NO
As football fans/supporters , is it our role to question or criticize the coach ? hmmmmmmmm...... there is where I am stuck.

Now......

After years of being a football fan ( not pseudo-critic or self proclaimed expert ) , I am having a change of heart about the professionalism of football coaches. Many of them are dogmatic , self centric and NOT the ideal role models of professionals. I believe many of the coaches commit crucial mistakes in matches , but the fact that we have already admitted that the felani coach is the greatest or the best , prevents us or curtail our criticism towards him.

On the other hand , I also think the majority of coaches are victimized by the system. Failures are 99.9% blamed on a coach , while poor performing players and incapable administrators who continually fail (like the IFF and Mr.. All grinning Kafashian) are protected by the system.

My conclusion is that , when it comes to Football , this game is far from being a true professional standard. It is like the game itself , hail Mary and lots of prayers and the result are mostly unpredictable.