We need to wake up ….

[a_m]

Gn said after the Es vs Per game he will release the TM roster , now 24 hours later still no roster…

I am waiting I want to see the new young talents he has invited to the team or the same old players we always have for 3 meaningless friendly games against weak team. ,

[Under Lahaf]

Well I just came back from Iran and me and my family were enjoying ourselves on the nice beaches of the Persian Gulf, but yeah in your mind people in Iran probably don‘t enjoy themselves and only have a sad life because Iran International and Manoto said so 😂 of course the incomes should be higher but I think also in a lot of other countries a lot of people live from paycheck to paycheck so I don‘t get your point?! If you feel bad about it you can travel to the country of your origin and help out the economy with your dollars 😉

very glad to hear that you can visit Iran and enjoy its beaches during your vacations and then travel back to your safe home, secured future and rule of law abroad.
Unfortunately, I cannot travel to [my country of origin] Iran due to my political activities for the freedom of that origin country and its origin people who didn't sell out their souls to the Islamic republic. My immediate family living in Iran aren't happy either. In fact last time they travel to Caspian Sea they ended up renting a house with an indoor pool so the younger daughters of the family could also have some freedom and freely swim.

anyways this is a football forum and I have stated my opinion and won't drag this any further. we witness how these people are living every day and have no right to tell dictate to them their options and careers.

[DR Strangemoosh]

very glad to hear that you can visit Iran and enjoy its beaches during your vacations and then travel back to your safe home, secured future and rule of law abroad.
Unfortunately, I cannot travel to [my country of origin] Iran due to my political activities for the freedom of that origin country and its origin people who didn't sell out their souls to the Islamic republic. My immediate family living in Iran aren't happy either. In fact last time they travel to Caspian Sea they ended up renting a house with an indoor pool so the younger daughters of the family could also have some freedom and freely swim.

anyways this is a football forum and I have stated my opinion and won't drag this any further. we witness how these people are living every day and have no right to tell dictate to them their options and careers.

You have a superhuman level of patience, agha.

[AGC]

I just wanted to add a thing: My sentiments come from the fact to none puts Iran first. At least thats my sentiment. We all are culpable of this in one way or another, more or less. I also dont think there is any disagreements regarding those terrible excuses of human beings that hurt our citizens.

Also I feel like we are conflating the issue of who is a migrant and refugee. The in between these categories may be blurred and its not a water proof distinction by any means. But the separation of these categories may help us understand where the issue lies.

If one is ****forced**** to leave our country. Then the person is a refugee. A refugee has no choice (again: the categories are blurred very often). Clear cases are women that have their rights stolen from them, athletes that have voiced their disagreement with those terrible power hungry excuses of people ruling us and are forced to abandon their commitments etcetera.

Migrants on the other hand very often have options: Options of how to get out of the country in legal, safe and controlled manners. Also footballers have opportunities unlike other sportspeople with fringe popularity.

1. We need to do a distinction between clear cut refuuges and clear cut migrants (the situation is indeed complicated for people in between)
2. We need to do a distinction between athletes that have alternative opportunities than selling out and athletes that are excelling at sports with no money and opportunities.

Footballers very often are not forced to leave eventhough there are clear exceptions. Footballers have tons of opportunities abroad. See most people recognize these distinctions but not always: None would moralize if a average player left although they fall in the other fallacy of blaming some poor judo dude without money jumping ship. But I think my point is clear.

Now I have european citizenship and in many ways im european. But I was born Iranian and will die as an iranian one day. Our nationality is on blood-line. I can live in madagascar, i will still be iranian. On mars Im still iranian. Eventhough we have animals as rules we are still iranian.

[AGC]

Finally regarding a_ms concerns regarding CQs potential poaching of our talents. I completely share that concern bruh. IFF is not doing its jobs. There are kun goshad lazy namards. Worst part its not a resource issue at all adressing things like this. Its just pure incompetence. Its really hard for these people to make a few calls and have a strategy of binding players to commitments inside of iran. But then again: who is surprised? lol

[koorosh]

For those of you who are old fashioned about a flag...

