Are we turning into a COUNTER-ATTACKING team?

[zzgloo]

I liked what Brazil did against Spain....The Brazilians, out hustled the spaniards...and introrupted thier short passing game often by extending thier feets,and hustling more....
..
Payman jaan...how do you remedy,the gap of techniques,and skjlls,and speed....our TM has with those Big Boys ?

[Doctor DOOM]

more running & more pace.

you'd be amazed how lesser teams (technically and ability wise) could create so much trouble for world class teams with mere hard running and pace.
But for that, you have to believe in yourself. not hide in a corner waiting for the executioner to come and chop your head.



as for brazil's game plan, it was quite clear way before the game what they'd do.
you see, whatever teams do against barca, there are a couple of things that are very common;

press their defenders.
a high press, against their defenders and DM, forces them to keep passing the ball back between themselves and the keeper, who are less capable of ball handling than their midfield and strikers. and therefore more error-prone.
but the moment they somehow manage to get the ball to the midfield, you'd see the opponents retract and regroup in front of their 18. because the midfield having the ball is a very VERY different scenario than their defenders having the ball.

what helps here is because both barca and spain NT are quite short in height and not exactly the most physical team in the world, by pressing the defenders, you either force them to turn over or just kick under the ball, which in majority of cases, due to the height and physical advantage, YOU win the ball and not the spanish.


this high press needs players who are quick, hard working and who can run a lot, to be able to pull it off.
but as no team can sustain this high press for long periods, you see clever teams do it in spurts and intervals. in the meantime, they regroup and catch their breath by forming double/triple layers of defense in front of their 18.

BUT THEY ALWAYS HAVE AN EYE ON COUNTER ATTACKS.
which means even if the spanish defense pulls up the pitch, especially using their flank defenders (fullbacks like alba & arbeloa), they give you quite a few miles of space behind. combined with their slow centerbacks like pique, your chances of a good counterattack are pretty high
a couple of very quick runners can do serious damage.



this is what most teams do against barca/spain to either get points off them or even win.
but teams that merely sit back and hope for a quick 90 minutes, usually get torn to pieces as the spanish defense joins in (pique and ramos sometimes come way up to head balls during the open game) and apply so much pressure that you just have to give in!
and then from then on, it's a slow, miserable death for you

[zzgloo]

more running & more pace.

Payman jaan...I read your post, and it is well thought of......
but..and that is a big But ( not a big Butt ! )
and tell me if, " More running & Pace " can help with these :.
Can it help skills ?
can it control the ball better ?
can it help to pass correctly ?
Can it help not to lose the ball ?
Can it help to kick more procisely ?
can it help the stamina ?
Can it help the speed ?
Can it help Physicality ,and out muscleing ?
Can it help the football intelegence ?
Can it help profesionality ?
................................................
The more running and more pace you are suggesting...will it more than what TM did against South Korea ?.....and did it help ?

[Doctor DOOM]

1- the running and pace is the rock bottom requisite any small team needs to go against top teams.
anything above that, is a bonus.
but without running and pace, you could have the skills of 10 messis, you're still going to come up second best in almost everything.
what good is your intelligence or trapping skills or dribbling if you cant get to the ball before the opponent?


2- I also dont see why you're asking if more running and pace can help "stamina and speed". they ARE stamina and speed.

3- yes, we must do more than what we did against korea. against top european and south american teams who regularly do 10-12 KM's in a game, our lads must be able to pull off at least 9-10 KM's.
unfortunately if I'm not mistaken, their average is somewhere around 7-7.5 KM or so!!!
needs improving.

[zzgloo]

I agree it is a minimum any team can do facing a stronger team.....but,will that do it for them ?......


Yes, Will it help the stamina and speed ?.....the style of Iranian football is " slow " football...and players on avarage run much less as European leagues......how could they do something they never did, and still be good at it..or even better than the opponant that does such football all the time ?

