TM-News-

[Bi-honar]

Ba-honar jaan, you say you are not calling anyone bot-parast, but here's a quote from your earlier post "The bot parasti mentality has always been our biggest cultural problem and it obviously continues. People do not exist in between hero and zero - they have to be either infallible or nothing".

Yes, there was a time that people in general, not just us Iranians, made bots (idols) out of people (Cyrus, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, King Richard, Mahatma Gandhi, the Shah, Khomeini, Moghades, etc.), as you can see bot-parasti was not only limited to our people.

This is no longer the case, information/education has made it possible for most people to make informed decision based on their own perspectives. Another reason is having the freedom necessary to decipher for oneself right from wrong. No one is immune anymore, in other words, even the Pope, Khomeini, Pahlavi, the Queen, no one ... and I mean no one is considered a bot or an idol anymore.

I respectfully disagree Arya jaan when it comes to Iran. You can NOT criticize Khamenei in Iran, nor could you criticize the Shah before without there being some repercussions. You see pictures of Khamenei and Khomeini plastered all over Iran, in every office, every stadium and even in homes. There were statues of R & M Pahlavi all over Iran.

But you don't need to even go that far. Just take any discussion in any Iranian forum about IR or the Shah or Mossadegh or many others and see how everyone gravitates to the two extremes. Try to tell the saltanat talabs that the Shah did some things wrong, or tell IR supporters that Khamenei's doing something wrong and good luck with finding a happy medium!

At any rate, I think we've beaten this bot-parasti issue to death and I already apologized for the comment if anyone felt it was directed at them personally. I'm not sure I can do much more beyond that apology at this point or why we need to keep talking about it - I'm obviously not going to hang myself for it!

This is why there are oppositions, ones who agree and others who do not agree with an individual. On that note, just because someone agrees with another's perspective this does not mean that they feel the individual can do no wrong. Case in point, personally speaking I do like many things that CQ has introduced to our footballing culture, but he is not perfect, as no one is. He has made decisions in the past, be it player selection (Shojaie, Nouri, Zareh, etc.) that I did not understand or agree with at times, or certain team formations that he may field at times that I don't necessarily care for. I guess what I'm arriving at is that I think everyone here is intelligent enough to make up their own mind and I don't believe anyone here truly believes that CQ can do no wrong, nor agrees with everything that CQ says or does. Of course there are individuals whom are labeled as heroes based on some of their accomplishments, and as such are idolized by certain individuals, but this cannot be labeled bot-parasti. This is quite normal in any culture, every one of us knows an individual whom we can associate with, and may use as an example, but as I've stated previously, no one is without flaws, even our heroes.

Again, I respectfully disagree with the underlined part. I have heard the "CQ is a professional coach and therefore if you don't agree with what he does you're an armchair coach or Playstation expert" one too many times. I do of course appreciate that you are open minded enough to look at as an exchange of ideas and opinions.

As for his latest contract negotiations, as I recall CQ was agreeable in meeting with the coaching/training staff for our youth teams as needed, which he is obviously doing, as noted based on Khakpoor's recent interview. Not sure what other kind of help you are expecting he provide to our youth coaches, but as the full details for such meetings are not published anywhere, it would be wrong for us to suggest "he hasn't provided much help".

I'm not aware of anything he has done to help and we're exchanging a lot of news on this forum. If you know something I don't, I'm of course open to listening.

I believe that you and I both are concerned about our youth programs, which are somewhat nonexistent. The IFF and our government will need to invest heavily in grassroots programs if Iran is to reap the benefits in the long run.

Agreed.

I say again our Olympic team does/should not need these two footballers to make it out of her group, especially since we are playing on home soil.

Well, this is a matter of opinion and we obviously don't agree on this. I think we've all agreed before that we should NEVER underestimate our opponents. So, I don't understand why we should underestimate them in this particular case or on what basis you think that we're just going to run over every team in our group, that a single goal by a talented Azmoun will definitely not make a difference to our campaign?

