[POLL] Do we need Euro legionnaires that much?

[PSGman#19]

For one Taremi, how many career destroyed in Europe, injured prone, bench warming, crash of confidence, loss of quality, inadequate offers ?

Most of our TM scorer at WC were IPL players. Lot of players performing at WC were IPL players, from mahdavikia, to Majid Hosseini with Ando and Neku in the middle. Jalal Hosseini was a rock for us, AK8 was much better with TM before his spell in Europe, Moharammi can be superb at Dinamo in UCL (without any good offer after) but couldn't be better than an IPL rezaeian, Amiri at wc18 and against Sweden, etc..
I can add Shojaei that was always shit for TM except from time to time, a little better with JB but not the level of someone supposed to play in premier league/eredivisie champions or eredivisie top scorer, Beiro shaky and more injury prone during/since his euro spell, etc..

We were able to get a very competitive league and TM in volleyball from scratch. Of course football will be harder but we have some tools. It may go slow I know but should we lose our time waiting for Euro offers and following Euro legionnaires with so many expectations?

KSA signing offers us a unique chance to focus on ourselves (instead of depending on others) and progress.

[Pluto2000]

Please do not forget where Iran was in 2010 vs where we are 13 years later in 2023. In 2010, Iran was ranked 64 in FIFA rankings. We used to regularly lose or tie to Arab teams like Iraq, Syria, UAE. Now we are ranked 22. What happened in those 13 years? We had strikers like AJ, Taremi, Azmoun go to Europe. Ezatolahi went to Atletico Madrid. Almost ALL of our 23 players in 2018 WC were part of European clubs, aside from 9 from IPL.

Don't forget Rezaian PLAYED in Europe before going to Qatar. He faced teams like Olympique Marseille as part of Oostende.

The problem comes down to this:

• Sure if you have talent and play for one of top 2-3 teams in IPL, I have no issue with you staying there and developing. Playing in teams like Esteghlal/Perspolis/Sepahan is preferable to going to a shitty 2nd tier Portuguese club like Santa Clara (Mohebi's case) or even worse going to Qatar and warming the bench like Ghaedi and Hazbavi.

Here is where it goes all wrong:

• While IPL is getting better every year, the quality of European leagues is NIGHT AND DAY better than being in a team like Mes Rafsanjan or Sanat Naft where they have shitty quality coaching and tactics. This kind of football stunts our growth all the same. Our pitches suck, training grounds suck, facilities are bad, amongst many other issues.
• The reason people advocate for youth to go to Europe, is because of the high quality of pitches, and coaching, and competitive nature where you have to constantly improve and stay at your best fit.
• IPL COACHES don't give younger players a chance. Take a look at players like Salmani, Omri, Abdi, etc. These players rot on bench till they are way older and get stuck playing teams like Gol Gohar because European clubs don't want 25 year old bench warmers.

[PSGman#19]

Please do not forget where Iran was in 2010 vs where we are 13 years later in 2023. In 2010, Iran was ranked 64 in FIFA rankings. We used to regularly lose or tie to Arab teams like Iraq, Syria, UAE. Now we are ranked 22. What happened in those 13 years? We had strikers like AJ, Taremi, Azmoun go to Europe. Ezatolahi went to Atletico Madrid. Almost ALL of our 23 players in 2018 WC were part of European clubs, aside from 9 from IPL.

Don't forget Rezaian PLAYED in Europe before going to Qatar. He faced teams like Olympique Marseille as part of Oostende.

The problem comes down to this:

• Sure if you have talent and play for one of top 2-3 teams in IPL, I have no issue with you staying there and developing. Playing in teams like Esteghlal/Perspolis/Sepahan is preferable to going to a shitty 2nd tier Portuguese club like Santa Clara (Mohebi's case) or even worse going to Qatar and warming the bench like Ghaedi and Hazbavi.