10 of the world's top chess players are playing in Norway Chess 2023 tournament.

Alireza Firouzja, Iranian-French
Aryan Tari, Iranian-Norweigan
Shahryar Mohammadyarov, Azerbaijan (formerly Iran)
Noorbeyk Abdulsattarov, Uzbek (former Iranian territory)
Anish Giri , Indian-Dutch
Hikura Nakamura, Japanese-American
Fabiano Caruana, Italian-American
Wesley So, Filipino-American
Magnus Carlsen, Norwegian
Gukesh D, Indian




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[koorosh]

I just wanted to add a thing: My sentiments come from the fact to none puts Iran first. At least thats my sentiment. We all are culpable of this in one way or another, more or less. I also dont think there is any disagreements regarding those terrible excuses of human beings that hurt our citizens.

Also I feel like we are conflating the issue of who is a migrant and refugee. The in between these categories may be blurred and its not a water proof distinction by any means. But the separation of these categories may help us understand where the issue lies.

If one is ****forced**** to leave our country. Then the person is a refugee. A refugee has no choice (again: the categories are blurred very often). Clear cases are women that have their rights stolen from them, athletes that have voiced their disagreement with those terrible power hungry excuses of people ruling us and are forced to abandon their commitments etcetera.

Migrants on the other hand very often have options: Options of how to get out of the country in legal, safe and controlled manners. Also footballers have opportunities unlike other sportspeople with fringe popularity.

1. We need to do a distinction between clear cut refuuges and clear cut migrants (the situation is indeed complicated for people in between)
2. We need to do a distinction between athletes that have alternative opportunities than selling out and athletes that are excelling at sports with no money and opportunities.

Footballers very often are not forced to leave eventhough there are clear exceptions. Footballers have tons of opportunities abroad. See most people recognize these distinctions but not always: None would moralize if a average player left although they fall in the other fallacy of blaming some poor judo dude without money jumping ship. But I think my point is clear.

Now I have european citizenship and in many ways im european. But I was born Iranian and will die as an iranian one day. Our nationality is on blood-line. I can live in madagascar, i will still be iranian. On mars Im still iranian. Eventhough we have animals as rules we are still iranian.

As you acknowledged, those lines of distinction become blurred very quickly. How poor is poor? How much force is "forced"? How much opportunity is enough to change a vatanfoosh to a freedom seeker?

Right now Islamic Republic of Iran is executing people at a rate of 4/day.

Elnaz Rekabi's family home was demolished. Now is she poor enough or persecuted enough to climb under a different flag? What about other female climbers... should they fill her spot or leave the country? Half the people of Iran are women...do they and their children have the right under your conditions to play for a different countr

There is a lot of wisdom in Under-lahafs post above. His last sentence is worth reading again.




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[AGC]

As you acknowledged, those lines of distinction become blurred very quickly. How poor is poor? How much force is "forced"? How much opportunity is enough to change a vatanfoosh to a freedom seeker?

Right now Islamic Republic of Iran is executing people at a rate of 4/day.

Elnaz Rekabi's family home was demolished. Now is she poor enough or persecuted enough to climb under a different flag? What about other female climbers... should they fill her spot or leave the country? Half the people of Iran are women...do they and their children have the right under your conditions to play for a different countr

There is a lot of wisdom in Under-lahafs post above. His last sentence is worth reading again.




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Agha Im not arguing against that. But you are not adressing what I wrote. We talk about male iranian football players with talents and opportunities. Not women, not working and middle class iranians that are directly persecuted. I really suspect that you dodge the issue at hand.

Your case does not get stronger by stating obvious things like persecution is bad. We completely agree about blurred lines.

Whatever other ppl write, its pn them. Like shouting treason etc.

