Where do you draw the line with professional coaches?

[maij]

As a professional, I have always respected and appreciated other professionals’ works within my own field of expertise and outside of it. I always gave them the credit they are entitled to and the respect for their profession.

However , a title such as Captain , Doctor , Engineer that precedes a person’s name should never be a carte blanche for doing whatever that person likes leading to transgression detrimental to his profession. There should be mechanisms that prevent wrong behaviors, and erroneous acts becoming disasters. The Aviation industry has identified this, and it has become a science in itself.

What lead me to posting this thread, is a comment by Agha Mansoor in the General Forum on the thread titled “new Team Melli List..” quote” He is a true professional coach at work. You may wanna get used to such approach.”
Just to qualify my side , of course I agree 100% with what Mansoor mentioned as I already explained earlier, but what I am interested in is this:

“Where do you draw the line with professionals?”

Of course, this is a football forum so we perhaps want to focus on that , but I am also interested in other professionals. It is a very interesting subject that I have done presentation and workshops for professionals on the subject of Human factors error mitigation. The outcome has always been, really interesting.

So , How about a professional football coach , let us say Carlos Quieroz? . Let’s assume that he selected unknown player Abdulla Chahar-Tokhmi from Esteghlal Bandar Mogham for Team Melli (remote probability) , then selected Ali Samereh , definitely on the twilight of his career ( a probability) and Finally he selected a goalkeeper who is currently sorakh and his teams lies in the abyss of the table , like Haghighi ( a fact ), where do you Draw the line?

That was just an example, do not get obsessed by that one with Queiroz only. Broaden you mind and think of other possibilities , situations and scenarios. Let us see if we can draw some conclusion to say that this coach or that has reached that line .

You participation are most welcome.

[Babak agha]

The first problem with the so called professionals/specialists is that just because they have some expertise in their own field they think that they can comment on other stuff too, and that their opinion should be more important than other people.

Just because you have a PhD in maths doesn't mean your opinion or knowledge is more important/accurate regarding women's gymnastics, compared to an "ordinary" person without even an master degree.

If our professionals/specialist realize that, the world would be a better place

Second, a high level of education, a science degree, or a vast knowledge doesn't equal a high intelligent or ability of logical reasoning. Especially these days where even dumb people have access to education. And as long as the government or daddy wants is willing to pay, and you are not too bothered to memories lecture slides you can get your master degree or even your PhD. I know a lot of highly educated professionals/specialist (in medical, sciences, and business fields) who are, for a lack of a better word, pretty "dumb" (when it comes to basic things that are not in their field of expertise). But lets not get into that

However, some times being an expert in a thing/field doesn't require any education, intelligence, or logic, which we take for granted when we are talking about an experts.

Sometimes being good in something requires experience, natural talent, luck (being in the right place at the right moment, among the right people), and image (what people think of your skills, and how your PR roles).

One example of this is coaching a football team. Although an education and intelligent certainly wouldn't hurt, but they absolutely would not even guarantee you to be an average coach. As a matter of fact, almost all successful coaches today aren't that highly educated, nor have they an IQ rating no where near being eligible to be come a member of Mensa.

Some these coaches are purely lucky. Like Guardiola, Rijkaard (or who ever is going to coach Barca for the coming 5-10 years). For example Rijkaard became successful and well known during his time with Barca, when they won a lot of trophies. But what had he done before that, and what has he done after that? He was just lucky to have an inform Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Messi, Xavi, Deco, etc.

Some coaches are credited with spotting young talents and including young players to their rosters (CQ being an example). But honestly don't you think that even if you would find someone who has never heard of football before, and you would show them a couple of tapes of a young Maradonna, Ronaldo, Messi, Xavi, Ronaldinho, Figo, Zidanne, etc, etc, that he would go: I want him in my team? Finding a talent isn't something important or difficult. It's the most basic part of the job description of a coach. Hell, even we get to "find" talents just by watching them on TV.