Here is where it goes all wrong:

• While IPL is getting better every year, the quality of European leagues is NIGHT AND DAY better than being in a team like Mes Rafsanjan or Sanat Naft where they have shitty quality coaching and tactics. This kind of football stunts our growth all the same. Our pitches suck, training grounds suck, facilities are bad, amongst many other issues.
• The reason people advocate for youth to go to Europe, is because of the high quality of pitches, and coaching, and competitive nature where you have to constantly improve and stay at your best fit.
• IPL COACHES don't give younger players a chance. Take a look at players like Salmani, Omri, Abdi, etc. These players rot on bench till they are way older and get stuck playing teams like Gol Gohar because European clubs don't want 25 year old bench warmers.

Wc2010 failure was because of generational drought. Lack of Euro legionnaires back then was the results of this drought coupled to old players staying too long and international sanctions.

Wc02 was missed while we had plenty of euro legionnaires back then. IPL has shortcoming, specially with Yahya anti young racism but it is easier to fix it than expect something from outside. I may be wrong but I am convinced KSA last move and maybe the 7 goals Iranian teams will get scored by cr7 and his buddies will be a good wake up for our domestic football

[perspolis#1]

Wc2010 failure were because of generational drought. Lack of Euro legionnaires back then was the results of this drought coupled to old players staying too long and international sanctions.

Wc02 was missed while we had plenty of euro legionnaires back then. IPL has shortcoming, specially with Yahya anti young racism but it is easier to fix it than expect something from outside.

In the same breath if Gucci never existed we dont qualify for 2014.

Sure the Saudis make do with their players in their own leagues but they also have big level legionnaires playing in their leagues as well as world class coaches ready to go for a fat paycheck.

Iran doesn't have that draw which is why our legionnaires mostly play for unimportant peripheral Eastern European or SubSaharan African teams.

Anyone who is not willingly blind also should realize that in Iran nepotism reigns supreme so the best talents may never make it to the top levels of IPL.


It might be possible if our best players all played in IPL we even win Asian Cup somehow. In some instances though you will see at the World cup the dangers. The second you line up Cheshmi against a Bellingham you realize the exposure only helps our football grow.

[PSGman#19]

In the same breath if Gucci never existed we dont qualify for 2014.

Sure the Saudis make do with their players in their own leagues but they also have big level legionnaires playing in their leagues as well as world class coaches ready to go for a fat paycheck.

Iran doesn't have that draw which is why our legionnaires mostly play for unimportant peripheral Eastern European or SubSaharan African teams.

Anyone who is not willingly blind also should realize that in Iran nepotism reigns supreme so the best talents may never make it to the top levels of IPL.


It might be possible if our best players all played in IPL we even win Asian Cup somehow. In some instances though you will see at the World cup the dangers. The second you line up Cheshmi against a Bellingham you realize the exposure only helps our football grow.

Gucci and Dejagah came in the middle of our generational drought. IPL was weaker than now.

Most of members agree with the fact IPL improved compared to several years ago. I also think that way. I am sure it has to do with the fact that qatar/uae imported lot of stars. When Xabi and co come to Iran, beiro turned into Buffon, PP goes to ACL final, and Azadi became suddenly renovated for ACL final.

What a rival like KSA is doing is a pure koon soozi, much more than what little qatar/uae did and I expect Iranian football to wake up. Our domestic teams couldn't hide behind sanctions or TM. They will get punished more frequently than before, with more spotlights on them.

KSA has the potential to weaken Europe, where most of our players are the perfect scapegoat.

About the lately anti young policy, I think it has to do with some factors : covid canceling U competitions, ACL in concentrated place and time, PP/SS exclusion.

With all the u20, u23, u17 competitions coming back, ACL giving 3 or 4 IPL teams games every 3 days on the long run, it may change things

[Hosseini]

Yes and all you need to look at is our 2022 WCQ. Most of our goals scored by Taremi, Jahanbaksh and Azmoun. Without them we don't qualify. It's not a coincidence our best players play in Europe

[inarsenewetrust]

BS. Just bc some of these young guys now are too mentally fragile to suceed doesnt eliminate europes plus points.

