Originally posted by Camran khan
View Post
-
Azizam he played for A team in pre season and sat on the bench in the beginning hence Allsvenskan. -
Ah ok.Originally posted by Zamboor View Post
But I still maintain my point about capping them. If they're good enough, start with the youth teams, if they want to represent Iran, they should be happy with starting at their own level, yani the youth teams, if they want to represent Sweden, they most likely won't accept an invite from either our main team or our youth team.
Comment
-
The point is that in relation to homegrown stars like Karimi and Mahdavikia, the average fan was not clamouring to bring Dejagah into the fold. Dejagah probably would have been of aid to our team. Today, our homegrown talent does not play for Bayern Munich or Hamburg, but rather Rostov and NEC. We are ignoring players who play in Swedish top flight and a guy like Rafati who played in Serie A with Genoa in a similar way and reason as we ignored Dejagah in 2009. In comparison to our TM players at the time, we thought Dejagah wasn't a big deal, and compared to our current stars on Rostov today, we do not consider players from Sweden or Norway to be a big deal. Today we would kill for a player from Wolfsburg. My point isn't a direct comparison between Ashkan and say a guy like Tabrizi, but my comparison is to these types of players in regards to how we consider them as TM fans. The situations are comparable, even if the player qualities are different. Azmoun =\= Karimi, Jahanbakhsh =\= Mahdavikia, and Daniel Tabrizi =\= Dejagah. The point isn't to compare player to player, it's to compare situation to situation.Originally posted by Camran khan View Post
Our team relies on players from lower quality leagues today. Playing a player like Ezatolahi is a sign that we are not the team from 2006 or even 2009. CQ has placed an emphasis on youth, and young players of Iranian descent should all be given a chance to prove themselves for TM. I do not condone 100% capping them all as some have suggested. I would support the capping of any player that shows up at the camp and shows try potential.
We all know how difficult it is to show your talent when you are on a crappy team. Haghighi is better than his performances at Panafiel would show. We never know if any of these guys are gems stuck on bad teams unless CQ brings them to a camp , tries them out and concludes that they are good or bad. That's all I'm saying. I truly don't understand why anyone would be against this. It builds a connection between the team and the player, and in case they bloom late, they might consider Iran over their other countries.
If Atashkadeh became the next Ronaldo, it's possible he would choose Iran over Sweden since CQ invited him to that one camp. He may have built a small connection to the team and country.
Comment
-
This is key. Even so, nothing wrong with tracking these players and even sending them camp/friendly invites if they have potential or can help TM. Each player invited to TM should want to play for Iran but also have earned the spot and have the talent to do so. Who knows where these guys will be next year or after so for now why not follow them?Originally posted by Camran khan View Post
Sent from my ME173X using Tapatalk
Remember RESPECT BEGETS RESPECT & Zob Ahan Comment
-
Not picking at anyone specifically, but the reason many Iranians don't want to follow these guys is because they don't consider them Iranian in the same way they do our homegrown players. Tabrizi is not as Iranian as Ezatolahi, as he has no direct connection to Iranian football at the moment, and did not leave Iran recently. He is a foreigner, and until he comes into TM and proves himself, like Dejagah or Gucci, people will not care about him.Originally posted by O-ZoNe View Post
Many still don't consider Omid Nazari truly an Iranian NT player, despite him having more than a few caps with the team. Iranians are a very "what have you done for me today" kind of people.
Heck, did you see how quickly they turn on players like Dejagah and Gucci. I don't think they made the best career choices, but they're still good and have done a lot for our team. Unlike some players who are consistently on the bad side for TM, Dejagah has a few off games once in a while, and Gucci is still a hustler, but the day he stopped scoring a goal every game he played for us, people were already saying how him and Dejagah were trash from leaving Europe, etc.
People will fight to the death to protect Hajsafi, Heydari, Haddadifar (until recently), and many others that were extremely unreliable for TM. These guys aren't bad players mind you, but they've had more bad days than Dejagah and Gucci. People like to still bash those players from Europe as they are honestly held to a higher standard, and find excuses for the homegrown talent.
Nobody ever responds to this comparison, but how come so many people were saying Davari was trash, etc. Didn't deserve a spot in TM, even during his Bundesliga year in Braunschweig, but when Haghighi has an almost equally poor season in a worse Portuguese league, everybody blames his poor defensive line, his poor team generally, etc. Not much blame, if ever, is placed on Iranian homegrown players.