The only thing a coach has to do is select the right players (in case of a national team it's easy, and in case of a club team it depends on your budget), put them on the right spots (and not trying midfielders as LB, RB, and ST like it happens in Iran) keep them fit (which is a science, but it's done by the fitness coach and co) and let them play. And if they do that, they become an "expert". As long as they do that: great. But when they fail to do that, even us mere mortals can question their doings.

The greatest coaches have one thing in common, they have a natural talent of knowing how to communicate with different kind of people, give them confident and a "warm" feeling and how to make them give everything for the coach. Like Mourinho, Hiddink, etc.

No expert should ever get carte blanche to do what ever they want, without people being able to criticize their doings. For a matter of fact the more questions and scrutinizing a professional can handle and answer/explain in a basic logical way the higher he should be rated in his trade.

When a coach does something, selects a player (or not), that doesn't fit our knowledge we can voice our concerns! And as long as he or she keeps getting results we can't do more than just do that: voice our concerns. But when they do fail to meet the target.........

[Doctor DOOM]

I will complete babak's line of thought on the coach's duties:

as long as the coach
- picks the right player
- based on the right criteria (abilities, fitness and form. not fame and name)
- puts him in the right position
- and asks the right set of duties (including strategy and formation)
- and subs the right player if he fails to deliver those duties
then we can say he has done his job.
( this is besides game reading, discovery of strengths and weaknesses of his team and the opponents, preparing the team and individual players, physically and mentally, developing relationships and ... etc, of course)

but even the greatest of coaches are prone to drop the ball in one or more of the above categories. we're, afterall human and error prone. so here is the line majid is focusing on.
some may decide to keep silent becoz according to them only a coaching certified individual has the right to speak about these things and therefore, in case of mistakes, criticize the coach. and some think it is ok to do that as long as they have valid reasons for their remarks.

[Martin-Reza]

This is a very complex issue and will be hard to be handled completely.

I think one major thing in this regard will always be management by objectives. If you set realistic obejectives and regularily review them, you will get a good picture.

If the coach selects Tokhmi and Samereh but yet reaches all targets, you can easily judge him without having to question every tiny step.

One thing I'd like to add here too is that even professional make wrong decisions or sometimes fail, which doesn't mean they should have been fired before or never been appointed. The same decisions in a slightly different set of circumstances and different fortunes can have very different outcomes.

[zzgloo]

Professional ....means... an individual or an act...that is focused on the grand policy and perspective of a proccess.
no decision or statement or act should be taken unless it is in line with "grand policy ", and predetermind direction that has been set forward.......
being totaly dedicated and BEING A Pawn of a system that is set forward.
Willing to work harder
Do as told
listen ,and learn as asked
team work as designed
self motivated
In line with company polecies....
speaking and acting in the interest and image of the company at all time.
to preserve and advance the goals of the company.

[Babak agha]

^ is it me or does that sound more like communism?

Just kiddin

You can also describe professionalism as admitting your mistakes and shortcomings, accepting and handling critic, being able to deal with your loss, learning from your mistakes, accepting other people's opinion and learning from it even if it's not in line with your own, knowing your limits, tolerating deviating opinions, how you get up again after you fall, etc etc

[Hajagha]

“Where do you draw the line with professionals?”

Your "draw" will be a subject for others to evaluate you how you judge.

I don't think there is much different in various industries. It's exactly how "you present" such a subject in aviation industry. By your "presentation", others will be entitled to evaluate you.

That's why we have "yellow journals" when their color is not. The depth of people in a population will be different though. You never get rid of populists.

Cheers,

[maij]

I will be frequently visiting this post , because day by day I see so many examples that is useful and worthy of consideration for real people and those who are professional enough to draw conclusions from Football world into their own professions.

I was ready to add my comments on the subject matter after the historic defeat of Arsenal against Man Utd and the role of Arsene Wenger. I got bogged down in other tasks and never had the chance to do it.

Then came the first half of Iran's match vs. Indonesia, again the same subject cropped up , but I bit my tongue and elected to wait to the end of the match.