The only legit performances we get besides 1 good game every 4 years from ramin are from established euro stars, or guys with extensive euro experience (Saeid). There were exceptions in CQ era bc he knew certain guys strengths very well, and had long time prepping them (amiri, ebrahimi) and even those 2 had euro quality all along. Amiri was rotation player even after WC at old age for Trabzon gunning for title, Ebrahimi was instrumental in helping Eupen avoid relegation in his only season there. Only other guy left from this crop of higher level domestics with clear euro quality is torabi.

And you can imagine if his hezbollahi ass wasnt so lazy and went to europe at a decent age that he would have been as much of a hit in europe as taremi...the guys quality is undeniable. Sadly, because of these dumb ideas that moving to europe is somehow going to "destroy" his career, nobody will know of torabi outside iran (where he is mainly disliked) and as a player he never got to fulfill his massive potential, never broke shitty old habits, never learned about proper professionalism, and never became a true star for TM like he should have. As CQ once asked, I dont know how a player of his quality still plays in asia...

New generation can and must try europe. If they fail, it is usually evidence they weren't shit to begin with...look at hosseinzadeh, we can only give thanks to charleroi for giving him a chance and decent minutes, they believed in him more than he believed in himself! The guy pussied out and now was so crap tractor benched him. Then you make long posts about why euro clubs prefer nigerian players to ours...LOL.

At least such failures in EU indicate a player's mentality is probably shitty and unless he puts up serious performances in ACL or in TM camps then other young guys should be given a chance. Hopefully soon Yadegar, HosseinNejad. In fact this is good policy for eliminating some guys from our calculations.

The people whos careers get "destroyed" in europe 90% of the time destroy themselves. Beiro being a moron and completely unprofessional from day 1 in belgium (look how he ended up in Iran, a serial divooneh who now decided to take up modelling...after knocking out his own teammates every other game for TM when coming to collect basic crosses. Europe didn't destroy him, the fame from the WC did!), hosseinzadeh being weak mentally, Noorafkan being garbage, Delfi being injury prone, etc.

[Pluto2000]

BS. Just bc some of these young guys now are too mentally fragile to suceed doesnt eliminate europes plus points.

The only legit performances we get besides 1 good game every 4 years from ramin are from established euro stars, or guys with extensive euro experience (Saeid). There were exceptions in CQ era bc he knew certain guys strengths very well, and had long time prepping them (amiri, ebrahimi) and even those 2 had euro quality all along. Amiri was rotation player even after WC at old age for Trabzon gunning for title, Ebrahimi was instrumental in helping Eupen avoid relegation in his only season there. We no longer even have midfielders on those guys level sadly besides Torabi.

New generation can and must try europe. If they fail, it is usually evidence they werent shit to begin with (look at hosseinzadeh, thanks charleroi for giving him a chance and decent minutes, the guy pussied out and now was so crap tractor benched him) and we should try other young players...soon Yadegar, HosseinNejad. In fact this is good policy for eliminating some guys from our calculations.

Agreed. In addition there is a difference between once in a lifetime generational players like AK8 that carry the whole team by themselves, versus having quality spread across the board from players who learned how to pass from EUFA coaches

[PSGman#19]

BS. Just bc some of these young guys now are too mentally fragile to suceed doesnt eliminate europes plus points.

The only legit performances we get besides 1 good game every 4 years from ramin are from established euro stars, or guys with extensive euro experience (Saeid). There were exceptions in CQ era bc he knew certain guys strengths very well, and had long time prepping them (amiri, ebrahimi) and even those 2 had euro quality all along. Amiri was rotation player even after WC at old age for Trabzon gunning for title, Ebrahimi was instrumental in helping Eupen avoid relegation in his only season there. Only other guy left from this crop of higher level domestics with clear euro quality is torabi.

And you can imagine if his hezbollahi ass wasnt so lazy and went to europe at a decent age that he would have been as much of a hit in europe as taremi...the guys quality is undeniable. Sadly, because of these dumb ideas that moving to europe is somehow going to "destroy" his career, nobody will know of torabi outside iran (where he is mainly disliked) and as a player he never got to fulfill his massive potential, never broke shitty old habits, never learned about proper professionalism, and never became a true star for TM like he should have. As CQ once asked, I dont know how a player of his quality still plays in asia...