In my opinion Azmun and Jahanbakhsh missing a couple of monster friendlies are a big deal. They need big match exposure if they are to start in place of Gucci, and others at Russia 2018. Yes I do realize that the actual WC is not for another 3 years, but the qualification rounds start in June of this year, and continue through the next couple of years, and as you know these will also be serving as the 2019 Asian Cup qualifiers for us. Meanwhile, the Olympic qualifiers will start later this month and the knockout stages will likely continue throughout the year. So in between their club duties, you would like Azmun, and Jahanbakhsh to play in the U23 group stage, as well as the FIFA WC/Asian Cup qualifiers. I'm sorry but that's the perfect recipe for disaster. The two will be burnt-out by the time Russia 2018 and the Asian Cup roles around.

Sure, that's a big deal to me too and I don't at all disagree with the arguments that JB and Azmoun playing with TM will be beneficial to both the team and the players. I just don't agree that the benefit of them playing for TM in a couple of friendlies outweighs the benefit of them playing for TM Omid in a very important international tournament.

These two have moved on from Omid, there are other worthy youngsters in our huge country of 70 million that deserve to and have be called up who can showcase their stuff and the continental stage. I say again, in my opinion including these two in the U23 qualifiers could prove counter productive, not only for the players themselves, but also for both the Omid as well as our senior teams, not to mention it would do very little in allowing this administration to revamp our youth system.

We can of course use the same argument for TM, that from a country of 70 million with so many worthy players, CQ shouldn't have a problem taking a couple of talented over 22 players - we honestly don't have a shortage in this area and it's not the end of the world if a couple of new players get some much needed exposure to high-profile international matches, like JB and Azmoun already have.

At the end of the day, isn't that the reason for friendlies to try out new things and give some new players some international exposure?! I think we all agree that the result of friendlies is not that important, so if Azmoun is there and scores a goal or Sharifi or Taromi miss that same but gain some valuable experience, the latter is more important to me, although I appreciate it may not be to you.

Anyway, we're just repeating and going over the same arguments over and over again. Both sides have presented their arguments, let's just leave it there. If you like to respond to this post, I will gladly read it, but I won't be responding to any more posts about JB and Azmoun, not spam this thread any more than I already have.

[Abtin]

People, can we bleaze calm the f**k down with these long posts?

[Bi-honar]

Apparently CQ had some allergies, so he didn't go to the stadium to watch the Naft-EsEs game.

[O-ZoNe]

^ And THAT is why the Playstation Experts around here deserve every ounce of the ridicule they get Lacking knowledge is the least of their problems... most of them can't even read!

Playstation expert me? LOL...guess your 235 posts make you qualified to make that comment. Btw nice rebuke considering I haven't owned a gaming console in over 25 years This post is exactly what is wrong with our footballing culture. Need I say more?

He has time and time again proved everyone including myself wrong about his decisions. Everyone was complaining when he invited "Pooladi" but he turned out to be the best player. Everyone was crying when Karimi and Rahmati was left out of TM list before WCQ and we managed to qualify without those guys. Everyone was debating weather to have Ahmadi or Davari as our number 1 goal keeper and he surprised everyone with Haghighi and it turned out to be a good decision too.
Just because we don't understand the process of his decision doesn't mean he's wrong.

Just because we question a decision he has made, doesn't make us support him or TM less than others. Btw, while he has proven time after time to be "right" in your view, I wonder what the history books will say? How are you measuring him being right? The number of tournaments our TM has won under his reign? Or is it the number of objective goals we met, i.e., for you is right just qualifying to the WC? Because in that sense, well all our past TM coaches who made it to the WC should also not be questioned. Don't forget, many of our coaches did wonders without having the likes of Hashemian, Dejagah for a number for years, and others in the lineup as well. So far his WC record matches Branko's and is worst by 2 points compared to Talebi's. His AC record, however hard done, is poorer than Branko's who was also screwed out of a championship by a referee. I wonder, could CQ have shut his trap in the group stage, knowing how AFC is and chances of having the same ref 2x, would things in the R16 have gone differently for him? His professionalism off the pitch is questionable for me...I mean in pro sports you know never to talk negatively about the other team, or ref after a win...because a win is a win and that is all that matters...but he chose to run his mouth about the ref who savored the chance to get back at us...and it cost us (not CQ) dearly! If Branko, Daei, Ghotbi, or any other coach made that mistake, we would be asking for his head...Food for thought.