And now it is a good opportunity since , Agha Reza reminded me about the "Evaluator"

Yes , it is interesting how people see things differently. Karimi's performance was a classic. I don't believe for a second that he was bad at all , in fact he was good. Even Doc says so , and Doc is a hard man to please.

I really don't have much input in the evaluator argument except that the reader , should or must have trust in the writer judgment and accept his viewpoints rather than riding on the bandwagon and accepting what he wants to accept while ignoring the things that does not suite his taste.


Queiroz is my subject, though.

How did he manage to select this squad while he was away on leave/vacation ? The answer , he didn't. Someone else did and CQ used his rubber stamp to approve it. Is there any argument against this?

I am not usually into the technical analysis of the team and game plan , but could one explain , why would Queiroz elect to use such game plan where he bombarded the Indonesians from the right flank mainly (before Pouladi got into the act and did it from the left flank as well ) to 3 short targets , Majidi , Rezaei or Khalatbary ?
For the record , none of those crosses by Heydari or Pooladi yielded any results with our no-too-tall forward line. And that should not be surprising.


It is these obvious commissions or shortcoming that leaves people question the professional coaches.

Everyone who had even slight familiarity with Arsenal team , knew that the team is in dire need for a solid defense specially central defenders, except perhaps Wenger himself who for one reason or another , did not recruit anyone and depended on his youth ......... aaaaaaand the result was 8-2 defeat - a disaster of a unique kind.

What good is Arsene Wenger titles , reputation and accolades in this case?



the rest will follow soon...

[Hajagha]

What good is Arsene Wenger titles , reputation and accolades in this case?



the rest will follow soon...

It's always pleasure to read yours. mmmm, telling you, you gotta think about writting a novel for your spare time. Such a smooth writer.

Arsenal got its worst historic result by "the best coach in the world" from my view. Surely there are some blames on Wenger, but am I reducing him from the top spot? Not yet.

Back to the cross line and topic of this post: We should not draw the line too close. We gave 3 years contract for a reason. One is "we trust you and we keep you no matter what", then we gotta act like one. If you don't trust and would like to micromanage, then don't give away such a contract.

See the horizon, not tip of your nose. Of course I don't talk about your nose agha Majid.

Agha Majid, give us some tips on the topic that you teach. It seems very interesting.

Cheers,

[Doctor DOOM]

Majid jan, Me ... a hard man to please? Me? I'm a freaking harmless, cuddly pus$y cat.

btw, Very good observations on the 3 short forwards on the receiving end of crosses. ... a matter which was worsened when the 3 was reduced to a single forward!

anyway, we are stuck with the prejudiced iranian selection & squad for the next game. all we can hope for is for CQ's elephant not feel homesick and wish to travel to hindustan and he stays put and watches IPL games. then we may get to see his true selection.


On Wenger, one of my favorite coaches, all I can say is perhaps his insistence on youth has got the better of him and his judgment. It is not bad to keep a couple of experienced players, especially in his backline and midfield.

[maij]

It's always pleasure to read yours. mmmm, telling you, you gotta think about writting a novel for your spare time. Such a smooth writer.

Reza Jan... tora be khoda ,,sharmandeh ,,, I feel like a little shy girl with the thumb in the mouth act

Arsenal got its worst historic result by "the best coach in the world" from my view. Surely there are some blames on Wenger, but am I reducing him from the top spot? Not yet.

Back to the cross line and topic of this post: We should not draw the line too close. We gave 3 years contract for a reason. One is "we trust you and we keep you no matter what", then we gotta act like one. If you don't trust and would like to micromanage, then don't give away such a contract.

See the horizon, not tip of your nose. Of course I don't talk about your nose agha Majid.

I am glad you and the Doc share my view on Wenger. To me , he typifies the professionalism in his job and the ability to nourish and cultivate talents like no one I have ever seen or heard of in the history of football. But there is the catch...his incredible talent and confidence in his own ability and those of his player's , most of whom are so young that you will be pardoned if you mistaken Arsenal to a high school team in some matches , has created an ill effect.

