IRAN - UZBEKISTAN - WCQ (Nov 14th)

[Doctor DOOM]

^ well, as far as "improvement of football" objective is concerned with his appointment of under-qualified coaches for various youth and national team levels (mohamadi, namazi, ...) I think he has dropped the ball.
then his insistence on eliminating the Hazfi cup is another mistake (that is HALF rectified only recently) which would have meant a lowered and elimination of any drive for teams and clubs outside IPL, also missing out on potential youth and omid level talent.

as for the other objective (WC qualification), we see an attempt in dilution and excuse-making already getting udner way. I cant imagine what this machine will throw up if god forbid we draw with qatar!

[Martin-Reza]

How are you going to measure "improvement of football"? You can't set a target you cannot measure. So that is definitely not a target and also not the job of the national team coach but of IFF management.

I guess what you mean is improvement of the senior national team's performances, but then again, not measurable, so certainly not a target. His job certainly is not to satisfy DD with the performances and lineups, which is not an objective requirement anyone could fulfill.

The target only is WCQ and that happens with 11-14 points & successful playoffs depending on the other games results and directly with 13-16 points depending on the other results.

So basically the in average one can say in a range of 11-16 points we are still in contention, and that in average is like 2-3 points more than last time around (plus playoff as said).

Can you please stop this annoying dumb acting as if you didn't understand the point and as if anyone would claim his contract would say 13 points is fine?! Even having a different opinion doesn't mean you need to kill off every discussion by taking out one element of a posting and completely misinterpreting it intentionally.

[KeonKish]

look... I dont think we should fire him, but he HAS underperformed... we will have to see what awaits us...

[Doctor DOOM]

^^ LOL.

more lowering of standards!
now, we're supposed to accept 11 points? really? so now we're supposed to be happy with 4 more points?
hahaha.
what's next? we shd bend and say thank you for getting us 7 points out of 5 games?


you do know even if we get 12 we're pretty much out (barring some freak accident like lebanon & qatar beating skorea or uzbeks at their home). but now, you're talking about 11? we're still in trouble even if we get 14 points and have to beg qatar or lebanon to do the improbable. you're trying to push "11 points"?????

why not come out and say we must be grateful to CQ even if he screws up one of the easiest WC qualifiers we've ever had? always in service of the "person" than the team or nation. this shows where people's priorities lie.

[Martin-Reza]

^ I'd rather be grateful if you stopped hijacking F+ with your constant nagging and fan-wisdomes.

In the end we want to go to WC and if we do that with 11 points and a playoff route via Iraq and Colombia for instance, I won't complain (yes, it is possible not to complain about everything).

[zzgloo]

The Elephant in the Room .....
Due to manyreasons,particularly our political system in last 35 years......Iranian football,even though invested havily,has gone back ward...
Jordan
Oman
Qatar
bahrain
and many other Arab nations ( not much saudis ),have improve alot...we see that in thier results,and we see that in the waythey play..
Japan,Australia, and South Korea ...are no longer in our league
And now...
Uzbakistan.....which , fare and squre have out played us..both in thier home, and in our home....
...................
There no legioners ( a couple forign born newly discovered,but not exported talent)
Not even Arab leagues are interested in our domestic talents.
domestic coaches ,simply suck !
.................................................. . our currant TM...specialy without the Goochi and Dejagah,( who are forign born and notexported legioners ) are far weaker than the TM of 10 years ago....
and that is true about any other team in Asia .

[Doctor DOOM]

^
forgive me if I dont share your lack of faith in players like khalatbari, heidari, pouladi, .... etc etc etc. I think we DO have enugh talent to beat qatar and uzbekistan in azadi and not even draw, let alone lose to the likes of lebanon.


but I agree with other nations improving
I also agree with our infrastructure being bad or horrible or deficient
I also agree with us not being able to get good friendlies due to political, monetary, ... whatever reasons
I agree we dont have good pitches, no good management, no good stadiums, no good foundation for whatever
and a lot more.


but all that is irrelevant to what I have brought up here.
what's bad picthes and no money or stadium or &%$#$@$ got to do with using the wrong player or a defensive approach to a game we need to attack and score goals, or subbing the wrong player out?

if great pitches, money and stadiums were the deciding factors then UAE should have won the freaking world cup at least 3 times already. have they even reached the WC other than their fluke more than 2 decades ago?



naturally the mindless disciples will not agree as they think a coach is some superman brought from the heavens and simply cannot be wrong even if he says snow is black!!! I'm not even surprised to see lowering of standards and excuses to justify the f**k ups anymore.

but the question is for the rest of us who havent surrendered our minds to another human being and put IRAN as priority and not some chap (iranian or otherwise).

