We need to wake up ….

[KC McElroy]

I recognize your sentiment but I put it to you that you have a misunderstanding of what vatan is and what patriotism means.

Think hard about this...the whole of the Iranian national team was being disowned by a significant proportion of Iranian society. People were dancing in the streets celebrating the elimination. Who were the vatanforoosh? Those who played for the team of "The Islamic Republic"? Those who were dodging bullets and booing TM at the same time?

TM goes and visits a mass murderer (of their own compatriots) who is also the Iranian president....the only thing they bring up is their padash. Who is the vatanforoosh?

Just as every Iranian emigre contributes to their own society, so can a football player (or any sportsman) emmigrate and contribute to their new society.

If some ex-iranian defeats an Iranian in any sporting events, that is not vatanforooshy....that is playing a sport.

If Saman and Ashkan and Gucci played for Iran, it was only because they were not invited to their NTs before they accepted to play for Iran. They would not have been vatanfoosh for whatever choice they made.

Ozil and Gindugan and Podolski play for Germany....they are not vatanfoosh either. Turks and Poles are proud of them for being good enough to play for Germany.




Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

You are wrong on all accounts. It takes nothing away from the fact that you say that for the right price you would wear a qatari jersey and try to defeat TM. This is a parallel to the reason why MEK are so despised and labeled vatan foroosh.
We wish you luck in your dream of becoming an ex-Iranian and playing for qatar.

[koorosh]

You are wrong on all accounts. It takes nothing away from the fact that you say that for the right price you would wear a qatari jersey and try to defeat TM. This is a parallel to the reason why MEK are so despised and labeled vatan foroosh.
We wish you luck in your dream of becoming an ex-Iranian and playing for qatar.

Thanks for your kind wishes. I didn't know I was that bad.

Just so that it is clear for all potential recruiters, if any national team wants a fifty year old non-league ex-soccer player with a bad knee, I would be delighted to play for nothing and will even purchase my own kit!

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[AGC]

Let's put it another way...

Who here lives in, pays taxes in, and contributes to society at large in Iran?

Who here lives in another country and contributes to where they reside?

Our football players have the same right to emigration as we do...they would just be joining the 4-5 million Iranian diaspora...most of whom are not political refugees and live elsewhere because they seek freedom.

Our best referee will be representing Australia after being pushed out of IFF.

We have star wrestlers representing other countries.

We have astronauts representing other countries.

If the best and the brightest brains have and are leaving, why not the best footballers?

If IRI cared about Iranians, it would have done something about the Brain Drain rather than a handful of footballers (in which the country did not even invest)

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Use rhetorical stasis so we can identify where the issue of disagreement lies.

Lets us not mix up the cards here and let us untangle what the issue is.

The most logical comparison should be working outside Iran and playing for a club outside Iran. As far as I know none is saying only play for iranian clubs.

A better comparison would be something like serving in the military, developing foreign policy etcetera. In these areas you see few iranians.

Regarding the brain drain I think a vast majority of iranians agree with you. But brain drain is a completely other issue than serving other countries.

And last of all: none is holding IR unaccountable but that doesnt excuse selling out to qataris or whatever.

[AGC]

Also IR is major cause of brain drain and they certainly bear a heavy responsibility. But we also have democratic middle income countries with brain drain. So lets not simplify matters and only focus on brain drain.

[koorosh]

Use rhetorical stasis so we can identify where the issue of disagreement lies.

Lets us not mix up the cards here and let us untangle what the issue is.

The most logical comparison should be working outside Iran and playing for a club outside Iran. As far as I know none is saying only play for iranian clubs.

A better comparison would be something like serving in the military, developing foreign policy etcetera. In these areas you see few iranians.

Regarding the brain drain I think a vast majority of iranians agree with you. But brain drain is a completely other issue than serving other countries.

And last of all: none is holding IR unaccountable but that doesnt excuse selling out to qataris or whatever.

I don't think working for a different government or military is at all a similar comparison. How would playing a game of football against your country of birth hurt them? There is a difference between shooting a soccer ball and a bullet!

Football is a game. An apt comparison would be other sports...no?

In the Olympics movement, the IOC allows olympians to change nationalities and subsequently play for a different country. This will likely be the future of Football as well.

Some people could never compete for another country...others can. If someone thinks that let's say Alireza Firouzja is as bad as MEK, then I suggest they have serious judgement issues.




Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[PSGman#19]

I don't think working for a different government or military is at all a similar comparison. How would playing a game of football against your country of birth hurt them? There is a difference between shooting a soccer ball and a bullet!

Football is a game. An apt comparison would be other sports...no?

In the Olympics movement, the IOC allows olympians to change nationalities and subsequently play for a different country. This will likely be the future of Football as well.

Some people could never compete for another country...others can. If someone thinks that let's say Alireza Firouzja is as bad as MEK, then I suggest they have serious judgement issues.


Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Didnt you say before TM were representing their government ? So football is a game or a question of representing a government?

[AGC]

I don't think working for a different government or military is at all a similar comparison. How would playing a game of football against your country of birth hurt them? There is a difference between shooting a soccer ball and a bullet!

Football is a game. An apt comparison would be other sports...no?

In the Olympics movement, the IOC allows olympians to change nationalities and subsequently play for a different country. This will likely be the future of Football as well.

Some people could never compete for another country...others can. If someone thinks that let's say Alireza Firouzja is as bad as MEK, then I suggest they have serious judgement issues.




Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Regarding MEK: Well thats their words not mine. I dont find it as grave to play soccer compared to what those traitors are doing.