It is called complacency and arrogance. It hits us all and the more qualified and experienced one is , the more likely he will suffer from this.
The question I asked which is the subject matter is where do you draw the line with a professional coach? Me and perhaps millions others , suspected form two or three seasons ago that Arsenal need some quality players to augment the youth policy and yet I asked myself , whom am I to question the Great Arsen Wenger??

Ask for our own CQ , I have never been a keen supporter of micro management in all fields not only football where in fact such intrusions mostly ruin teams. I did not recruit him personally nor gave him ultimatums or targets. So , I kind have no inhibition of criticism.

All that said , we need to support him however we can't simply ignore obvious shortfalls. In professional world there should be no place for mistakes and turning a blind eye on the pretext that we trust the boss. His is making mistakes, He shpould be aware of it from the onset rather when it is too late.

Agha Majid, give us some tips on the topic that you teach. It seems very interesting.

Cheers,

I teach many subjects , but the closest to my heart is "Human factors in Aviation". The subject started in earnest about three decades ago after series of deadly and disastrous accidents that cost billions of dollars and thousands of lives. The major reasons of Aviation accidents and crashes , are the pilots. Human are responsible for 70 to 80% of air accidents as we speak . The industry decides to declare war (..) with the ultimate aim of mitigating human error and understanding when and where the human is most vulnerable to committing errors. The system uses a mixture of science, psychology , chemistry & medicine , human behavior analysis amongst many others.

The subject started to take a major role in Aviation safety and is mandatory for all pilots and some other crews like the mechanics to attend workshops and courses . Other industries took a keen interest and followed Aviation by training their professionals, the most serious and advanced Human factors training system after aviation belongs to the Nuclear Industry , of course for obvious reasons.

Beside the professional aspects, it is one hell of an interesting and intriguing subject. It grew on me and I took a very keen interest in it. A human being has a very complicated set of behaviors that is much more difficult to deal with , compared to machines...and there where the challenge lies.

I hope that explains it ., Agha Reza.

[Hajagha]

I hope that explains it ., Agha Reza.

Thanks, it would be never enough. Very interesting subject indeed. I thought most of the aviation accidents are machinery failure. Now, I am scared to get into a plane.
Back to the subject, I think when an unqualified person being assigned for a task, this opens the door to be evaluated by another unqualified person. This reminded me a joke that I should write it in Farsi:

یک روز غضنفر میخواست یکی رو از خواب بیدار کنه بهش گفت "بپاش"، کلممد گفت "اینجوری نمیگن که، میگن پاشیده شو

Now this is our story of life in Iran, imagine this Ghazanfar being the pilot/coach/... and that Kalmamad tries to teach him how to do the job.

Cheers

[maij]

Thanks, it would be never enough. Very interesting subject indeed. I thought most of the aviation accidents are machinery failure. Now, I am scared to get into a plane.
Back to the subject, I think when an unqualified person being assigned for a task, this opens the door to be evaluated by another unqualified person. This reminded me a joke that I should write it in Farsi:

یک روز غضنفر میخواست یکی رو از خواب بیدار کنه بهش گفت "بپاش"، کلممد گفت "اینجوری نمیگن که، میگن پاشیده شو

Now this is our story of life in Iran, imagine this Ghazanfar being the pilot/coach/... and that Kalmamad tries to teach him how to do the job.

Cheers

Heheeee.... You mean "the Blind leading the blind"

I am afarid , there are lots of Kalmamads in our world.

Something about the evaluator that I should mention , although it seems to be obvious :

There are two types of dangerous pilots ( or professionals), the ones who know too much , hence they habitually or inadvertently become complacent and/or arrogant. The other type are the ones who claim knowledge without really having it or pull rank in situations where there knowledge falls short to address a critical situation.

Of course , the latter case is the more dangerous of the two.

