Iran - Bahrain (11 Oct 2011)

[maij]

^

Majid jan, my answer is some thing between the following two:

is it by pure speculation ?
is it because you firmly believe that his tasks , should be the ones you mentioned.

It was my observation of the game.

From what I saw, I think the game formation was 4-1-4-1. Seeing that Nekonam is receiving all the balls from the D and start to distribute it and also from my knowledge of the game how such a player in that position should play.

My primary example as a role model came to my mind during the game to evaluate him was Xavi Alonso. Besides, I have played myself the same position and picture myself and Alonso (not much difference ) to that position.

Cheers,

Baaah...Chaker Reza Jan Aziz Hastam.

I suspected that you were speculating.

In that case ( speculating) then the argument is wide open for much debate. What is I said to you that CQ wanted a full throttle attack on Bahrain ? Did you see how he was waving his hands angrily telling the players to go forward? In fact even the news wires reports mentioned that CQ wanted a more offensive team even when they were 4 goal up.

I am no where near the standard of CQ technical abilities in training , but when it comes to football strategy , one can simulating the thoughts going inside a coach. I would really go for the jugular when I see a team is there for the taking like the case was against Bahrain, I am strongly SPECULATING , (with the added bonus of proof from TV and news reports) that Queiroz was thinking the same and going for the jugular ass well.

Based on that , I thought that Nekounam's contribution was quite modest to be respectable to him , but if I need to be a bit more forceful , I would say that he had a poor game for a player in his caliber and reputation.

[maij]

Majid jaan salam.....
Thanks for noticing my absence....!
I was in IRAN, for a month ....and have some nice photos from my trip and visiting Azadi stedium....Esteghlal vs PP, and Esteghlal vs saipa...but I do not know how to shrink the size of the photos to post them for my fellow members here........
It is good to be back !

Bah Bah,,,Rasidan be khair. Inshalla ke khosh gozasht.

There are many applications you can use to decrease the size of the image. The best is Paint.net , it is a fantatstic tool for photo editing , save and convert to different formats, simple to use , has nearly everything you can think of (photo tools) and best of all , it is free.

you can download it here

Welcome back.

[maij]

Exactly. It's not Nekounam's role to create opportunities, it's merely to distribute the ball safely to those who should. If he contributes well to attack, that's a bonus. .

I am speculating , that you are also speculating on Nekounam's role.

[zzgloo]

CQ Freshman Grades !!??

Jalla Talebi's assesment

..........

ايران - بحرين /22
طالبي: رشد تاكتيكي تيم ملي ايران تحسين برانگيز است
تهران - سرمربي تيم ملي فوتبال ايران در جام جهاني 1998 فرانسه معتقد است كه تيم ملي كشورمان رشد تاكتيكي چشمگيري كرده است.


جلال طالبي سه شنبه شب در گفت و گو با خبرنگار ورزشي ايرنا، افزود: تيم ملي بحرين در ديدار مقابل ايران حرفي براي گفتن نداشت و بازيكنان ما در تمام سطوح بازي برتر از حريف بودند.
وي ادامه داد: تيم بحرين در ديدار با ما هيچ حرفي براي گفتن نداشت و بازيكنان ما نگذاشتند آنها تاكتيك هاي خود را در زمين پياده كنند.
سرمربي اسبق تيم ملي فوتبال ايران گفت: پيشرفت بازيكنان تيم ملي كشورمان در اين ديدار بسيار تحسين بر انگيز بود و اميدوارم اين روند ما ادامه داشته باشد.
وي تصريح كرد: تيم ملي ما با اين پيروزي پتانسيل هاي خود را براي صعود به جام جهاني نشان داد و اميدوارم تيم ملي كشورمان را در جام جهاني ببينيم.
وي اظهار داشت: تفكرات حرفه اي كي روش در تيم ملي ما به خوبي ديده مي شود و اين مربي تاثير مثبتي در تيم ايران داشته است.
9118/1647

.................................................

Majid jallali's Assesment;
........
مجید جلالی در گفت*و*گو با ایلنا:

سال*ها تیم ملی را اینقدر آماده ندیده بودم

.................................................. .............................................
What is appear to be CQ's work so far..
.....
1-Lack of hashieh,and peace with media.
2-Bringing many new talents,obviously based on his own judgements.
3-Appearance of gaining the players' trust.
4-new tachtical implementations...such as midfield smoother transfers to offense,...and attacks down through the middle ( as oppose to long time taking the ball to the corner and cross ),..Long distance shots on opponant's goal,.....more attacking defense ( all 4 defensive players involment in attacks ),.....etc,etc..
5-No promises.
.......
It may be soon to judge CQ, as we and him both need time.....but so far so good !