Regarding hurting people. No I agree completely. None dies in a soccer game. But it is still representing another government. The fact that there are nuances doesnt change much. Petty theft and armed robbery are still crimes no matter the graveness.

I just want to add that I find your argument having merit: no doubt. In the end its of course a normative question. Personally I cant find it in me to serve my new home country. Yes my country of living have given me many opportunities but in a strange way they will never accept me as one of their own. Each and every day immigrants over here get looked upon as we are thugs.

No matter how good one does they never see the value of our contributions either.

[DR Strangemoosh]

What do you guys think about people who are travelling to watch Iran in a football tournament wear the national team colours of other teams everywhere apart from the football stadium?

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[koorosh]

Didnt you say before TM were representing their government ? So football is a game or a question of representing a government?

No, I did not say that. I said that there were a whole lot of Iranians who believed TM represented the Iranian government. I was showing an example that by playing for ones national team doesn't mean that people are perceived to be patriotic by their nationals and by playing for some other national team doesn't mean that they are vatanfoosh.

During this recent wrestling world championship, an Iranian wrestler bearing the colors of Iran had a match with an Iranian wrestler bearing the colors of Germany. After the match they had a very friendly long conversation. When the first Iranian was asked why did you speak for so long and were so friendly, he said...well he is a countryman of mine and I want Iranians to be successful no matter where they live. That is patriotism...caring about the people of Iran...not some dumb ass shirt...made in a German factory.

The people of Turkey love Ozil not because he is such a vatanfoosh, but because he represents the success of their people.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[koorosh]

What do you guys think about people who are travelling to watch Iran in a football tournament wear the national team colours of other teams everywhere apart from the football stadium?

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Funny enough I have worn Brazilian and Argentinian colors. I like their teams and their football. Many people of many countries wear other national colors. If they wore it to an Iran game then they were either short of shirts or thoughtless.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[PSGman#19]

No, I did not say that. I said that there were a whole lot of Iranians who believed TM represented the Iranian government. I was showing an example that by playing for ones national team doesn't mean that people are perceived to be patriotic by their nationals and by playing for some other national team doesn't mean that they are vatanfoosh.

During this recent wrestling world championship, an Iranian wrestler bearing the colors of Iran had a match with an Iranian wrestler bearing the colors of Germany. After the match they had a very friendly long conversation. When the first Iranian was asked why did you speak for so long and were so friendly, he said...well he is a countryman of mine and I want Iranians to be successful no matter where they live. That is patriotism...caring about the people of Iran...not some dumb ass shirt...made in a German factory.

The people of Turkey love Ozil not because he is such a vatanfoosh, but because he represents the success of their people.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Ozil is loved in Turkey now because he came back and played in Turkey, kept a strong connection with Turkey, was also the target of some Germans (some believing it was because he has turk roots).

The difference is Ozil was born in Germany

[a_m]

My original message, which with this post was not to question anybody’s patriotism to their country or their loyalty to the national team, or anything like that it was not an individual call out for any member here , or a political post .

It was aboutCQ trying to lure two young talented players from our system to the Qatari system. That was it, and I was talking about the inefficiencies of our national team coach (Mainly GN) and his lack of ability to regulate and prevent this from happening.

it is unfortunate ppl on here made it political and call out individuals personally asking them if they would represent another country , it was not the main point .

We are not a super power talent producing nation in football. We produce one talent probably every three or four years some countries produce 10 every two years.

So every talent we have that can represent us we need to hold onto them tightly.

[inarsenewetrust]

If you listen to Hazbavi speak then you would understand most of this discussion we are beating ourselves up about is really a hypothetical that won’t happen.

the kid is committed and loves iran, has been a captain of our youth teams for his entire career so far.

football is special scenario when it comes to larger “brain drain” conversation. Footballers are free to participate in the highest levels of world football regardless of their affiliation with Iran, policies of IR simply by being good enough and pursuing their club career. That’s not really the case when it comes other careers. A guy like firouzja was in a really critical stage in his career and irans federation was not supporting him properly, there was a real chance of his talent going to waste because of the age window in which a chess player needs to make significant gains. In wrestling scenario is totally different, we are a powerhouse and have too many good wrestlers. Of course some will want to show themselves on world stage every year and prove their doubters within our wrestling ranks wrong, and consider nationality change as many Russians do. That is normal part of being a powerhouse in this kind of sport, where only 1 person in each weight class can show themselves to the world.

Representing another NT is a really painful thing for many players…Azmoun had a chance to go to a much better footballing country than Qatar, where he would have been a star in Euros and WCs (Russia) and rejected that opportunity with little consideration.

if Hazbavi has a good vision and ppl around him he can be a leader in our back line for the next 15 years. His maturity and leadership qualities in addition to technical talent is impressive. Hope he plays his cards right.

[taremiscores]

This is nonsensical.

Hazbavi posted a pic of himself on IG - when rumours were running rampant he was going to become Qatar NT player - with him in the Iranian jersey with "💚🤍❤️" on May 14.

He is going to Qatar to play for Al Saad to make good money and hopefully move to better footballing leagues (as his IG story said - that it's his goal.) He also said he wants to best represent Iranian footballers abroad in his thank you note to Foolad.

IR is a terrible anti-Iranian regime but Team Melli to these players means representing the Iranian people. It's a sacred thing.

[PSGman#19]

Btw lot of Argentinian players (good or bad) put their country & NT over everything, even their top club are put behind, even if they have disastrous political and economical situations (300% inflation). Don't think they would have one second such debate.