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**Doctor DOOM** · 07-17-2012, 08:47 AM

grading iranian coaches is a tough thing, bahram jan.

for me, mere winning of the league is not the ONLY criteria. it is an important one, nevertheless. but there are other factors that matter too.

factors like the kind of players a club is "allowed" to have. yes, "allowed", as almost all our clubs are gov supported and it depends on HOW MUCH support they are allotted. just the two pp and ss receive the bulk of gov support. no matter how they screw up season after season. you'd think after becoming 12th ranked team, they would at least be admonished and shown that doesnt please their benefactors. Nooooo! they receive 10 times more backing after that fiasco!

or how Zob Ahan was actually and ironically PUNISHED for their unprecedented success in asia in the immediate season when all their funding was pulled and they became so weak they really struggled to stay in top 10!

so one major factor is how much support and backing the clubs receive to get better players which has a direct impact on how successful they become.

the second thing is the kind of infrastructure & youth system each club has. it has a direct proportion to the success of a club.

so you may get a mediocre coach for a club jam-packed with stars, money and support and may reach higher than what he is capable of (mazloomi winning the hazfi and getting second rank in IPL), while a better coach may be restricted to a mediocre club with mediocre players and less support and eventually may not reach levels that he truly deserves (ebrahimzadeh, jalali, ... etc)

ever wondered if GN would reach this level and win championships if he had a mediocre squad and facilities? no need to imagine. he was at Mes and while they did better than their previous season, they didnt win anything (hazfi or IPL) and at best reached 4th or 5th (if I'm not mistaken). although they did have a lot of funds and money.
he also didnt exactly set the world on fire at ss-ahvaz.

so how does one rank coaches? obviously it shd be multi-factorial.

I'd say coaches like ebrahimzadeh (mainly for the way his teams play), Jalali (for his insistence on development of potential stars) rank very high for me.
after that, I think Taghavi (of saipa) shows good promise. So does Mansourian (although he may need more time to cement his worth).
GN has won many trophies and I cant discount him just on squads and money available.
Faraki, surprisingly did well this season. but consistency is very important. lets see if he can repeat his success at foolad too. if he does, then he shd be included in this list. Same thing can be said for Veisi (of saba and now, peykan). if he repeats his feat this season, then he deserves to be placed in top 5 vatani ones.
Note that neither Faraki nor veisi had any high profile stars (unlike ss and pp and some others like traktorsazi) and yet reached quite high in rankings. this makes their efforts even more admirable.

Ranking imo:
1- Ebrahimzadeh
2- Jalali
3- GN

among foreign coaches:
1- Krancjear
2- Bonacic (horrible attitude. but mostly gets the results. Mes, sepahan and even his first stint at foolad before they won the league)
3- Denizli (more for the style of football he employs. not necessarily his success in winning anything. I'm miffed how he just ups and leaves clubs, btw. makes him unreliable)

**zzgloo** · 07-17-2012, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

so one major factor is how much support and backing the clubs receive to get better players which has a direct impact on how successful they become.

the second thing is the kind of infrastructure & youth system each club has. it has a direct proportion to the success of a club.

so you may get a mediocre coach for a club jam-packed with stars, money and support and may reach higher than what he is capable of (mazloomi winning the hazfi and getting second rank in IPL), while a better coach may be restricted to a mediocre club with mediocre players and less support and eventually may not reach levels that he truly deserves (ebrahimzadeh, jalali, ... etc)

Ranking imo:
1- Ebrahimzadeh
2- Jalali
3- GN

among foreign coaches:
1- Krancjear
2- Bonacic
3- Denizli

Well said payman jaan.....
and as you said, if coaches like faraki and veisi or taghavi show some consistancy,they may belong to the list....
I like to add,to your comment about the difference between " coaching better teams " and " Not so good teams ".....
There are some coaches,like GN,who are more of a "manager " and " tactician "...and there are coaches who are more of a " Teacher "..like Jalali.....
Those who teach.. .....require " time "..and can not be as effective,if they are rushed....
and those who use " Tactics " ,can only be effective,in new enviroments,and short term changes...and perhaps can not sustain success,and need to keep changing clubs.

**St_Mark** · 07-19-2012, 07:24 AM

GN is by far best Iranian coach in recent years.

This year he will compete with much better coaches.

**Doctor DOOM** · 07-19-2012, 10:48 AM

^ but you gotta admit having superior squads and facilities (in case of sepahan) or general support among media and gov't (in case of ss) does tilt the balance in favor of such teams even if the coach is a mediocre one.