[Babak agha]

Perhaps only in Iran, and in the mind of Iranians, a DM shouldn't build up the game and only needs to give "safe passes".

In other countries even defenders are judged on their build up qualities, through passes and crosses (which neku almost lack in every game recently).

Neku isn't even the type of Nigel de Jong or Gatusso, with rough physical play. Hell even Karimi has more slidings and interseptions in a game compared to neku recently.

And even de Jong is being replaced by van der Vaart & Strootman, because he can't build up and plays "safe passes".

All of the good DM of today can play through passes, build up game, and join the attack next to defending (Xabi Alonso, Toure, Meireles, Busquet, etc etc.)

Neku plays weak pure and simple. Especially if you concider the fact that he used to have pin point crosses, could slow or rush the game when needed, created a lot of opportunities for the forwards and joined the attack once in awhile, just a couple years ago.

[maij]

Perhaps only in Iran, and in the mind of Iranians, a DM shouldn't build up the game and only needs to give "safe passes".

In other countries even defenders are judged on their build up qualities, through passes and crosses (which neku almost lack in every game recently).

Neku isn't even the type of Nigel de Jong or Gatusso, with rough physical play. Hell even Karimi has more slidings and interseptions in a game compared to neku recently.

And even de Jong is being replaced by van der Vaart & Strootman, because he can't build up and plays "safe passes".

All of the good DM of today can play through passes, build up game, and join the attack next to defending (Xabi Alonso, Toure, Meireles, Busquet, etc etc.)

Neku plays weak pure and simple. Especially if you concider the fact that he used to have pin point crosses, could slow or rush the game when needed, created a lot of opportunities for the forwards and joined the attack once in awhile, just a couple years ago.

Good points.

Just to put the records straight , the term DM (Defensive Midfielder) is not used anymore , at least NOT in England and with English commentators. The new term is "Holding Midfielder"

I am not fully aware on the background and reasons for such title change, but some of what you mentioned here , is quite relevant in such title change and could form some of the reasons behind it.

Yes, a holding midfielders' job is not to simply square passes to his teammates but a hell of a lot of things more including scoring. I witness these guys tens of times every week in the European leagues. Anyway , I do not wish to prolong the discussion as it is perfectly clear what the roles are , notwithstanding specific instructions by the individual coaches addressing specific situations (like one player short in either teams)

About Nekounam. I have a feeling that he might have not recovered fully or if he has , there is always that psychological hurdle that he needs to pass and that is "the fear of re-occurring injury". That might have mellowed him and resulted in his cautious approach during Bahrain game. Saying that , I still stand firm that his performance was quite modest and short of aspiration.

[maij]

Jalla Talebi's assesment

..........

ايران - بحرين /22
طالبي: رشد تاكتيكي تيم ملي ايران تحسين برانگيز است
تهران - سرمربي تيم ملي فوتبال ايران در جام جهاني 1998 فرانسه معتقد است كه تيم ملي كشورمان رشد تاكتيكي چشمگيري كرده است.


جلال طالبي سه شنبه شب در گفت و گو با خبرنگار ورزشي ايرنا، افزود: تيم ملي بحرين در ديدار مقابل ايران حرفي براي گفتن نداشت و بازيكنان ما در تمام سطوح بازي برتر از حريف بودند.
وي ادامه داد: تيم بحرين در ديدار با ما هيچ حرفي براي گفتن نداشت و بازيكنان ما نگذاشتند آنها تاكتيك هاي خود را در زمين پياده كنند.
سرمربي اسبق تيم ملي فوتبال ايران گفت: پيشرفت بازيكنان تيم ملي كشورمان در اين ديدار بسيار تحسين بر انگيز بود و اميدوارم اين روند ما ادامه داشته باشد.
وي تصريح كرد: تيم ملي ما با اين پيروزي پتانسيل هاي خود را براي صعود به جام جهاني نشان داد و اميدوارم تيم ملي كشورمان را در جام جهاني ببينيم.
وي اظهار داشت: تفكرات حرفه اي كي روش در تيم ملي ما به خوبي ديده مي شود و اين مربي تاثير مثبتي در تيم ايران داشته است.
9118/1647

.................................................

Majid jallali's Assesment;
........
مجید جلالی در گفت*و*گو با ایلنا:

سال*ها تیم ملی را اینقدر آماده ندیده بودم

.................................................. .............................................
What is appear to be CQ's work so far..
.....
1-Lack of hashieh,and peace with media.
2-Bringing many new talents,obviously based on his own judgements.
3-Appearance of gaining the players' trust.
4-new tachtical implementations...such as midfield smoother transfers to offense,...and attacks down through the middle ( as oppose to long time taking the ball to the corner and cross ),..Long distance shots on opponant's goal,.....more attacking defense ( all 4 defensive players involment in attacks ),.....etc,etc..
5-No promises.
.......
It may be soon to judge CQ, as we and him both need time.....but so far so good !