The best example of this, when we got scored on by Guinea (2014) and Lebanon (November 2013). To this day, people blame 2 players, Beitashour and Davari. Whenever I say, "hey, maybe we shouldn't blame the last 2 guys trying to stop a break-away, and maybe examine why our midfielders Haddadifar and Jabbari allowed the break, people say, "NO! It was their responsibility.
Please watch this video from 5:14, and someone, please again tell me it was Beitashour's fault that the goal was scored! So many people were blaming him at the time, and it's obvious to me that, at the time, people wanted him to fail.
Also, please watch the following 2 goals starting at 0:58.
Yes, I will admit that Davari didn't have the best reactions. Really though, is there NO blame to be put on the midfielders/defenders in the first case, and Nekounam and Haddadifar in the second case, for giving that much room to these strong Africans to run freely and take wide-open shots on net? Even if Davari had dived wildly, the odds are he would not have gotten either. He was screened by 2 defenders who weren't doing any defending on the first shot, and the second was a lazer to the top corner not even Manuel Neuer could stop that easily. Why so much expectations to be perfect on those two, and no sharing of the blame where blame is due, but now everyone is so rational in the tie against Turkmenistan?
In our most recent game, where Hajsafi caused the break away in a similar way to Haddadifar/Nekounam/Jabbari, everyone sees that the original cause of the breakaway was the fault of the midfielders, and not the last lines of defense, Kanaani and Haghighi. Honestly, does anyone not find that double standard ridiculous? Breakaway goals, caused by mistakes made in the midfield area, in one case, the entire blame is placed on the last players trying to salvage situations cause by poor defending, and in one case, Iranian fans are fair and balanced, not blaming the last line who could do nothing, but in the other case, expect a guy from MLS and a guy from 2 Bundesliga to do Sergio Ramos defending with 2 feet away from the goal, and Manuel Neuer style diving saves when your defense is just dicking around letting people take free shots at you.
How do you think Haghighi would be responding if those 2 Guinea shots were allowed against him? He'd be tearing the defense a new one.
I feel that all of these situations and unequal treatments have shown me that a large number of people on this board have an inherent bias and a "what have you done for me recently" attitude towards foreign grown players that they don't have with players raised in Iran.
They make fun of these players before they are called, as we do not "need them" but then when they are called, they are held to a ridiculous standard and expected to be Messi or Ronaldo.
Freaking Omid Nazari was actually shown to be a smarter and stronger player than many of our youth players when he played with the young team. Yet, I guarantee that people are still buzzing about every Iranian player and thinking they still have potential, but have brushed Nazari aside as HE wasn't "good enough."
It's honestly ridiculous that these standards exist, and they poison our football. I'm sure CQ has these same expectations, as he expects every player to be a savior of our team, and I think it's just ridiculous. Give these guys the same type and amount of chances that you give all the Iranian players, man. It's a horrible bias to have, as we may be missing out on good, solid players based on the fact they could not immediately adapt to the team in their first games like Gucci and Dejagah.
If anyone can honestly tell me that Heydari currently deserves to be started in any position over Beitashour, I don't even know what I would do. Heydari was a great RB and RM, but he's old, and lost his touch. Beitashour against Turkmenisan, I can guarantee, would have been more productive and given more precise passes than Heydari, and lost the ball less. Heydari is given so many shots because he is held to a lower standard. When he messes up, "well the guy plays in IPL!" When Beitashour messes up "I thought this guys was supposed to be some hot shit? WTF?"
Anybody care to tell me that this attitude does not exist and why? Any concrete instances of Iranian fans holding foreign based players to even a similar standard than to IPL players?
Everyone says that there is some boner that CQ and most fans have for foreign based players, but I honestly haven't seen it as only 2 have really been given repeated shots at team melli while CQ has completely forgotten about the rest.Comment
-
lol the first video.. it still gets me how they think that was beitas fault. mind blowing.Originally posted by Afat11 View PostNot picking at anyone specifically, but the reason many Iranians don't want to follow these guys is because they don't consider them Iranian in the same way they do our homegrown players. Tabrizi is not as Iranian as Ezatolahi, as he has no direct connection to Iranian football at the moment, and did not leave Iran recently. He is a foreigner, and until he comes into TM and proves himself, like Dejagah or Gucci, people will not care about him.