A quick look at the threads in this website, you can see that the majority and thousands of them are the latter type, the ones who CLAIM that they have the knowledge. So , as far as your evaluator goes , I think we are handicapped here because we are faced with opinions , ideas , viewpoints of people who claim knowledge acquired through watching matches on TV rather being professionals who know the ends and outs of coaching and football , never mind how easy the subject is. It is football , for God sake , not neurological surgery.

For me , It is always a difficult issue to question a professional football coach , while I have very superficial knowledge and zilch academical or practical qualification in that field.


BUT........Here is a scenario Reza Jan.

You are flying from JFK to Dubai and your Captain is none other than yours truly..of course , you are over-joyed because you are in very safe hands , and you would be sitting in the flight deck with your buddy. (Don't tell me , otherwise )

So , after having your lunch , I invite you to the Flight Deck to see those stunning looking instruments clusters and also to enjoy the C0ckpit view of earth. As you are sitting on the Jump Seat , I turn around to face the back where you are sitting and we start blabbing about everything including PFDC and whether Daei should be Iran's next President , when you notice that we are flying towards this huge Black Thunderstorm clouds, which is called Cumulonimbus or CB for short.

You remark on how mighty dangerous these clouds looks , just a polite and diplomatic way to tell me that we are flying right into it.

Yours truly , turns to look at this mass of huge CB out of the window, and as if nothing is of concern turn my face back and continue our chat where we left of.

NOW...there is a huge thunderous cloud right in the flight path , yet the person who is qualified and experienced , is showing no action,no concern and everything is hanky dory.What is your action , if any ?

This is not a football match where if you don't like the team performance or the result you leave the stadium , or if watching on TV , you switch off ...you are stuck here , buddy......hehhehheee...

Just food for thought.... I don't demand or expect an answer , but this is the type of situation I am talking about in this thread.

[maij]

No expert should ever get carte blanche to do what ever they want, without people being able to criticize their doings. For a matter of fact the more questions and scrutinizing a professional can handle and answer/explain in a basic logical way the higher he should be rated in his trade.

When a coach does something, selects a player (or not), that doesn't fit our knowledge we can voice our concerns! And as long as he or she keeps getting results we can't do more than just do that: voice our concerns. But when they do fail to meet the target.........

This a tricky situation with football coaches.

If you do NOT give the freedom to the coach (as many Foreign coaches have experienced in the Arabian countries of the Persian Gulf ), then you practically have indemnified the coach and he has within his full rights to deny reponsibilty for defeat or bad performance. If you impose one player only or one tactic or one substitution, he is indemnified.

And you cannot question a coach after every game either telling him why you did this substitution or why this or that. A decent coach or a coach with any dignity will answer you like this "Fine, since you know better ...then please come and take my seat and enjoy your new job " , this is if the coach is a nice guy , if he is a bit of bully , his words would be " Well, why the F*** they hired me if you know the job better , you might as well do the job"

Here , the guy who is questioning the coach or the evaluator , has a position in the federation , not just any fan or a player or so-called expert.


There are lots of other issues that you mentioned which are interesting that I like to discuss as we go along.

[Hajagha]

NOW...there is a huge thunderous cloud right in the flight path , yet the person who is qualified and experienced , is showing no action,no concern and everything is hanky dory.What is your action , if any ?
.

Once, I was flying over Washington DC area and the pilot kept us in the sky for two hours as it was thunder storm. So, I suddenly become "Kalmamad" thinking to myself "I know every thing and you should do some thing". At the same time, you are the only hope I have then I should not make you mad as the situation worsening. So, I choose to shut up I guess.

Still, inside I am nothing but storm and the only sign you would see will be the "wet pants" that I wear know. I don't know should I jump up and down screaming and letting every one know about the situation, or should I keep it quite and look at you from the corner of my eyes begging "please do some thing, I don't wanna die".

I would swear at my luck why I should go to the cabin at this moment, instead I could have sat at my seat sipping my red win knowing nothing.

Now, it's in my head and I can not "not think about it". shoottttttttt

Cheers