I'll leave the honorable duty of covering the arse of coaches who've been getting shitload of money to the corresponding propaganda machine.
for me, IRAN has always been the priority and whatever that helps it, I will back. whatever that impedes it, I will criticize. and yes, I will always want to move forward and get MORE and not stagnate.

[St_Mark]

There are methods of measuring quality, improvement… (Quantitative or otherwise) in sport and games.



***
As for Points needed.

Playoff-As said 11P is not sufficient for Third place and it depend on results of others matches.
Direct-13 Point is not sufficient for second place and it depend on results of others matches

There are 6 possibilities to end with 11P and 4 of those required not to lose in Korea. But if we lose to Qatar then at least a tie in Korea is a must to end even as a Third team , because Qatar only will need a tie in Uzbekistan and losing to Korea.

So 11 points is not enough to assure a third place

Q

L

K

P

P0

TP

0	1	3	4	7	11
0	3	1	4	7	11
1	0	3	4	7	11
1	3	0	4	7	11
3	0	1	4	7	11
3	1	0	4	7	11

There are only 3 possibilities to have 13 points,. Two required beating Korea in their home. ( unlikely in my opinion)

Q

L

K

P

P0

TP

0	3	3	6	7	13
3	0	3	6	7	13
3	3	0	6	7	13

If we have assumed Iran will defeat Both Qatar (A) and Lebanon (H) , same assumption should apply for Uzbek and with that they will end up with 14P.

For Iran to have 14 points there are only 3 possibilities and that required we defeat Qatar in Away game, and not losing in Korea l then we have to hope our GD is better than Uzbek and they lose in Korea..

1	3	3	7	7	14
3	1	3	7	7	14
3	3	1	7	7	14

At this point only guarantee mark is 16 point & short of that (14) is depend on other outcomes ( IFI).

I don’t now about everyone but my understanding and expectation was with a a good coach we should qualify as second team. In my book short of that is a failure by itself but if we make it still as a third team and beating Iraq and … all that jazz that will still do for me as a success .

Majority IPL coaches that have gone public so far believe TM under CQ has not played well so far .

There is no escape from this we all going to see what CQ and TM will do and where it lead us. Best way to judge is the upcoming result.

My prediction:
Uzbek will defeat Qatar and Lebanon for sure earning TP14 and if there is any team that can stop Korea it’s them and that is tall order ).
Iran has a good chance to make it 3^rd of group and after that… that is another adventure.
Queiroz will not survived if TM landed 3^rd place.

My hope :
7 points from next 3 games and high score against Lebanon with a prayer.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ aside from numbers and stats.
our friend martin here apparently hasnt even watched the team PLAY. anyone with an incling about how the game is played would notice how poorly we play football (except one and half games), how we lack proper tactics (I refuse to count bezan ziresh football as tactics) and how we allow the same mistakes to occur again and again and again and again and .... !!

I wish martin had bothered to actully watch a couple of TM games before he rose up to defend the coach and ask mundane questions like how do we assess whether the team has improved or not. there ARE other indications other than mere numbers too. but all that constitutes one to actually WATCH the game first.