Many still don't consider Omid Nazari truly an Iranian NT player, despite him having more than a few caps with the team. Iranians are a very "what have you done for me today" kind of people.
Heck, did you see how quickly they turn on players like Dejagah and Gucci. I don't think they made the best career choices, but they're still good and have done a lot for our team. Unlike some players who are consistently on the bad side for TM, Dejagah has a few off games once in a while, and Gucci is still a hustler, but the day he stopped scoring a goal every game he played for us, people were already saying how him and Dejagah were trash from leaving Europe, etc.
People will fight to the death to protect Hajsafi, Heydari, Haddadifar (until recently), and many others that were extremely unreliable for TM. These guys aren't bad players mind you, but they've had more bad days than Dejagah and Gucci. People like to still bash those players from Europe as they are honestly held to a higher standard, and find excuses for the homegrown talent.
Nobody ever responds to this comparison, but how come so many people were saying Davari was trash, etc. Didn't deserve a spot in TM, even during his Bundesliga year in Braunschweig, but when Haghighi has an almost equally poor season in a worse Portuguese league, everybody blames his poor defensive line, his poor team generally, etc. Not much blame, if ever, is placed on Iranian homegrown players.
The best example of this, when we got scored on by Guinea (2014) and Lebanon (November 2013). To this day, people blame 2 players, Beitashour and Davari. Whenever I say, "hey, maybe we shouldn't blame the last 2 guys trying to stop a break-away, and maybe examine why our midfielders Haddadifar and Jabbari allowed the break, people say, "NO! It was their responsibility.
Please watch this video from 5:14, and someone, please again tell me it was Beitashour's fault that the goal was scored! So many people were blaming him at the time, and it's obvious to me that, at the time, people wanted him to fail.
Also, please watch the following 2 goals starting at 0:58.
Yes, I will admit that Davari didn't have the best reactions. Really though, is there NO blame to be put on the midfielders/defenders in the first case, and Nekounam and Haddadifar in the second case, for giving that much room to these strong Africans to run freely and take wide-open shots on net? Even if Davari had dived wildly, the odds are he would not have gotten either. He was screened by 2 defenders who weren't doing any defending on the first shot, and the second was a lazer to the top corner not even Manuel Neuer could stop that easily. Why so much expectations to be perfect on those two, and no sharing of the blame where blame is due, but now everyone is so rational in the tie against Turkmenistan?
In our most recent game, where Hajsafi caused the break away in a similar way to Haddadifar/Nekounam/Jabbari, everyone sees that the original cause of the breakaway was the fault of the midfielders, and not the last lines of defense, Kanaani and Haghighi. Honestly, does anyone not find that double standard ridiculous? Breakaway goals, caused by mistakes made in the midfield area, in one case, the entire blame is placed on the last players trying to salvage situations cause by poor defending, and in one case, Iranian fans are fair and balanced, not blaming the last line who could do nothing, but in the other case, expect a guy from MLS and a guy from 2 Bundesliga to do Sergio Ramos defending with 2 feet away from the goal, and Manuel Neuer style diving saves when your defense is just dicking around letting people take free shots at you.
How do you think Haghighi would be responding if those 2 Guinea shots were allowed against him? He'd be tearing the defense a new one.
I feel that all of these situations and unequal treatments have shown me that a large number of people on this board have an inherent bias and a "what have you done for me recently" attitude towards foreign grown players that they don't have with players raised in Iran.
They make fun of these players before they are called, as we do not "need them" but then when they are called, they are held to a ridiculous standard and expected to be Messi or Ronaldo.
Freaking Omid Nazari was actually shown to be a smarter and stronger player than many of our youth players when he played with the young team. Yet, I guarantee that people are still buzzing about every Iranian player and thinking they still have potential, but have brushed Nazari aside as HE wasn't "good enough."
It's honestly ridiculous that these standards exist, and they poison our football. I'm sure CQ has these same expectations, as he expects every player to be a savior of our team, and I think it's just ridiculous. Give these guys the same type and amount of chances that you give all the Iranian players, man. It's a horrible bias to have, as we may be missing out on good, solid players based on the fact they could not immediately adapt to the team in their first games like Gucci and Dejagah.