I don't know which new talents or debutant Quieroz has brought in the team , perhaps you could remind us , but something that really caught my eyes in Bahrain game is the amount of possession and inter-passing that the Boyz went through in the whole match.

There is nothing I loathe about a team more than when the players try to send high balls (route one) or get rid of the ball in anyway they can. Also add to this list , when a player takes far too much time to pass the ball or act upon it. OK , we did see some unnecessary ball holding , but not significantly to screw things up.

Team Melli seems to play the modern passing game , Arsenal and Barcelona style. Keep the ball amongst your team mates , open up the opposition , make them chase shadows , tire them out......AAhhh...that is my joy in watching a team. CQ is obviously an advocate of such football and I dare to say that he is going to build on it and subsequently we see a very jelled and solid team and hopefully less of Aghili's crazy long range , Hail Mary , passes.

[Babak agha]

I use DM because it's shorter to write, people recognize it (HM wouldn't be recognized by everyone, and it's used in FIFA games

There is a difference between a DM and a HM (at least in Dutch terminology and players responsibility)

A DM is purely defensive minded, a la de Jong. He is there for hard tackels and physical playes. A holding Midfielder is a playmaker playing closer to the defense. Like Schweinstiger, Xabi Alonso, the old Neku, van Bomel, Pirlo, Essien, Toure, Barry, Meireles etc.

There aren't that many "real" DM in modern football. Most teams use holding midfielders who next to defending can buildup the game and dictate the pace of it.

[RaginG Inferno]

I am speculating , that you are also speculating on Nekounam's role.

You know, that's a very reasonable point. It also highlights the fundamental reason for our disagreement.

I have interpreted Neku's role a little differently to yours - which makes our assessments different...they are not based on the same criteria.


In any case, I felt that he could have played better. However, I was very satisfied with his safe play which kept possession with Iran, and didn't allow Bahrain to form any attacks. I didn't feel that he needed to be adventurous either, given our numerical advantage.

[Hadi]

i would not over analyze Nekonam's performance in this match
the opposition was just too weak to give us any useful analysis.

Also I am sure Carlos had a whole different tactical approach to the match but the whole picture changed when Bahrain were down to ten men.

Probably the team was supposed to play a controlled game in the first half with Nekonam a deep Defensive Mid. role and a simple ball distributer but when Bahrain went down to 10 men and were playing so weak, maybe he could have upped his pace a little and played a bit more forward.

[zzgloo]

I don't know which new talents or debutant Quieroz has brought in the team , perhaps you could remind us , but something that really caught my eyes in Bahrain game is the amount of possession and inter-passing that the Boyz went through in the whole match.

There is nothing I loathe about a team more than when the players try to send high balls (route one) or get rid of the ball in anyway they can. Also add to this list , when a player takes far too much time to pass the ball or act upon it. OK , we did see some unnecessary ball holding , but not significantly to screw things up.

Team Melli seems to play the modern passing game , Arsenal and Barcelona style. Keep the ball amongst your team mates , open up the opposition , make them chase shadows , tire them out......AAhhh...that is my joy in watching a team. CQ is obviously an advocate of such football and I dare to say that he is going to build on it and subsequently we see a very jelled and solid team and hopefully less of Aghili's crazy long range , Hail Mary , passes.

I agree with your technical observation.....
As for new players, it seems on each of TM games, there is one new face that has never played for TM...not just for the bench,but on the field starting......I do not even remember thier names....this time was the guy with goat beard.....there was maziar Zare last time, and then our new left back......etc,etc......many first timers...not just getting invited, but also starting the game.

[Babak agha]

Hadi jan,

Especially in a game like last one you should zoom in on the performance of Neku.

We all know that Neku isn't a master tackler, a rough physical player, nor is he fast enough to be the interceptor. So he isn't the pure defensive midfielder like de Jong, Diara etc. where you can forget the "safe" passes in favor of good defending.

He is there to dictate the game, and start the attacking game of TM, especially since our CBs are not capable of doing that. If Aghili and Hosseini keep playing the "safe" pass to eachother, the LB, RB, and the DM, then we can't complain too much a this is TM and not Holland, Spain, etc. But when the fisrst half of your team lacks creativity then you have a problem.

It means that the second half of your team (from the AM to ST) has to both buildup the game and finish the attack, which is not realistics, especially for 90 min. And the lack of creativity and ability of building up a forward play (throu the center) is obvious in TM, as the AM and the forwards come to collect the ball instead of thinking about positioning themselves for a run.