[zzgloo]

^
forgive me if I dont share your lack of faith in players like khalatbari, heidari, pouladi, .... etc etc etc. I think we DO have enugh talent to beat qatar and uzbekistan in azadi and not even draw, let alone lose to the likes of lebanon.


but I agree with other nations improving
I also agree with our infrastructure being bad or horrible or deficient
I also agree with us not being able to get good friendlies due to political, monetary, ... whatever reasons
I agree we dont have good pitches, no good management, no good stadiums, no good foundation for whatever
and a lot more.


but all that is irrelevant to what I have brought up here.
what's bad picthes and no money or stadium or &%$#$@$ got to do with using the wrong player or a defensive approach to a game we need to attack and score goals, or subbing the wrong player out?

if great pitches, money and stadiums were the deciding factors then UAE should have won the freaking world cup at least 3 times already. have they even reached the WC other than their fluke more than 2 decades ago?



naturally the mindless disciples will not agree as they think a coach is some superman brought from the heavens and simply cannot be wrong even if he says snow is black!!! I'm not even surprised to see lowering of standards and excuses to justify the f**k ups anymore.

but the question is for the rest of us who havent surrendered our minds to another human being and put IRAN as priority and not some chap (iranian or otherwise).

I'll leave the honorable duty of covering the arse of coaches who've been getting shitload of money to the corresponding propaganda machine.
for me, IRAN has always been the priority and whatever that helps it, I will back. whatever that impedes it, I will criticize. and yes, I will always want to move forward and get MORE and not stagnate.

payman jaan....,the pitches, inferstructure, stediums..do not exist in Jordan ,lebanon,or uzbakistan either...and it is not just coaches who recieved " shit load " of money...so did players...particularly players who did not deserve it...or legioners who were ranked vcery low.....and players who have been burnt out...like mahdavikia,hashemians, and others....the money was so good, people like nekonam, do not want to waist time, and bust thier arse..in Europe...
...........
The system, over spent on football, just to keep you and I bussy...and not think about football..
and I do understand your point.....your point is that : " What Now ,should sit on our arses ? "......
But, I say......." why not " ?.....the football is going down..and we should not fool ourseleves.....like anything els in IRAN...
we should concentrate on what can be changed .

[Martin-Reza]

AW: IRAN - UZBEKISTAN - WCQ (Nov 14th)

^ aside from numbers and stats.
our friend martin here apparently hasnt even watched the team PLAY. anyone with an incling about how the game is played would notice how poorly we play football (except one and half games), how we lack proper tactics (I refuse to count bezan ziresh football as tactics) and how we allow the same mistakes to occur again and again and again and again and .... !!

I wish martin had bothered to actully watch a couple of TM games before he rose up to defend the coach and ask mundane questions like how do we assess whether the team has improved or not. there ARE other indications other than mere numbers too. but all that constitutes one to actually WATCH the game first.

Might be hard for you to accept, but your view on a game is not an objective judgement. It's ridiculous how important you consider yourself.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ and it's quite amazing how you think only I think team melli's performances have been sub par. It would really help if you actually looked around and read a few things (not fans only, but other football personalities, experts, and coaches, former TM players, ... ) about how poor the quality of our games were.
but then again, what has taught me for the past 10-12 years is that you'd rather "fall in line" with the coach than actually think for yourself or god forbid, doubt one ... even when he is visibly and vividly failing.

[Doctor DOOM]

brilliant article:

جمعه ٢٦ آبان ۱۳٩۱
آیا کی روش هنوز مربی بزرگی است؟

آیا کی روش هنوز مربی بزرگی است؟
کیوان کثیریان
در این یک سال و نیمی که کارلوس کی روش سکان مربیگری تیم ملی را به دست گرفته، دائما می گوییم و می شنویم که کی روش مربی بزرگی است و تنها اوست که می تواند ما را به جام جهانی ببرد. آنقدر دربرابر او خودباخته و ذوق زده رفتار کردیم که خودمان هم باورمان شده حتما تمام اشکال و ایرادها از بازیکنان و تماشاگران و رسانه ها و فدراسیون ماست وگرنه به کی روش بزرگ که اشکالی وارد نیست. مگر می شود او ایرادی هم داشته باشد؟ دائم او را ستودیم و تمام ایرادها را متوجه خودمان کردیم. اما یکبار نگفتیم که او در این گروه نسبتا آسان، چگونه و با چه نتایجی می خواهد مسیر جام جهانی را طی کند. آیا حالا اگر نتیجه نمی گیرد، لااقل خوب بازی می کند؟ آیا داریم از بازی تیم این مربی بزرگ لذت می بریم؟ آیا نشانه های بزرگی و پیشرفت را در تیم ملی می بینیم؟ آیا تاکتیک تیم ملی را درک می کنیم؟ اگر تاکتیکی هست و ما فوتبالدوستان نمی فهمیم و حتی کارشناسان متوجهش نمی شوند، آیا آمار و ارقام و نتایج تیم کی روش، خبر از برتری این تیم نسبت به رقبا می دهند؟