I agree GN is a good coach. there's no doubt in that.
but is he the BEST? cant confirm this.
maybe jalali or ebrahimzadeh given his squads in ss or sepahan would have done the same or even a step better.
his record with lesser teams isnt all that hot. that's why I tend to hold off crowning him the "BEST" iranian coach

**St_Mark** · 07-19-2012, 07:02 PM

^

Having superior squads & facilities... are very helpful but should not be used to lessen capabilities of one who have them.
Leaving aside conspiracies, mafia.... there is a good reason teams who seek championship demand him more than Jalali, Ebrahimzadeh.... It is precisely GN ability to deal with issues, problems associate with such teams. Jalali, Ebrahimzadeh has not yet shown abilities to deal with high profile teams, their inner circles, ability to face off on equal basis with club ranks and files, CEO and higher ups like GN.
It is part of his appeal and ability to force club to build a team the way he desire, to pay for more expensive players.... Ebrahimzadeh could not face off with like of Ashtiani of Esteghlal, Hosseini of Sepahan, and Jafari of Tractor ( often interfere )the way GN can.

There is no other Iranian coach with such abilities and that is part of his head coaching job.

In a different scale when Queiroz can demand from IFF things that never been done before it has to do with his appeal, character, confidence and abilities. Not all TM coaches could do that... (Young GN few years back could not do that).

It is unfair not consider such abilities and focus on strong squads as these two are totally independent.

It is unfair to expect a coach withfew championship to accept coaching job with teams with no chance of championship to proof a point. It is not as he has not worked with lower rank team, h did well with Esteghlal Ahwaz helping them to IPL in his first season.
Credit to him among his achievement best offense in 3 years in the row with 3 different teams he has coached and he did not always had best forwards ( Tractor Sazi).

Besides using stats which does not tell it all, all other comparisons are subjective, heavily affected by personal opinion and biases, including mine.

Jalali is not coaching, but GN & Ebrahimzadeh are going to be tested this year again . GN will be compare with coaches of Sepahan, Persepolis and Tractor and Ebrahimzadeh with Faraki's last year record with Naft.

hopefully we can compare notes then.

**zzgloo** · 07-20-2012, 09:08 AM

I catagoricaly dislike all Iranian coaches....as they have nothing more to teach after a year of coaching, and only manage tactical plays ,instead of teaching ,and making better players.I know,no Iranian player who has been developed by a coach..as Iranian players are " Home grown "...although,I have lot of examples of players being waisted by the coaches.....
BUT...." Aadam ,Az Naalaaji...be Gorbeh Migeh ,Khaanoom Baaji "".....and that is why, GN may be the best,considering him being smarter of the bounch, and more of a problem solver,and Tactician.

**maij** · 07-22-2012, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

^ but you gotta admit having superior squads and facilities (in case of sepahan) or general support among media and gov't (in case of ss) does tilt the balance in favor of such teams even if the coach is a mediocre one.

I agree GN is a good coach. there's no doubt in that.
but is he the BEST? cant confirm this.
maybe jalali or ebrahimzadeh given his squads in ss or sepahan would have done the same or even a step better.
his record with lesser teams isnt all that hot. that's why I tend to hold off crowning him the "BEST" iranian coach

Having a superior squad , facilities and resources , are NOT synonymous with success and winning championships. There are enough examples round the world to confirm that.

The beauty of football as it stands is that there no NO scientific formula that anyone can copy from one team and then paste it somewhere else and expects same level of success. By all means , and to a large extent , you need a combination of quality players , resources and good coaches to excel , but NOT always and failures to achieve the objectives with the right combinations are quite common in football.

I also agree that judging the performance of a coach , is really a difficult task for us the fans. We can only look at the results and achievement and decide. Whether this is the right method , is really questionable. I know that you are a very avid fan of Majid Jalali. In my opinion , he seems to be quite knowledgeable when he speaks , offers accurate analysis and is quite reasonable in dealing with the outside world, But his success and achievements is nowhere near Ghalenoei , who admittedly has some professional behavior issues ( some might call it ethical issues)

Why has Jalali not reached his potential ? perhaps , he never really got the real opportunity that Ghalenoei had. Perhaps he falls is short in the "Relationship with the Hierarchy" department ?...very difficult to pinpoint , in all honesty.

Saying all that..... I think that Amir Ghalenoei is the best of f the lot , although not perfect and is spite of his faults.

