How good could we be if....?

[PSGman#19]

The doctor/mohandes thing is exagerrate imo. Ok we don't have the same number of diaspora than africans and most of ours are from middle class. Still we have/had plenty of kids in Dortmund, Leverkusen, Koln academies, Sweden and noone end up being good players, let alone top players.

Even if we focused on our 2 melliatis. Why Dejagah (not the doctor/mohandes kind of iranian), Zandi, Ghoddos, Arzani, Beitashour, Safari, Gucci never reached the top level? Why didn't they even reach Taremi/Azmoun level (let's say Dejagah did)?

Our internal situation doesn't help, but I think our problem is beyond that.

[ShiroKhorshid]

Sorry, we never had plenty of players in european academies. Even right at this moment, i dont think we have more than 5 iranians in u17 or u19 Bundesliga, which is basically next to nothing.

The difference between youth & mens football is huge. 80% of these u17 or u19 academy players end up playing in lower amateur divisions by the time they 20, 21. A lot of them even stop playing.

If we had 20 or 25 iranians in youth Bundesliga right now, maybe 1, max. 2 of them would become a Dejagah.

[Keano]

"Its amazing that Iran whit all its problems and lack of support and football infrastructure still produces top asian players and still beats the best team in asia ( japan) imagine if they had the same infrastructure and support as Japan and South Korea have "

Quoted the commentator last night.

What do you guys think? How good of a footballing nation could we be if we had a new government that would support our football like Japan and South Korea gets in their countries?

Out of curiosity what TV's commentators made that comment?

In regards to your question, had the pathetic IR not taken over the country in 1978, decades ago we would have been one of the top 5 strongest economies and most respected nations of the world. One of many of its outcomes would have been amazing sporting infrastructures, football being one indeed.

All the never-ending regressions and tragedies started right after that ominous 1978 rebellion!


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[PSGman#19]

Sorry, we never had plenty of players in european academies. Even right at this moment, i dont think we have more than 5 iranians in u17 or u19 Bundesliga, which is basically next to nothing.

The difference between youth & mens football is huge. 80% of these u17 or u19 academy players end up playing in lower amateur divisions by the time they 20, 21. A lot of them even stop playing.

If we had 20 or 25 iranians in youth Bundesliga right now, maybe 1, max. 2 of them would become a Dejagah.

How many iranians we had in Euro academies to get a Dejagah at that time? How many tennis players Serbia had when Djokovic starts to win everything?

[ShiroKhorshid]

How many iranians we had in Euro academies to get a Dejagah at that time? How many tennis players Serbia had when Djokovic starts to win everything?

Obviously, a Dejagah can pop out of nowhere, just like Taremi popped out of nowhere from Bushehr. But the truth for even a top acedemy (to stick to Germany, lets say Dortmund or Leverkusen) at the last stage (u19) is somethin like this 5 years later.

Out of lets say 23 players: One or two will be playing Bundesliga or any other top league. 2 or 3 will be playing in Bundesliga 2 or 3 or a smaller EU league (Than can be anything from Hungary to Norway to Netherlands, ...).


Five, six of them will be playing in higher amatuer divisions where they get paid a little something. The rest of them (basically half the team) will have either stopped playing altogether or just be studying/working regular jobs and playing sunday league for fun.

This is the truth of transition from youth to mens football. And thats why we need wayy wayyy more players in youth academies around Europe if want more Dejagah's, Zandis or Guccis.

[Artaxerxes]

Out of curiosity what TV's commentators made that comment?

In regards to your question, had the pathetic IR not taken over the country in 1978, decades ago we would have been one of the top 5 strongest economies and most respected nations of the world. One of many of its outcomes would have been amazing sporting infrastructures, football being one indeed.

All the never-ending regressions and tragedies started right after that ominous 1978 rebellion!


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The English commentators on Telia sport ( i live in sweden)

I agree whit all you wrote about 1979 , that is also the reasons why the west helped to remove the shah, because they knew we would become a real powerhouse, and that is also why they sleep whit I.R and dont support our people to overthrow I.R.

They installed the cancer and will feed it until the day we iranians unite for real in millions, then I.R will end up in the trashcan .

[PSGman#19]

Imo the cultural, behaviour and mental shortcomings are bigger problems for our football and as a whole. From ozgal dahatis inside Iran to rich diasporas born in the best western countries, we have some big shortcomings everywhere. We have lot of players born in Iran and moved pretty early in Europe that didn't use their full potential. Same with iranian born in Europe like Dejagah or Ghoddos. Is it because of Iran internal situation Ghoddos went in the Huesca/Amiens mess? At the opposite, some forever IPL players reach a very high level (Jalal Hosseini, Amiri, even Torabi). Of course, you are going to say, if they moved to Europe blabla. We saw with Delfi, Hosseinzadeh,... than Europe isn't automatically equal to progress and success.