[Doctor DOOM]

by working on their stamina, energy and pace.
by the coach selecting players that can deliver the much needed stamina, energy and pace, and not looking at their 'names'

[yashar_fasihnia]

^

u cant choose players just cos they are hard working or have pace, otherwise or starters of TM should be ahmad momenzadeh, siavash akbarpour and mehrzad madanchi...

moreover, to reach the stamina and pace of such a high level to be able to counter the top teams in the world, this has to be trained and done over the year at club and
league level. national coach can try and improve this to some extent, but it will never reach that level of international teams just through broken up TM camps...

[Dreamer]

Guys,

some of you speak as if our team plays the same quality football as some sort of team from Micronesia ...

Switzerland beat Spain in 2010, has everyone here (esp. zz jan) forgotten about that? It's not like smaller teams like us can't give bigger teams a run for their money ...

We played *weak* against Qatar and Korea, offensively speaking. Defensively, we were stellar, but offensive wise ... not so much. Hell, the only players that played truly top notch football were the defenders -- none of our midfielders could get 3 passes in succession. This isn't because of their skill, this is because of their mentality, nervousness and tactics that the coach gave them. Honestly we were pretty damn lucky to qualify. Two goals, that were caused by control errors of the opposition, and one brilliant, deadly forward on our part resulted in us qualifying. Without Ghoochannejhad and those errors, we barely had 5 shots on goal altogether.

THAT IS WEAK.

I don't care how much everyone suddenly loves Quieroz, but I for one am still a critic. I'm happy that we qualified, but he plays with 10 defenders and 1 forward.

What's worse is that he doesn't even put a capable ball distributor behind the forward. Nekounam, Teymourian or Jabbari are classic playmakers. Hell, all of them (with the exception of Jabbari because I don't know much about him) are defensive midfielders who primarily take the ball, and either pass it to the playmaker, or to the wings. Nekounam is brilliant at providing long passes and Teymourian's hustling is world class, but we're missing a key player, and that's our playmaker.

It can't possibly be Shojaei in this form on the left wing, or Heydari who is a right back. It's incredibly simple. If we want to unlock our potential with the current tactics, we need a second forward. Be that an in form Ghazi, or a stellar Hatami, or [B]ZANDI[/B] -- one who is in form mind you.

If Zandi is in form, and that is a big if, he could be a huuuuuuuuuuuuge help. He runs back enough, and plays a fantastic one touch game, which is something that Ghoochannejhad has the ability to make use of. Furthermore, Dejagah - Zandi - Ghoochannejhad can make a killer line up.

Now, I only say Zandi because I haven't been watching lots of IPL as of late. I'm sure there are other candidates who need to be trusted in order to show their abilities. Afshin would fit great on the left wing, it's just up to his attitude (as I'm guessing the only thing keeping him out of the squad is his attitude) and form to catch up with Queiroz. Or Jahanbakhsh in form, or Khalatbari etc. etc.


Anyways, my main point is, it is not impossible for us to win against big teams. We have the players, we just need the mentality, and [at least] a more offensive mindset.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ I agree with the jist. we shdnt enter any game already having surrendered and given up before the kick off. no matter how strong the opponent.
the worst thing that could happen to us is to display a gutless, scared and negative football

u cant choose players just cos they are hard working or have pace, otherwise or starters of TM should be ahmad momenzadeh, siavash akbarpour and mehrzad madanchi...

as I said, the stamina and pace are the rock bottom requisites.
meaning if momenzadeh or madanchi or ... can deliver that and if their direct rivals for their posts DONT HAVE ANYTHING MORE to offer, then by all means yes.
what do you say?
dont you think for example khalatbari has more to offer than madanchi? or RGN than the 35-36 yr old momenzadeh?

but if somehow the 32 year old madanchi can run harder and longer and quicker as well as show superior ball skills than khalatbari, then by all means lets include him in the team.CAN HE?
it would be pretty foolish of us if we overlook such a player just based on his name or age.