واقعا تعریف یک مربی بزرگ چیست؟ ملاک های بزرگی دقیقا کدامست؟ آیا یک مربی بزرگ بدون توجه به نتایجی که به دست می آورد، می تواند قضاوت شود؟ آیا نتایج و کارنامه گذشته یک مربی برای "بزرگ بودن و بزرگ ماندن" اش کفایت می کند؟ آیا بزرگ بودن یک صفت مادام العمر است؟ آیا نتایج غیر قابل قبول کارلوس کی روش خدشه ای بر بزرگ بودن و خوب بودن او وارد نخواهد کرد؟ آیا نتایج کسب شده از سوی یک مربی، معیار مناسبی برای قضاوت او نیست؟ حداقل این فاکتور نباید کنارعوامل دیگر مبنای قضاوت او قرار گیرد؟ آیا کسب نتایج ضعیف پی درپی، او را همچنان بزرگ نگه داشته است؟ آیا باخت بی سابقه به لبنان، دو برد خوشحال کننده مقابل کره و ازبکستان، که مسلماً و ابداً به لحاظ فنی حقمان نبود، یک باخت خانگی برابر ازبکستان و یک مساوی خانگی با قطر کارنامه مناسبی برای یک مربی بزرگ است؟ آیا تیم پرستاره ما - که از کلی لژیونر و دورگه و. . . سود می برد - دارد خوب بازی می کند؟ آیا "زور" کم تیم ملی ما که حتی به لبنان هم نمی رسد، برای رسیدن به جام جهانی کافی است؟
وقتی به انواع و اقسام خواست های منطقی و غیر منطقی کی روش نظیر تعطیلی های پیاپی لیگ، برگزار نشدن جام حذفی، احساس بی نیازی اش به دستیار ایرانی قوی روی نیمکت، بی اعتنایی به تعامل با مربیان لیگ و . . . تن می دهیم و او وقتش را به درگیری و نامه نگاری با هموطنش تلف می کند، آیا فکر بازخواست او هم هستیم؟ آیا از او پرسیده ایم که با وجود این همه لی لی که به لالایش گذاشته ایم، دنبه اش کو؟ آیا اصلا بلدیم بر کار یک مربی خارجی از نوع مثلا بزرگش نظارت کنیم؟ آیا بابت پولی که به او داده ایم و می دهیم، حق نظارت و بازخواست هم برای خود قایل هستیم؟ یا همچنان از موضع ضعف و خودباختگی با این مربی مثلا بزرگ برخورد می کنیم و در مقابل او کاملا تسلیمیم؟ آیا این نتایج ضعیف را که دارد جام جهانی را دور از دسترس می کند، تصادفی به حساب می آوریم؟ آیا از کی روش برای سه بازی باقیمانده توقع معجزه داریم؟ آیا توقع داریم او که نمی تواند قطر را در خانه ببرد، کره را در سئول گلباران کند؟ آیا او که زورش به لبنان نمی رسد، قرار است قطر را در خانه حریف ببرد؟ آیا کمی نباید احساس خوشباوری و ساده لوحی کنیم؟ آیا تیمی که با وجود این همه مهاجم، در پنج بازی تنها دوگل به ثمر
رسانده و زیبا هم بازی نمی کند، مشکل تاکتیکی ندارد؟ آیا با تمام اینها واقعا همچنان کی روش را مربی بزرگی می دانیم؟

اگر زمانی می گفتیم مشکل فدراسیون و فوتبال ملی ما آوردن یک مربی بزرگ خارجی برای تیم ملی است حالا به گمانم مشکل اصلی فوتبال
ما، چگونگی رفتار با یک مربی بزرگ خارجی و نظارت بر کار اوست.

[Paradigm]

The number 1 problem with the Iranian football in the last two years, has been the lack of competitive friendly matches, period.

[KeonKish]

^ it is true... that has been very bad for our football... no good measures of quality or lineups... we are always left guessing