BTW: Liked your analysis in post # 2

**Keano** · 07-22-2012, 08:21 PM

This year gotta be the most intense season of battle of coaches, I believe this season has been the most outstanding year as far as decent club coaches in the history of our football league. This surely will have a positive impact on TM and overall our football, be it the tactical and technical aspects of it or disciplinary and ethical behavior of these reputable foreign coaches who may inject into our ill football!

Back on topic, While Qalenoei is definitely the most decorated and accomplished domestic coach ever, but to me personally it takes more than just results for any coach to prove themselves as a full package and "Popular" coaches. A clear example to explain my point is a decent coach like Bonacic, it's hard for us to deny his merits and credentials, however we all have seen how he has repeatedly been kicked out of several clubs in Iran and other countries, due to some disciplinary and bizarre issues unrelated to the technical perspectives of football.

Mr. Ebrahimzadeh IMHO come next to GN as the second best Iranian coach, his only shortcoming and downfall is his too calm personality, we have seen how this characteristics of him has been taken for granted and advantage of by some of his star players at Zobahan in the previous seasons, that's an area he needs to work on and improve for sure.

**Doctor DOOM** · 07-23-2012, 07:44 AM

Thanks majid jan.
I, too, think jalali is a very knowledgable coach with heavy leaning towards theoretian and tactical side of coaching tasks. I guess his shortcoming is actually in dealing with some real-time individual-based issues.
But he hasnt been given a squad like sepahan, pp or ss or .. to show how far he can go with such a squad. his squads have always been mediocre and mid-table potentials at best. even then, he won the league with Paas and won the hazfi with Saba. so we know he can go the distance if given the right tools.

keano jan, contrary to what you started with "This year gotta be the most intense season of battle of coaches...", I think given the way the transfer period went and how rooyanian and fatolahzadeh behaved with impunity (in relation to star player hiring) and irresponsibly (in relation to money and budget), this season will be the most IMBALANCED season in a very long time. more like the HAVES and the HAVE-NOTS.

yes, when we have 80-85% of fans being a supporter of either ss or pp, it is natural they wouldnt notice this or care or ... . but that doesnt mean it isnt true.
the way these two clubs went by their hirings and money spending, they have caused a cleaving between the rest of the teams (with exception of sepahan, which is a unique sample) and them.
it resembles something like the spanish la liga where the two teams of barca and real have all the money, support, star players, ... and then there is the other 18 teams who will be vying for third place onward. EXCEPT there's a difference. the similarities are only in the amount of money and support the two clubs enjoy ... AND NOT IN TERMS OF QUALITY.
God, no. PP and SS will have to dream of such a chasm in quality between themselves and the rest.

and how enjoyable it will be to watch these two stumble and fall (and they WILL stumble & fall, I assure you) during the season against teams that didnt receive even a FRACTION of their support or budget. Oh how gloriously funny it will be to watch these two squirm after dropping points that they shd not be dropping by any means. I cant remember, but in an interview the coach of anther club (of the other 16) said they cant be even APPROACHING any good players as long as pp and ss havent finished their list. they are all waiting for pp and ss to finish their list and then see what's left for the rest!!

no my friend. given how these two have been spoiled by the STB and govt, I doubt it is going to be the kind of intensity that you expect.

my only hope is since sepahan behaved so rationally and logically (except letting ahmadi go), and their tradition of sensible team management, they will be the wild card dealing some death blows to both these "noor chashmi"s.
but that's not going to be their (ss & pp) only losses. such teams WILL implode too.

**St_Mark** · 07-23-2012, 08:20 AM

^^

Majid Jalali has done nothing in recent years to deserve given opportunity to coach team like Sepahan.

طوري حرف مي‏زنند که انگار بهترين مربيان دنيا هستند. اين وسط تلويزيون هم مقصر است. مربي را به تلويزيون مي آورند تا از مورينيو و کاپلو ايراد بگيرد، مدير هم فکر مي کند او چيزي بلد است و اينقدر پول مي دهد. طرف فولاد را سيزدهم کرده مي گويند در عوض بومي بوديم! خب مگر فولاد با يک تيم بومي قهرمان ليگ نشد؟
محمد دادکان رييس سابق فدراسيون فوتبال

**zzgloo** · 07-23-2012, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

and how enjoyable it will be to watch these two stumble and fall (and they WILL stumble & fall, I assure you) during the season against teams that didnt receive even a FRACTION of their support or budget. Oh how gloriously funny it will be to watch these two squirm after dropping points that they shd not be dropping by any means. I cant remember, but in an interview the coach of anther club (of the other 16) said they cant be even APPROACHING any good players as long as pp and ss havent finished their list. they are all waiting for pp and ss to finish their list and then see what's left for the rest!!
.