[yashar_fasihnia]

^
as I said, the stamina and pace are the rock bottom requisites.
meaning if momenzadeh or madanchi or ... can deliver that and if their direct rivals for their posts DONT HAVE ANYTHING MORE to offer, then by all means yes.
what do you say?
dont you think for example khalatbari has more to offer than madanchi? or hosseini than momenzadeh?

but if somehow the 32 year old madanchi can run harder and longer and quicker as well as show superior ball skills than khalatbari, then by all means lets include him in the team.CAN HE?
it would be pretty foolish of us if we overlook such a player just based on his name or age.

true but if madanchi was faster, fitter AND more skilled than khalatbari (example), then he would have been chosen for TM anyways? any player who has so many good attributes will be rocking the league and be an automatic starter in TM.

but the problem is we dont have such all rounders in iran right now. we have skilled but fragile and weak players, we have agile and fast but stupid players, we have strong but extremely slow players, we have hustlers but with extremely poor ball control and skills...
hence the coach has to come up with a combination of such players to cover the weaknesses and posses some positive attributes

[Doctor DOOM]

correct.
and no team in the world has players getting 10 rating in all the criteria. and iran isnt an exception either.

but CQ can draw up charts (as I assume they have done) on the likely players (a large list of 50 or so layers) and for each post start comparing the players and see how they score in each, and then overall categories. in fact these are tasks that must be done by his assistants and a comprehensive list would be prepared for CQ's final selection.


the best way is to have specific charts and sheets for each post and the primary and secondary criteria for these posts. Then to evaluate each player according to these primary and secondary criteria and compare their scores. and finally come to a proper list of top 2-3 players for that post, followed by perhaps another 1-2 back ups.
and then, move to the next post.


and given how he (and his staff?) have fine tuned their selection from poor to average to good during the past 2 years, to a situation where his roster, aside from 1 or at best 2 names, are pretty much the best we have on offer shows this work is being done.

now, if only they do the final bit by getting the issue of "famous names" sorted out, they'd be spot on, all proper.

[zzgloo]

For those of us whom have been here for longer time, they should emember an issue we talked about often in the past...and that was, : " What is The Iranian Football Style ".....? anyway !
I am not sure if we came up with any cdefenit answer......but, this issue more and more will come up, as TM advances itself....if it does at all.
I remember the South Korean Coach, three years ago,while TM was under Ghotbi, mentioned that he never understood Iranian football and considered Iranian football as " Lost " !in Style.
....as far as the topic of this thread is concerned, I am not sure what Is TM's style is becomming....
Is Iranian football more of eastern European style ?
or
Central Asian Style ?
Or,
Iranian street football influenced football ?
..
or...what ever the currant coach of TM's style would be ?
..
You make the call...if the last option is the answer.....CQ's style, is what we will be playing in the World cup....and that settles is !!

[Doctor DOOM]

the nature of our football has always been a forward moving, offensive one.
I bring the counter-attacking one in because:
CQ is a defensive minded coach and he just doesnt inspire confidence in me when offensive football is concerned. truth must be told.

also we're going to meet at least 1 heavy hitter team, if not two in the group. and against such teams, I would rather have some offensive strategies (even if in the form of counter attacks) than none (totally defensive one).

but more importantly, we MUST HAVE a sound offensive strategy for the 4th team in the group as well as the second one (unless this one is a major power, in which case, again a counter attacking one is advised)

[Doctor DOOM]

This post was done much before the draw for the WC groups took place.

the nature of our football has always been a forward moving, offensive one.
I bring the counter-attacking one in because:
CQ is a defensive minded coach and he just doesnt inspire confidence in me when offensive football is concerned. truth must be told.
also we're going to meet at least 1 heavy hitter team, if not two in the group. and against such teams, I would rather have some offensive strategies (even if in the form of counter attacks) than none (totally defensive one).
but more importantly, we MUST HAVE a sound offensive strategy for the 4th team in the group as well as the second one (unless this one is a major power, in which case, again a counter attacking one is advised)

Even then, CQ's (non existent) offensive plans were on doubt.
But as you can see, I still held out some hope that somehow, somewhere he'd at least devise an offensive plan should we need the points.

I just didn't expect him to totally ignore anything offensive and step into the games with only the singular, defensive plan in mind and nothing else!!!
I still thought we could plan on counterattacks! Hah! What foolish dreams and illusions!

Just went through the thread. My word, what hopes we had!
How we lulled ourselves thinking we'd do this and that!
It's rather interesting to see how each one was thinking and what they predicted or expected a year before the WC.