Confounded 4-2-3-1; the core of our problems

[Doctor DOOM]

STRANDED alone up front in teams that usually lack true playmakers and have to rely on the occasional and INFREQUENT correct

[Martin-Reza]

4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-3-2-1...the differences in compactly played systems is mininmal. I have my doubts you in specific can even differ them, especially when executed by tactically such indisciplined teams like Iranians.

It really doesn't make a differnce. The problem is the formations you have in your head are not realistic and would be more sth like a 4-1-3-2, which you demand ever since 2005.

[zzgloo]

I have always thought,those formation numbers are over rated !!..... as for example...4-2-3-1 of one team is different than 4-2-3-1 of another...or it is different meaningss for different coaches...and it has diffrent meanings for different set of players.........

[Doctor DOOM]

^ exactly. that's why we shdnt think just because it works for a particular team or set of players, automatically it will work for us too.
it depends on the type of players you have. if you dont have the right players, no matter what you do, certain formations and strategies will not work. so coaches ought to base their strategies on the type of players they have and the nature of football in that particular region.

you cant go to russia and demand a highly technical football based on ball skills and flair. even if you are the best-est, most famous-est coach in the world. likewise, you cant go to uruguay and try to implement a british style of football. even if you are wngher, guardiola, ... (btw, if chelsea do manage to pull off the impossible and hire guardiola, they either have to change at least 16-17 of the squad players, or will face defeat)

with us, defensive football doesnt work as it is. now, if we're talking about short qualification campaigns, it is even more imperrative to make sure we place OFFENSE as our priority

[Prince of Fasa]

4-3-1-2 would be a great formation for Team Melli but the only problem is being able to make the players understand and work with the system

[Hadi]

lol our problem arent tactics and formations.

You put Yahya Golmohamadi in charge of Barcelona witha shitty 3-5-2 Tactic, the tezm will still perform at an acceptable level.

The failiure of simple passing, trapping and shooting cant be solved with formation discussions

[Doctor DOOM]

You put Yahya Golmohamadi in charge of Barcelona witha shitty 3-5-2 Tactic, the tezm will still perform at an acceptable level.

^ which proves my point exactly (I bet some ppl regret thanking it now ).

the more complex the tasks and formations, the less possibility of our half-amateurish players delivering them at optimal levels. when our players and our general system is behind the likes of germany and france and ... then it makes no sense to expect them to deliver and perform tasks that players brought up in TJOSE systems are used to.
that's why I advocate a morr simplified and straight forward 442

yes, many years fro now when our clubs adopt a PROPER development strategy and nurture the kind of players who are brought up with and are used to modern systems and teachings, and if we develop the right kind of players for each of these tasks/positions, then you can introduce and deploy all sorts of complex formations and systems.
until then, simplicity is key for our kind of football

[Paradigm]

Anyone can remember any other counter-attack goals?

[leviathan]

...........gk...........
..rb....cb....cb....lb..
........dm....dm........
..rm.......am.......lm..
...........cf.....
4-2-3-1
Apart from the fact that each individual player in this formation needs to have very specific attributes ,(for example CF needs to be tall and strong or fast to be able to keep the ball until wingers RM and LM come to his aid). there is the issue of transformation, I believe this system does not work for our team as this system requires to transform to 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 in defense mode and 4-3-3 /4-4-2 in attack mode..........Our players are stuck in 4-2-3-1 99% of the time therefore we do not score!!!! we have possession in the midfield as we have crowded it with 5 midfielders in perpetual 4-5-1 defensive mode, but we do not transform to attacking formation of 4-3-3 that this system requires (or even 4-4-2 for God sake!)

This is a good system but it is not for our players...........i have seen too many times Ansarifard or ashkane badbakht(or whoever)on his own up front...either not getting a pass or getting absolutely no support..........when are we going to wake up?

[Mansoor]

At the core of our goal scoring woes is the defensive 4-2-3-1 formation.

Actually, 4-2-3-1 can become very offensive formation, given you have the right players for it. It can transform to 4-2-4 during offense. It is the players that make the system defensive.

In case of Team Melli, we are playing 4-3-3, not 4-2-3-1. During offense, it is pure 4-2-1-3, with 2 forwards in wings and only one forward in the box. During defense, center forward stays upfront, and the wingers shift back to generate the third layer of defense along with a central midfielder, and ahead of two other central midfielders. That looks like 4-2-3-1 but it is actually floating 4-3-3.