[koorosh]

Okay...if we take women and religious minorities (Sunni and Bahai and Jews) and atheists and ethnic minorities who are disproportionately discriminated (Kurds, Arabs, Baluch etc) and LGBTQ group (Ahmadinejad cover your ears) out of the equation, then we are left with a minority.

Now this group that you refer to as without excuses to jump ship....they don't have wives, mothers, sisters and daughters that live under discrimination? They have themselves no firm interest in freedom of expression? They have no right to be upset the discrimination that their countrymen face? They have no reason to complain about the increasing poverty and corruption, not to mention severely polluted air and environment? They should have no reason to want to leave because they can make good money in Iran as long as they hold their noses?

In your opinion, Mojahed Khaziravi would not have an excuse if he had left Iran and played for a different flag? because he was banned for doing something apolitical but taboo in IR?

According to IR stats, 4.1 million people have left Iran and the vast majority have obtained citizenship elsewhere. They should not play for any other national team?





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[Hosseini]

Then, what is the point of having a national team? By this token, any country with systemic poverty and anti democratic practices should just not have players to field a team. Mexican players with American citizenship should just jump ship and try to play for the USA at any costs. African players should then just stick to playing in Europe if they can. In this estimation, national teams should just be clubs where you can be bought and sold.

If this happens, those teams wont have any quality players and the richer, more influential countries will secure a far higher advantage.

By the way, you don't have to live in Iran to play for the NT as many of our legionnares have shown. There is a real honor to wearing the national team jersey because it represents a love and brings joy to our people. The happiest days of our lives came from the successes of our national team. That's why we're all here. Many of our players understand this and choose to wear Iran's jersey for this reason.

Okay...if we take women and religious minorities (Sunni and Bahai and Jews) and atheists and ethnic minorities who are disproportionately discriminated (Kurds, Arabs, Baluch etc) and LGBTQ group (Ahmadinejad cover your ears) out of the equation, then we are left with a minority.

Now this group that you refer to as without excuses to jump ship....they don't have wives, mothers, sisters and daughters that live under discrimination? They have themselves no firm interest in freedom of expression? They have no right to be upset the discrimination that their countrymen face? They have no reason to complain about the increasing poverty and corruption, not to mention severely polluted air and environment? They should have no reason to want to leave because they can make good money in Iran as long as they hold their noses?

In your opinion, Mojahed Khaziravi would not have an excuse if he had left Iran and played for a different flag? because he was banned for doing something apolitical but taboo in IR?

According to IR stats, 4.1 million people have left Iran and the vast majority have obtained citizenship elsewhere. They should not play for any other national team?





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[Hosseini]

Good for them. I sincerely applaud them for their success. But there is a real value in uplifting Iran on the international stage, and with all the negative coverage, stereotypes about Iranians, the decades of propaganda fueled against the Iranian people, using one's talents in the pursuit of bringing pride, esteem, and notoriety on the international stage for Iranians is truly a serious, serious accomplishment.

Look at all the young kids who look to these athletes representing Iran as role models and that build their self-esteem. Ali Daei is a great example. Jalal Hosseini was for me as a kid growing up. This doesn't necessarily happen for Iranians who wear another nation's jersey.

For those of you who are old fashioned about a flag...

10 of the world's top chess players are playing in Norway Chess 2023 tournament.

Alireza Firouzja, Iranian-French
Aryan Tari, Iranian-Norweigan
Shahryar Mohammadyarov, Azerbaijan (formerly Iran)
Noorbeyk Abdulsattarov, Uzbek (former Iranian territory)
Anish Giri , Indian-Dutch
Hikura Nakamura, Japanese-American
Fabiano Caruana, Italian-American
Wesley So, Filipino-American
Magnus Carlsen, Norwegian
Gukesh D, Indian




Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[AGC]

Koorosh jan: It's their choice. They may do whatever pleases them. Everyone knows their own best interests in the end. I disagree. Nationhood is more than perks, benefits etcetera. I would only represent a country to which people I feel close to. I will always be a democrat in the sense that I believe in freedoms and democratic processes. Representing a nation is another issue for me. I respect that you have other sentiments. Make no mistake about it.