And if Neku can't perform well against a 10 men team, by distributing the ball, dictating the pace of the game, swapping the side where the forward rushes take place by crosses etc, then he won't be able to do it against better teams with 11 players who actually pressurize you. Then he definitely will keep playing the "safe" passes.

Furthermore, who are we kidding? This isn't the first "bad" (at least below his potential) game by Neku. He's only lucky that he scores often (only from corners, and free kicks. Which Hosseini and Aghili cam too) which masks his poor performances.

[maij]

You know, that's a very reasonable point. It also highlights the fundamental reason for our disagreement.

I have interpreted Neku's role a little differently to yours - which makes our assessments different...they are not based on the same criteria.


In any case, I felt that he could have played better. However, I was very satisfied with his safe play which kept possession with Iran, and didn't allow Bahrain to form any attacks. I didn't feel that he needed to be adventurous either, given our numerical advantage.

it is interesting to debate Nekounam's role and performance as it takes me back to the Asian Cup days in Doha . We had several round-table ( tables full of foods and drinks) debates in the media centers amongst the Iranian media personnel about the players including Javad. Like one expects , there were differing opinions but the majority felt that Javad could do better. There was one exception of an extreme viewpoint by one journalist who was the editor-in-chief of a major Iran daily sport newspaper. His comments are not printable , sufffuce to say that it was not complementary at all towards Nekounam.

I am personally not satisfied with Nekounam. I am not talking this match against Bahrain , of course , but series of matches. However , as a fan there is little than we can do or say about it. I just hope that whatever hinders Nekounam to play towards his potential , is addressed and resolved by a shrewd man like CQ.
I am also not worried abou Nekounam not being able to play, as the midfield is the richest of all the lines in Team Melli and there are quite a few options available.


Last but not least , I fundementely differ with you on the concept of "Safe play". This term is used when a team is playing against a stronger * better opposition , and you are leading by a 1 goal margin and want to waste time without grass-rolling. Else safe square passing can be carried out by thousands of players in the league , there is no specialty or skill in that. Why should Nekounam occupy a place for safe passing?

[RaginG Inferno]

it is interesting to debate Nekounam's role and performance as it takes me back to the Asian Cup days in Doha . We had several round-table ( tables full of foods and drinks) debates in the media centers amongst the Iranian media personnel about the players including Javad. Like one expects , there were differing opinions but the majority felt that Javad could do better. There was one exception of an extreme viewpoint by one journalist who was the editor-in-chief of a major Iran daily sport newspaper. His comments are not printable , sufffuce to say that it was not complementary at all towards Nekounam.

I am personally not satisfied with Nekounam. I am not talking this match against Bahrain , of course , but series of matches. However , as a fan there is little than we can do or say about it. I just hope that whatever hinders Nekounam to play towards his potential , is addressed and resolved by a shrewd man like CQ.
I am also not worried abou Nekounam not being able to play, as the midfield is the richest of all the lines in Team Melli and there are quite a few options available.


Last but not least , I fundementely differ with you on the concept of "Safe play". This term is used when a team is playing against a stronger * better opposition , and you are leading by a 1 goal margin and want to waste time without grass-rolling. Else safe square passing can be carried out by thousands of players in the league , there is no specialty or skill in that. Why should Nekounam occupy a place for safe passing?

I think you're concentrating a little too much on your unhappinesss with his 'safe passing' without considering his other positive attributes.

He also has excellent positioning. He knows when to fall back, he knows when to stay forward, he knows when to track a player, he knows when to tackle. It's really difficult to observe when you're not in the stadium, but he is so smart off the ball which makes his contribution seem effortless. I think the game against Qatar really showed that - our midfield seemed significantly weaker in controlling possession.

He also made some excellent switches of play with impressive accuracy. He has that vision and accuracy with the long ball that is unique amongst Iranian players/

I do agree that his approach was a little too cautious on a few occasions, but I am happy with how he played overall.

Anyway, it's certainly something to keep an eye on over the next few games.

[Doctor DOOM]

I think we all at least, agree he is a very good players. but like the rest of the players, not indispensable or irreplaceable. EVERY SINGLE player in TM is replaceable .... maybe with the exception of rahmati & hosseini ... perhaps.


the only thing imo is he shdnt be given the task of distributing the ball. he simply is not as imaginative and creative as a playmaker or distributor ought to be. hopefully with the return of hadadifar, he can take over this role, leaving nekounam to concentrate on what he does best.

.... which raises another major problem; whom to sacrifice for hadadifar. ando seems to have hit a high note and is doing well. karimi is a crowd favorite and he seems to be doing well too (given enough rest time between games). quite a dilemma for CQ

and that's what most iranian coaches have faced. an embarrassment of riches in the midfield