The problem we have is our forwards are not the type that can function by themselves in the box, with winger sending the ball in. Also, our midfielders are too slow, and they can't generate the right offense for single-forward-in-the-box system; hence no real scoring opportunities for TM.

We need to start from midfield, even before changing the formation. We need faster younger midfielders, and then, if we put two forwards in the box, and a great passer like Jabbari or Nouri behind them, maybe we can see more action up front.

For that we also need better stronger defensive midfielder and the only one in Iran that can be a single defensive midfielder is Reza Haghighi: Left out of the list? Yep!?

We'll see if Carlos makes any changes in his team's formation and line up or we have to put up with the same trouble ...

[Doctor DOOM]

yes, 4-2-3-1 CAN (has the potential to) become an offensive one like 4-2-4 (as mourinho desperately tried this in some games with demaria, miss christina, benzema and ozil all join the attack).
but the key point that explains why WE at TM (dont care about other national or club teams) shd not use it is because we dont have that kind of players. so why persist with this?
one of the most glaring points is we dont have the right CF who can deliver the tasks (we've already gone over this before. so no need to repeat). But also the two wingers shd be players who can score goals too. when benzema plays up front at CF, ronaldo is on the wing, who scores even more goals than the CF himself (who isnt a slouch at scoring either). these wingers have the ability to add and mix or even switch places with the CF to score.
we dont!


as I said, it's not that the formation (it could be the next best thing to sliced bread), but that WE DONT HAVE the right players for that.

so now we have the option of staying in the same rot & quicksand and keep on wiggling (and sinking deeper and deeper) or we try something different.
and yes, I wouldnt give a rat's arse if an ancient and old formation like 3-5-2 is used as long as it suits us and our players can deliver in it. the aim is not showing the world "look, look ... we also use modern formations, see? see?"!!!! the aim is to see how we can get the maximum out of our players and games ... BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE.

[Mansoor]

^ I agree. The solution to our scoring problem is to find a better formation that fits our current set of players.

The change in Perspolis did it for them, I don't know why an experienced coach like Carlos can't see the same for Team Melli.

I think he is still hoping for miracle performance from his set of foreign based players, Gucci, Dejagah, and Shojaei .... we'll see if it happens or if another dry performance forces him to change his mind ...

[Doctor DOOM]

in a way we are lucky we have two TM games of slightly less importance (AC games) for us to assess if CQ has indeed learned his lesson or not. I'd say if we dont see any palpable change in these two games, we just excuse the chap and not waste any more opportunities and time on mindless theories based on inferiority complex

but the question is would IFF dare use their brains? would they dare change him and just accept to pay his remaining fees and salaries after termination? will that money be the deciding factor in sacrificing TM's fate?
and it doesnt stop at this TM's fate. it is the fate of at least one if not two generation of footballers. all those who are around 25-26, who'd be near the retirement age by next WC and will definitely miss 2018. add to these our 29+ players whon are QUITE A FEW (neku, ando, hosseini, aghili, montazeri, ... etc

so basically by choosing the money, they will be condemning all TM players above the age of 24 (which, thanks to CQ, is about 90% of the team. heh! so much for "rejuvenating" our national team!!!)

[Doctor DOOM]

I'm just watching CQ's NAVAD interview. and until minute 37 of the entire 45 minutes, I have not seen one time he admits to some fault of his own or failure or even short sightedness. any error or failure or mistake or ... is either the players, the clubs, the league, iran's or asia's standards!!!
edit: btw, until the end I didnt see anything different but blsming all and sundry .... except himself or his decisions!


he also side steps the question on whom did he introduce (based on his reputation of introducing youngsters). he squirms by quoting dejagah and RGN!!!
again, he runs away from the truth.


basically all he did was cliche after cliche and dodging questions.
just fantastic!!

but even worse than this is how he tried to use WAFF's 3 games (without mentioning lack of coordination, friendlies, preparations, ...) to most probably justify his naming the same OLD, AGING, SLOW AND UNDER-PERFORMING line up we've seen in the past 4-5 games with no fresh blood included!!!
what a surprise!!!
we suspected this months back. the moment you allow for time to pass, you'd see him distancing himself from any accountability or sign of learning from past mistakes (pretty much what happened after lebanon game. as time passed, he went back over his apologies and promises and ...!)