Countries with worse situation than us make better or equal to us. Some countries with better situation don't do much better than us. In football, everything isn't logical or automatical, even if I reckon it can help.

[perspolis#1]

Imo the cultural, behaviour and mental shortcomings are bigger problems for our football and as a whole. From ozgal dahatis inside Iran to rich diasporas born in the best western countries, we have some big shortcomings everywhere. We have lot of players born in Iran and moved pretty early in Europe that didn't use their full potential. Same with iranian born in Europe like Dejagah or Ghoddos. Is it because of Iran internal situation Ghoddos went in the Huesca/Amiens mess? At the opposite, some forever IPL players reach a very high level (Jalal Hosseini, Amiri, even Torabi). Of course, you are going to say, if they moved to Europe blabla. We saw with Delfi, Hosseinzadeh,... than Europe isn't automatically equal to progress and success.

Countries with worse situation than us make better or equal to us. Some countries with better situation don't do much better than us. In football, everything isn't logical or automatical, even if I reckon it can help.

Academies that teach basics and football IQ etc at a young age fixes problems regardless of how diaspora does.

Right now most players in top half of JLeague can walk into the squad for Persepolis, Sepahan, Esteghlal. This wasnt the case in the 90s and its because of long term planning. Their player baseline is because their youth players are better at the basics.

Watch PGL and count in one games how many shots are launched into khomeinis face on the moon or crosses blasted out for goalkicks, errant passes, Goalkeeper sootis etc.

[koorosh]

The English commentators on Telia sport ( i live in sweden)

I agree whit all you wrote about 1979 , that is also the reasons why the west helped to remove the shah, because they knew we would become a real powerhouse, and that is also why they sleep whit I.R and dont support our people to overthrow I.R.

They installed the cancer and will feed it until the day we iranians unite for real in millions, then I.R will end up in the trashcan .

By " they " you mean "us", because first and foremost, We removed the old regime and brought this cancer onto ourselves. It was as popular a revolution as any in history. When we deny our role in it, we propagate its existence and its recurrence.

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[koorosh]

Lots of good points made here. I might add that the majority of our diaspora landed in the two countries which didn't support football, the real one. Speaking on my own behalf, academies and teams did not exist in most of Canada except at the high school and university level. And watching football was limited to the world cup every four years!

Now they do, albeit weakly, and that's why there are lots of new Iranians at the higher levels of amateur and pro soccer in NA.



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[Artaxerxes]

By " they " you mean "us", because first and foremost, We removed the old regime and brought this cancer onto ourselves. It was as popular a revolution as any in history. When we deny our role in it, we propagate its existence and its recurrence.

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Yes I hear you, but whitout the U.S, England and France support these I.R monkeys would never succed to hijack the country, why do you think mahsa amini revolution failed to overthrow I.R? The majority of the people inside Iran want them gone.

Its because our people dont have the international communities support, thats why I.R didint collapse politicaly.

[Surenas]

South Korea invests so much and has a good team and what have they got out of it? Their last continental victory was even longer ago than ours. I would look at the whole thing on several levels:

1) Asia's football has developed rapidly, since the era in which we won, many teams have joined, after us came Saudi Arabia, Japan (80s-90s). From the 2000s onwards, teams like Iraq and Uzbekistan became noticeable, and since Australia entered the scene, the old superpowers Iran and South Korea have been joined by a considerable number of competitors. In recent years the trend has become even more noticeable, more and more teams in Asia are becoming more serious, nobody would underestimate teams like Vietnam, Thailand, Tajikistan, Jordan, Oman, Qatar anymore, all these teams can put pressure on the top teams on a good day. It's just unusual what expectations people have of Iran. In Europe, there are also Italy, the Netherlands, France, Germany, England, optionally Belgium, Portugal, etc., but no one would say that because these teams all have what it takes to win the Cup, they have to win it every time. Even in Asia, since the density of good teams has increased, let's say from 2007 onwards, which big teams have really won the Cup?

2007: Iraq
2011: Japan
2015: Australia
2019: Qatar
2024: Qatar/Jordan

Apart from Australia playing at home, none of the top teams have won this cup since 2011.

Saudi Arabia hasn't won the cup since 1996, South Korea since 1960, and we haven't won it since 1976. Even Japan, whose victory doesn't sound that far away, will have won it 17 years ago in 2028 when the next AC takes place. A top team like the Netherlands hasn't won the Cup since 1988, and England has never won it. We have to stop being so arrogant and thinking that we are predestined to become Asian champions every time.

2) Even if we had top education and high investment, like Japan, Iran would only be partially successful. Germany, a country that invests an enormous amount in its football, is not a serial champion in all competitions, on the contrary, since 2018 German football has been in a desolate state despite a top infrastructure.