New generation can and must try europe. If they fail, it is usually evidence they weren't shit to begin with...look at hosseinzadeh, we can only give thanks to charleroi for giving him a chance and decent minutes, they believed in him more than he believed in himself! The guy pussied out and now was so crap tractor benched him. Then you make long posts about why euro clubs prefer nigerian players to ours...LOL.

At least such failures in EU indicate a player's mentality is probably shitty and unless he puts up serious performances in ACL or in TM camps then other young guys should be given a chance. Hopefully soon Yadegar, HosseinNejad. In fact this is good policy for eliminating some guys from our calculations.

The people whos careers get "destroyed" in europe 90% of the time destroy themselves. Beiro being a moron and completely unprofessional from day 1 in belgium (look how he ended up in Iran, a serial divooneh who now decided to take up modelling...after knocking out his own teammates every other game for TM when coming to collect basic crosses. Europe didn't destroy him, the fame from the WC did!), hosseinzadeh being weak mentally, Noorafkan being garbage, Delfi being injury prone, etc.

The legit performance are from our best players not necessarily because they play in Europe. Except maybe Taremi that was clearly rafined in Portugal, nothing guarantee an IPL ezza wouldn't have been at least equal to a big belly Ezza playing in some shitty danish/belgian/russian team or division, when not getting injured there. Even Taremi was producing for TM when he didn't reach Europe btw.
Was it because of CQ, an IPL neku/ando combo were our best WC06 players, in front of our Bundesliga legionnaires, an IPL duo was our only scorer in WC06, and same with wc98?

All our players, even our bests, are not necessarily made to play in Europe or at least not a good fit in the very few team/league that give them a chance. It has to be a good fit. Just because Europe is supposed to be strong and IPL supposed to be shit, doesn't mean it is automatically a good thing for our players.

Maybe Torabi would have been crap in Charleroi or Santa Clara (who are the only kind of team to being interested), like he was crap in Qatar but good in IPL before and after. Who knows?

We mock our players that left Belgium (Charleroi is believed to be a very crappy place to live in) or far placed like santa clara but even Messi became shit because he had difficulties to adapt to a new city like Paris. Environment, luck, personal life there and a good fit with the staff/team/league matters. It is beyond the automatic Europe is good, our players are shit.

I don't agree with Beiro or some other destroying their own Euro career. He arrived in Belgium, a team and country that don't fit our players in general, in the middle of Covid, his arrival was delayed and antwerp bought a number 1 in the interval. More or same story in boavista. A dumb moron like the Argentina GK is playing in premier league and is world champion

[The]

Depends on the players age and where in Europe.

For every Jahanbakhsh grinding his way through a 2nd div team, there are numerous Makanis, Salimi, Asadis, Haghighis...

Believe it or not, PGPL is higher quality than some European leagues. Especially our bigger clubs. You can't tell me with a straight face playing in a bottom table in Finland, Norway, Croatia is better than top PGPL or even the Khaleeji countries.

So Although I do think more players should take European offers, I don't think our established players should lower themselves to trash clubs like Niazmand did and end up riding a bench for a coach who's not even qualified enough to coach a big Iranian club.

[PSGman#19]

Depends on the players age and where in Europe.

For every Jahanbakhsh grinding his way through a 2nd div team, there are numerous Makanis, Salimi, Asadis, Haghighis...

Believe it or not, PGPL is higher quality than some European leagues. Especially our bigger clubs. You can't tell me with a straight face playing in a bottom table in Finland, Norway, Croatia is better than top PGPL or even the Khaleeji countries.

So Although I do think more players should take European offers, I don't think our established players should lower themselves to trash clubs like Niazmand did and end up riding a bench for a coach who's not even qualified enough to coach a big Iranian club.