I also think,PP & SS will stumble....On the pitch is different than " on the paper ".
Payman jaan..the last point you made in veryimportant.as SS & PP monopolize.
they operate out of Football enviroment in IRAN...we as the fans, should only focus on what I call " LWR&B " ( League without Red & Blue ) ,if we want to know and judge our own true football...

**Doctor DOOM** · 07-23-2012, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by St_Mark View Post

^^

Majid Jalali has done nothing in recent years to deserve given opportunity to coach team like Sepahan.

neither has someone like Arsen Wenger. is he useless too? last thing he'd won was 5-6 years back and nothing ever since.

it's a catch-22 or vicious cycle where for X to make a name is to win a trophy, for that he shd be given the right tools. but the right tools are never given to his teams, so he hardly gets a chance to win trophies, ... and so on and on.

I think keano said it correctly. the jalalis and ebrahimzadehs of the world seem to be too quiet and shy to make a spectacle out of themselves in front of the media. and in Iran, the more high profile you are, the more saught after you'll be.
they're too gentle for their own good, I guess

**St_Mark** · 07-24-2012, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Doctor DOOM View Post

neither has someone like Arsen Wenger. is he useless too? last thing he'd won was 5-6 years back and nothing ever since.
it's a catch-22 or vicious cycle where for X to make a name is to win a trophy, for that he shd be given the right tools. but the right tools are never given to his teams, so he hardly gets a chance to win trophies, ... and so on and on.
I think keano said it correctly. the jalalis and ebrahimzadehs of the world seem to be too quiet and shy to make a spectacle out of themselves in front of the media. and in Iran, the more high profile you are, the more saught after you'll be.
they're too gentle for their own good, I guess

Dear:
Just because some very good coaches failed sometimes, does not means Jalali belong to that circle.
Last season his team ranked 14th under fajr, Rahahan, Peykan, Damash , Naft...
& that was his 2nd season with Foulad.
Before Failure in Foulad he was chased out of Esteghlal Ahwaz & Shahid Ghandi
Now he is unemployed
Considering , (Arguably ) Foulad has better support system, organization,, facility , with good squad , without side issues or financial issues( than Rahahan, Fajr, Damash...)why a goodclub like Sepahan want someone like Jalali ?

**Doctor DOOM** · 07-24-2012, 01:28 PM

jalali's recent tenure 1.5 seasons at foolad has a lot of stories behind it.

aside from making this mediocre, starless team 6th in the league when by 12th game into the season they were dead-last with (I think 1-2 points only) - no thanks to bonacic, what the mafia did to him(last season's handball-turned-red card in beginning of their game vs. pp by Hamoudi, who didnt have even a single red card the whole season or at best 1-2 yellows!) , how luck played a great deal in his final standing (foolad & truckload of missed penalties often reaching 15-16 per season ... which could easily mean at least 7-8 points), a few ppl in management voting against him, .. etc etc had a big say where his team suddenly dropped from the top 10 (I think they were 8th or so) to 14th in the span of 8 final weeks.

as much as I say he is not the greatest coach we've ever had, he and coaches like him have far more positive impact on IRANIAN football than the likes of GN and co. (who are "hazeri-khor" and "moft-khor" who are too scared to actually try development and initiation of youth).
simply because they believe in our youth and youth development. and youth development needs time and patience in club management.
it is not the fault of jalali's and ppl like him that most our clubs, especially the affluent ones dont have the balls or guts to actually try youth development.

as for sepahan, they did bring a very decent coach like Kranjear. why shd they get rid of him and hire jalali? at what point was jalali available while sepahan was looking for a coach? I'm not saying they would hire him. but the fact is that we just dont know.

third, when jalali was given a half-decent roster, he did prove himself by winning the league championship with Paas (I think youngsters like nekounam, borhani, ... were among its players) and then with Saba (daei, yahya, ...). so given the right tools and with management's support, chances of him succeeding is more than him failing.

bottomline is we can choose to have tunnel vision and look only for cups and trophies or we can have a wider peripheral vision which sees and assesses each situation individually.
mere looking for trophies doesnt say much about a coach as the arsen wenger example truly exemplifies this matter

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