3) If you take all points into account, Iran fails on other important points, namely we suffer from the same problem as Japan and South Korea, we become cocky because we think our players play in Europe and the rest of the Asian teams can't play football. But football is much more than just the quality of individual players, focussing on our legionnaires is what makes our team so predictable (same issue SK & Japan) have. We give the legionnaires an enormous focus on participation and undermine our coach in the process, like seen with Skocic.
On the other hand, our players like a coach like Ghalenoei who does everything they tell him to do. What Iran is missing is a proper, good system; the players, regardless of whether they are Prime Ronaldinho or not, have to submit to this system without being asked. We need coaches with expertise, and this doesn't exist in Iran, so we have to rely on help from abroad. Ironically, with a younger group that doesn't have any special stars, we wouldn't have actually done worse. Then there is a big mentality problem, we don't deal well with pressure as a collective, this team has one thing that unfortunately characterizes them negatively, they always fail in the critical moments:

2014: Argentina, 2018: Portugal, 2019: Japan, 2023: USA, 2024: Qatar

In short, whenever it becomes relevant, the team breaks down mentally and this is the main point of the work that we have to focus on; this requires quality in the position of the coaching team.

[Artaxerxes]

South Korea invests so much and has a good team and what have they got out of it? Their last continental victory was even longer ago than ours. I would look at the whole thing on several levels:

1) Asia's football has developed rapidly, since the era in which we won, many teams have joined, after us came Saudi Arabia, Japan (80s-90s). From the 2000s onwards, teams like Iraq and Uzbekistan became noticeable, and since Australia entered the scene, the old superpowers Iran and South Korea have been joined by a considerable number of competitors. In recent years the trend has become even more noticeable, more and more teams in Asia are becoming more serious, nobody would underestimate teams like Vietnam, Thailand, Tajikistan, Jordan, Oman, Qatar anymore, all these teams can put pressure on the top teams on a good day. It's just unusual what expectations people have of Iran. In Europe, there are also Italy, the Netherlands, France, Germany, England, optionally Belgium, Portugal, etc., but no one would say that because these teams all have what it takes to win the Cup, they have to win it every time. Even in Asia, since the density of good teams has increased, let's say from 2007 onwards, which big teams have really won the Cup?

2007: Iraq
2011: Japan
2015: Australia
2019: Qatar
2024: Qatar/Jordan

Apart from Australia playing at home, none of the top teams have won this cup since 2011.

Saudi Arabia hasn't won the cup since 1996, South Korea since 1960, and we haven't won it since 1976. Even Japan, whose victory doesn't sound that far away, will have won it 17 years ago in 2028 when the next AC takes place. A top team like the Netherlands hasn't won the Cup since 1988, and England has never won it. We have to stop being so arrogant and thinking that we are predestined to become Asian champions every time.

2) Even if we had top education and high investment, like Japan, Iran would only be partially successful. Germany, a country that invests an enormous amount in its football, is not a serial champion in all competitions, on the contrary, since 2018 German football has been in a desolate state despite a top infrastructure.

3) If you take all points into account, Iran fails on other important points, namely we suffer from the same problem as Japan and South Korea, we become cocky because we think our players play in Europe and the rest of the Asian teams can't play football. But football is much more than just the quality of individual players, focussing on our legionnaires is what makes our team so predictable (same issue SK & Japan) have. We give the legionnaires an enormous focus on participation and undermine our coach in the process, like seen with Skocic.
On the other hand, our players like a coach like Ghalenoei who does everything they tell him to do. What Iran is missing is a proper, good system; the players, regardless of whether they are Prime Ronaldinho or not, have to submit to this system without being asked. We need coaches with expertise, and this doesn't exist in Iran, so we have to rely on help from abroad. Ironically, with a younger group that doesn't have any special stars, we wouldn't have actually done worse. Then there is a big mentality problem, we don't deal well with pressure as a collective, this team has one thing that unfortunately characterizes them negatively, they always fail in the critical moments:

2014: Argentina, 2018: Portugal, 2019: Japan, 2023: USA, 2024: Qatar

In short, whenever it becomes relevant, the team breaks down mentally and this is the main point of the work that we have to focus on; this requires quality in the position of the coaching team.

Good points!

[koorosh]

Yes I hear you, but whitout the U.S, England and France support these I.R monkeys would never succed to hijack the country, why do you think mahsa amini revolution failed to overthrow I.R? The majority of the people inside Iran want them gone.

Its because our people dont have the international communities support, thats why I.R didint collapse politicaly.

We are digressing from the main business of discussing football and I apologize for that. Forget external actors. Mahsa movement died because only 1% of that internal opposition put themselves at real risk. If only 10% of the opposition would be on the streets, IR would disappear. We have not reached a point where enough people would risk their livelihoods and their lives and hence IR lives.

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[ShiroKhorshid]

Watch PGL and count in one games how many shots are launched into khomeinis face on the moon or crosses blasted out for goalkicks, errant passes, Goalkeeper sootis etc.