Speaking of Jahanbakhsh, he had quite a successful euro career, specially for Iran standard but it never translated well with big performance for TM. He had a couple of important goals in the last wcq and that's it. Shojaei 2.0

[Nokhodi]

Having seen this cycle several times I can make the following statements:

1 - Long term stays (longer than 6 months) in Qatar and UAE leads to considerable drops in form. One of the reasons we were so bad from 2008-12 was that all of the players who should have gone to Europe, went to UAE. Kazemian, Mobali, Madanchi, and anyone who could kick a ball went to play in a beer league. No matter how nice the fields, how much you're paid, who is even coaching... the football in UAE and Qatar is a disaster. Kanaani and Shoja also lost their spots in WC 2022 because they were goshad in Qatar.

2 - Playing and thriving in Persepolis, Esteghlal, Sepahan... is better than rotting the bench in mid-tier leagues. Our players are not robots. They are almost all confidence players who need to feel wanted, appreciated and also get lots of playing time. We need to aiming our ideal to be German or Italian players, but rather look at South America. No one would deny most South American players are at the very least just as good as West European players, but so many of them fizzle out because they are too used to their old neighborhoods, idiot friends, bimbos...

3 - The intangibles don't matter to most Iranian players. No amount of training in Europe will change a player's mentality if they can't handle that lifestyle. Guys like Jahanbakhsh made it in Europe because that was their goal from day one and they had advisors like Mahdavikia. Taremi only smartened up after he stopped wasting time on bimbos and stopped hanging out with his stupid circle of friends. The player themselves has to want it and be willing to sacrifice and put the work in. They mostly make more money in Iran and have a better time there despite the social and cultural restrictions. They are like celebrities in Iran.

4 - The main advantage of being a legionnaire is playing against consistently good opponents at a high level. If you're not in a good league, or don't have a path to get to a good league - it's not worth it. Due to our football being closed off both in terms of clubs and the national team, the only other time we play really good teams is the World Cup. A few months of good preparation is no substitute for having a team full of players who played weekly against elite players.

5 - Our coaches have never been more cowardly. If a young player can't guarantee a starting spot in the big clubs, they are better off playing a mid-tier PGPL club, cementing their position and then looking at a move to EUrope. If they don't want to do that, then they won't be the ideal player we are all talking about.

6 - Being a legionnaire is not a be all and end all. I know I'm repeating myself but if you're a goshad player (and its not just isolated to Iranians inside Iran), you will never make it unless you have world class talent. Ali Karimi was lazy and didn't even like football, but he was so damn good everyone wanted him. No one is going to care for your if you don't have that talent, but have the same attitude.
From 1998-2002 we had a bunch of legionnaires - besides the usual big names, Bayer Leverkusen took Pashazadeh, Ali Mousavi, Dariush Yazdani... Pashazadeh suffered a horrible injury, and the other 2 were showing up late to practice because they were allegedly hooking up with bimbos at clubs every night!
We then missed out on World Cup 2002 which to this day had the most solid midfield and attack TM has ever had.

In short - playing time matters, but so does the opponent and level.

[PSGman#19]

Having seen this cycle several times I can make the following statements:

1 - Long term stays (longer than 6 months) in Qatar and UAE leads to considerable drops in form. One of the reasons we were so bad from 2008-12 was that all of the players who should have gone to Europe, went to UAE. Kazemian, Mobali, Madanchi, and anyone who could kick a ball went to play in a beer league. No matter how nice the fields, how much you're paid, who is even coaching... the football in UAE and Qatar is a disaster. Kanaani and Shoja also lost their spots in WC 2022 because they were goshad in Qatar.

2 - Playing and thriving in Persepolis, Esteghlal, Sepahan... is better than rotting the bench in mid-tier leagues. Our players are not robots. They are almost all confidence players who need to feel wanted, appreciated and also get lots of playing time. We need to aiming our ideal to be German or Italian players, but rather look at South America. No one would deny most South American players are at the very least just as good as West European players, but so many of them fizzle out because they are too used to their old neighborhoods, idiot friends, bimbos...