[ARYA :)]

I respectfully disagree Arya jaan when it comes to Iran. You can NOT criticize Khamenei in Iran, nor could you criticize the Shah before without there being some repercussions. You see pictures of Khamenei and Khomeini plastered all over Iran, in every office, every stadium and even in homes. There were statues of R & M Pahlavi all over Iran.
But you don't need to even go that far. Just take any discussion in any Iranian forum about IR or the Shah or Mossadegh or many others and see how everyone gravitates to the two extremes. Try to tell the saltanat talabs that the Shah did some things wrong, or tell IR supporters that Khamenei's doing something wrong and good luck with finding a happy medium!

This is not called bot-parasti, it's called opposition, there are and will continue to be opposition groups in all walks of life, and as for the repercussions handed out by those in charge, this is called oppression and tyranny.

Again, I respectfully disagree with the underlined part. I have heard the "CQ is a professional coach and therefore if you don't agree with what he does you're an armchair coach or Playstation expert" one too many times. I do of course appreciate that you are open minded enough to look at as an exchange of ideas and opinions.

You are quoting one or two individuals, whom do not represent the masses.

I'm not aware of anything he has done to help and we're exchanging a lot of news on this forum. If you know something I don't, I'm of course open to listening.

Exactly my point, just because you or I have not been privy to the context of such meetings as they have not been publicized, this does not mean there has been no efforts in this regard. The fact that they are meeting should tell us that there have been efforts made in this area.

Well, this is a matter of opinion and we obviously don't agree on this. I think we've all agreed before that we should NEVER underestimate our opponents. So, I don't understand why we should underestimate them in this particular case or on what basis you think that we're just going to run over every team in our group, that a single goal by a talented Azmoun will definitely not make a difference to our campaign?

Never in any of my posts did I suggest that we should be able to walk over any of our opponants. What I stated was that we should not need these two footballers to advance from this group on home soil, and if we can't due to two footballers we simply don't deserve to go to the Olympics.

We can of course use the same argument for TM, that from a country of 70 million with so many worthy players, CQ shouldn't have a problem taking a couple of talented over 22 players - we honestly don't have a shortage in this area and it's not the end of the world if a couple of new players get some much needed exposure to high-profile international matches, like JB and Azmoun already have.
At the end of the day, isn't that the reason for friendlies to try out new things and give some new players some international exposure?! I think we all agree that the result of friendlies is not that important, so if Azmoun is there and scores a goal or Sharifi or Taromi miss that same but gain some valuable experience, the latter is more important to me, although I appreciate it may not be to you.
Anyway, we're just repeating and going over the same arguments over and over again. Both sides have presented their arguments, let's just leave it there. If you like to respond to this post, I will gladly read it, but I won't be responding to any more posts about JB and Azmoun, not spam this thread any more than I already have.

[TruPersian]

I wonder who gets the last word? :bs:

[xerexes]

Playstation expert me? LOL...guess your 235 posts make you qualified to make that comment. Btw nice rebuke considering I haven't owned a gaming console in over 25 years This post is exactly what is wrong with our footballing culture. Need I say more?

Oh there are a lot of things wrong with our footballing culture buddy: Some of us still don't get the difference between counterattacking football and parking the bus even after the difference has been explained countless times. We insist 'we were content not to play' in a match where we not only won but actually outshot the opponent 4 to zero and had 3 times as many corners as them. We have no clue how standard it is for players to not take part in more than one national team, even after we lost one of our best talents to not following this rule very recently. We think questioning people's intelligence, patriotism and self-esteem is no big deal but making jokes about their football knowledge is out of line... or that we think a person's knowledge of football depends on their number of posts.

[eerooni]

Apparently CQ had some allergies, so he didn't go to the stadium to watch the Naft-EsEs game.

Looks like CQ might end up leaving if the so called friendlies are cancelled and the camps will no lnger take place! I don't blame the guy, IRI steals billions but no one in Irans power position has any gheyrat to allocate a few million dollars to ensure our National team( emphasis on the word NATIONAL) has adequate preparation

It will be a tragedy if CQ leaves....

[Doctor DOOM]

We seem to take everything at literal value here. Which is rather disappointing since it seems some of us don't even know what they are doing and how it is perceived by others!!!

When some of us behave as if x is beyond doubt or question, that, my friends, is indeed ''bott parasti''. Even if we don't like to acknowledge it. I'm afraid actions speak louder than any words of acknowledgment.... or denial, as is the case here


Sycophancy is rather unattractive

[Ando Teymourian]

We seem to take everything at literal value here. Which is rather disappointing

When some of us behave as of x is beyond doubt or question, that, my friends, is indeed ''bott parasti''. Even if we don't like to acknowledge it. I'm afraid actions speak louder than any words of acknowledgment.