But fact remains that people that are pro footballers, with potential of being called up have plenty of choices. They dont need to climb mountains to get out of the country. 99 percent of them are not persecuted. Yes they live in an totalitarian dictatorship that is correct. If the case is that they need to leave by any means necessary this argument does not hold. It just doesnt. Alipour left. Charleroi players left. Taremi left. Shojai is both spanish and iranian. So is nekounam. I believe mahdavikia and hashemian too. They can take a flight to hamburg or whatever and chose to never go back. They will have welfare states that look after them and plenty of good opportunities. Are we in disagreement about this?

My point is: If these players would leave, they would have other motives.

You have to change your argument into: Is it okay to represent another country when your country of birth which you always will be a citizen of is a dictatorship? Then thats a completely different topic. What Im arguing against is this false notion that these footballers that change nationality have no choice. This is indeed a normative question. If they cared about Iran they would have the choice not to play for another national team, which doesnt bring them much money anyway. Maybe non financial perks and benefits but they would still make great money if the would chose to reject this option.

The other motive would be that they are looking after themselves. And here we disagree. I think there are limits to how much a person is looking after himself. Nobody need these kinds of fantasy sums. Economic inequality is inherently bad imho. Maybe you disagree and thats fine.

We both agree that the persons we are talking about are a minority. A judoka lives under different conditions and this is exactly my point!

Now Koorosh jan: whatever we may disagree on. We both agree on that the main culprit is those in charge of our vatan.

Okay...if we take women and religious minorities (Sunni and Bahai and Jews) and atheists and ethnic minorities who are disproportionately discriminated (Kurds, Arabs, Baluch etc) and LGBTQ group (Ahmadinejad cover your ears) out of the equation, then we are left with a minority.

Now this group that you refer to as without excuses to jump ship....they don't have wives, mothers, sisters and daughters that live under discrimination? They have themselves no firm interest in freedom of expression? They have no right to be upset the discrimination that their countrymen face? They have no reason to complain about the increasing poverty and corruption, not to mention severely polluted air and environment? They should have no reason to want to leave because they can make good money in Iran as long as they hold their noses?

In your opinion, Mojahed Khaziravi would not have an excuse if he had left Iran and played for a different flag? because he was banned for doing something apolitical but taboo in IR?

According to IR stats, 4.1 million people have left Iran and the vast majority have obtained citizenship elsewhere. They should not play for any other national team?


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[perspolis#1]

Koorosh jan, I think that playing for a country in which you have no cultural connection, like Hazbavi's case, seems quite horrible. If Hazbavi were to play for Qatar I would condemn that decision, similar to Qatar recruiting other foreign-based players. Many of the players on our national team are critical of the government. Being a government lackey is not a prerequisite for being a TM player. Therefore, there's no real suggestion that I would have to kiss any government official's ass if I didn't want to in order to get playing time. Plenty of examples of dissidents in TM, no need to go through the list, but we can if you want.

Not to nitpick but if any of the players refused to meet Raisi before the world cup they would not be on the plane to Qatar.
I myself, as a super anti-IR person, do not think representing TM means representing the regime. I would love to play for Iran. I would sneer at the thought of having to meet those monkeys or have to do pre-game religious rituals and propaganda when I want to only represent my nation, respectfully.

[taremiscores]

Lots of reasons to play for IR Iran.

[DR Strangemoosh]

Lots of reasons to play for IR Iran.

But it's OK because you can go and meet your family and enjoy yourself on the nice beaches of the Persian Gulf

And people in Iran probably don‘t enjoy themselves and only have a sad life because Iran International and Manoto said so and the kids hanging are just iran international and manoto propaganda. Men and women getting executed, ok fine chill out

Yeah, it's a dream because some people's cosy family holiday is nice