3 - The intangibles don't matter to most Iranian players. No amount of training in Europe will change a player's mentality if they can't handle that lifestyle. Guys like Jahanbakhsh made it in Europe because that was their goal from day one and they had advisors like Mahdavikia. Taremi only smartened up after he stopped wasting time on bimbos and stopped hanging out with his stupid circle of friends. The player themselves has to want it and be willing to sacrifice and put the work in. They mostly make more money in Iran and have a better time there despite the social and cultural restrictions. They are like celebrities in Iran.

4 - The main advantage of being a legionnaire is playing against consistently good opponents at a high level. If you're not in a good league, or don't have a path to get to a good league - it's not worth it. Due to our football being closed off both in terms of clubs and the national team, the only other time we play really good teams is the World Cup. A few months of good preparation is no substitute for having a team full of players who played weekly against elite players.

5 - Our coaches have never been more cowardly. If a young player can't guarantee a starting spot in the big clubs, they are better off playing a mid-tier PGPL club, cementing their position and then looking at a move to EUrope. If they don't want to do that, then they won't be the ideal player we are all talking about.

6 - Being a legionnaire is not a be all and end all. I know I'm repeating myself but if you're a goshad player (and its not just isolated to Iranians inside Iran), you will never make it unless you have world class talent. Ali Karimi was lazy and didn't even like football, but he was so damn good everyone wanted him. No one is going to care for your if you don't have that talent, but have the same attitude.
From 1998-2002 we had a bunch of legionnaires - besides the usual big names, Bayer Leverkusen took Pashazadeh, Ali Mousavi, Dariush Yazdani... Pashazadeh suffered a horrible injury, and the other 2 were showing up late to practice because they were allegedly hooking up with bimbos at clubs every night!
We then missed out on World Cup 2002 which to this day had the most solid midfield and attack TM has ever had.

In short - playing time matters, but so does the opponent and level.

1. UAE is weaker than IPL as a whole, see ACL results (even if TS lose tomorrow). About Qatar, it is pretty comparable to IPL. Kanaani and Shoja lost their starting spot at WC22, because CQ don't trust/like them as a whole.

2. it is true we are comparable to South American, however we don't have the same connection with Europe than them. If Europe imported crazy number of iranian like they do with some overrated south americans, our situation would have been different. One of our problem is that Spain, Italy and even Turkey have zero interest for our players. It doesn't guarantee anything but their style fit our players much more than England, Championship, Belgium..

4. Hopefully ACL will provide much more quality opposition, and more IPL clubs will search for friendlies with turkish and Russian clubs.

6. AK8 was wonderful with TM while playing at UAE. He was litterally toying Germany NT and Roma while being playing in a weak league. Not only he got injuried at Bayern but also didn't play than well for TM during. His game litterraly changed during his time in Germany and not in a good way. I see the same bad evolution for Hosseinzadeh which was a bomb at SS but became so shy and neutral in belgium

[a_m]

We need to have at least 25 legionaries, and at least 15 of them play regularly,,, for use to be competitive at all …

[Doctor DOOM]

Simple answer to a valid question:
Yes.
I cant bring up the examples of younger (under 23-24) players who went to Europe since there isnt much history of their game before that time, NO THANKS to generally IPL coaches favoring older players to young ones.
But focusing on those who did have a career before going Europe, I'd say yes. We should continue to send players there if possible or given a choice. Even if the money isnt as good as PG leagues.

Why?
Compare what Ali Karimi's game & performance (I'm not talking about just mindlessly dribbling) was before joining Bayern and after.
He became a completely new player, in service of the team, even in defense & organization.

Look at taremi before Portugal and after going to Portugal. A world of difference.

But it all depends on the dedication of the players as well. If they go there to merely have fun, make some money and claim they're legionnaires, then they will fail and come back with their tails between their legs.
But IF they dedicate themselves and commit to the rigors of training like many (Daei, Kia, VH, Minavand, Pashazadeh, JB, Taremi, .... ) then they give themselves a good chance to make a success of themselves


***
Having said that, given the pariah tag of Iran (due to the terrorist regime), even our most dedicated players have to overcome a massive handicap to even be considered alongside some very average, mediocre Africans/SouthAm players!!!
This factor our lads have no control of. And we'll continue to bear this massive handicap as long as this regime exists