Sycophancy is rather unattractive

Who is saying he is beyond doubt? Who said that? You have gotten a large number of valid responses as to why JB and AZ should stay with senior team.

You are the one who automatically gets upset when anyone has the same line of thought as CQ. (and again, CQ hasn't even said much on this matter, people are giving their own reasons)

[Ando Teymourian]

His professionalism off the pitch is questionable for me...I mean in pro sports you know never to talk negatively about the other team, or ref after a win...because a win is a win and that is all that matters...but he chose to run his mouth about the ref who savored the chance to get back at us...and it cost us (not CQ) dearly! If Branko, Daei, Ghotbi, or any other coach made that mistake, we would be asking for his head...Food for thought.

This is happening too much. People are exaggerating the reality of what actually happened in order to support their argument.

The way you are describing the situation makes it seem like he went on an angry tirade on TV. All he did was allude to the fact that we were getting elbowed up high. Which any coach, CQ, Branko, Daei, GN, or Ghotbi have the right to do without fearing retribution in the future from a bitter, bitch ass referee.

[St_Mark]

Likewise my friend. Your posts are nothing but silly immature melodramatic nonsense from a simpleton with no logic or basic knowledge!!!

Since you don't seem to understand it any other way, maybe you will with the same colorful adjectives you have used just in this past few pages in this thread!!!

Dear BI-Honar:

FIFA rules are very clear, requirement, eligibility for Olympic games ( in this case U22-3). Age is only factor and nothing to do with traditions of any country , any other argument is diversion from the facts and untrue..
As long as player is of that age he can play whether he is member of national team or not.

Is JB & SA bigger than LM? Iran bigger than Spain or Argentina?


.On August 17, 2005

Leo FRANCO, Lionel SCALONI, Roberto AYALA, Gabriel HEINZE, Juan Pablo SORIN, Lucho GONZALEZ, Lucas BERNARDI, Maxi RODRIGUEZ, Andres D'ALESSANDRO, Lisandro LOPEZ and Hernan CRESPO.

With Argentina leading 2-1 (goals from Maxi RODRIGUEZ and a header from Gabriel HEINZE), Jose PEKERMAN brought on youngster Lionel MESSI to give him his international debut for Argentina. At the time, Spain were after MESSI (they tried to get him to play for their youth side as well as their senior side) but MESSI decided to play for Argentina. In any case, MESSI, who was 18 at the time, gets substituted in for Lisandro LOPEZ and well...

Argentina

96

-45

[ShiroKhorshid]

Haha, i can clearly remember that match. He got subbed in and got a red card few minutes later.

[O-ZoNe]

TM-News-

This is happening too much. People are exaggerating the reality of what actually happened in order to support their argument.

The way you are describing the situation makes it seem like he went on an angry tirade on TV. All he did was allude to the fact that we were getting elbowed up high. Which any coach, CQ, Branko, Daei, GN, or Ghotbi have the right to do without fearing retribution in the future from a bitter, bitch ass referee.

While I too feel like it was no big deal, it earned him a $5000 fine from AFC and a stern warning...clearly the powers in AFV were not happy with CQ...

CQ has not adapted to the realities of Asian football...and while we love his style and bluntless, I doubt he will ever bring Iran success atnthe continental level because of ill-timed judgements like his AC criticism.

Sent from my ME173X using Tapatalk

[Bi-honar]

Who is saying he is beyond doubt? Who said that? You have gotten a large number of valid responses as to why JB and AZ should stay with senior team.

Ando jaan, when some people (and I'm definitely not referring to you or saying everyone here) are not only supportive of EVERY single decision CQ makes, but go far enough to say that if you don't agree with that decision, you lack basic football knowledge, are an armchair coach or Playstation expert (and these are usually coming from people who have never touched a ball in their lives), what they are really saying is that he is beyond doubt, even if they're not using those exact words.

Arguments don't always have to be explicit, they can be implicit. Yes, some valid points have been brought up on both sides of the argument but at the end, everyone has to appreciate that there is no right or wrong here - just matters of opinion which happen to be at the opposite ends of the spectrum in this case. Anyone who fails to realize that is saying CQ is beyond doubt IMHO.