If anyone can honestly tell me that Heydari currently deserves to be started in any position over Beitashour, I don't even know what I would do. Heydari was a great RB and RM, but he's old, and lost his touch. Beitashour against Turkmenisan, I can guarantee, would have been more productive and given more precise passes than Heydari, and lost the ball less. Heydari is given so many shots because he is held to a lower standard. When he messes up, "well the guy plays in IPL!" When Beitashour messes up "I thought this guys was supposed to be some hot shit? WTF?"
Anybody care to tell me that this attitude does not exist and why? Any concrete instances of Iranian fans holding foreign based players to even a similar standard than to IPL players?
Everyone says that there is some boner that CQ and most fans have for foreign based players, but I honestly haven't seen it as only 2 have really been given repeated shots at team melli while CQ has completely forgotten about the rest.Comment
-
Holy shit man all your posts are like a university thesis.
I really don't get why some people are so passionate about these types of players. If they're good I'm sure Queiroz will have no problem calling them up.Comment
-
It's a football forum, and I think some intellectual debate isn't too much to ask from some members. I'm trying to make a point, and I've noticed that just saying an opinion like "there is a bias against foreign-based Iranian players" will get eaten alive. I need to make it clear with evidence apparently for people to actually think about these topics, and not just blow by it, and not digest it because it doesn't agree with what they believe.Originally posted by ali alipour View Post
I don't think I've reached you though, as it's clear you didn't fully understand the point of my post. There is an inherent bias that is pervasive throughout our football. The "Khosrow is okay to play despite his faults, because he is a product of the Iranian system" but "Beita and Davari are trained in other leagues, well they better be Lionel Messi."
I think that CQ's reliance on foreign based players has actually hurt the team overall, since despite it giving us the gems of Dejagah and Gucci, it created this bias that every foreign based player should make as an immediate impact as they did. Beitashour particularly did not deserve to be excluded from the team for this long. The dude has been doing as well as any IPL RB at the moment, maybe not better than Ghafouri, but close, and he has been better than Heydari, but CQ and most Iranians still have the thought in their mind that the guy didn't single-handedly transform our team in 5 caps, so he is useless for us. I thought it was Beita not wanting to play for TM, as many members of this forum spouted that rumor for no reason, but the guy was apparently really hurt to not be called up for the Asian Cup, and honestly, he played midfield before being a RB, and should have been played instead of Heydari in every game in the last year Heydari has played.
I cannot remember the last time Heydari did something productive for TM. I don't hate Heydari, but I believe that he should work as a substitute as his days as a starter are behind him. Does that make sense? CQ won't invite Beitashour because he didn't live up to the hype that CQ and many Iranian fans had in their head about how a foreign player should play. Has very little to do with Beitashour's quality, as it's clear he is better than many of TM's recent call-ups, even if he doesn't deserve the automatic starting position.Comment
-
Your comparisons are very weak. I don't even remember the last time heidary played as a right back for tm so not sure the point of comparing him to beitashour. Also I'm not sure where you got that beitashour is better than many of tm's recent call ups. I've watched most of vancouver's games the last 2 years and other than some good performances here and there beitashour is an average mls player with a huge physical weakness. Also, considering you most likely don't even watch the ipl, that conclusion is even more confusing. Beitashour is around 3rd or 4th on tm's rb depth chart. Ghafouri, rezaeian, and montarezi are all above him.Comment
-
Originally posted by ali alipour View Post
Beitashour played midfielder in the past and has said he can play LB as well. He is a utility player just like Heydari, as I've clearly stated. You make assumptions about my IPL watching, but I watch many IPL games throughout the last 2 seasons. I have a satellite.
So don't make assumptions. Beitashour is better than Heydari, that is for sure. I'm not sure why Ezatollahi Pourghaz was called up for the first time at 28 years old and not given a minute in either friendly or Turkmenistan game. Beitashour is more useful to TM at this point than an injury probe 31 year old Beikzadeh. CQ should invite Beitashour again and try him at LB, because there's no way he could be worse than Beikzadeh.
Omid Ebrahimi has shown very little in TM after many opportunities, yet people still are gobbling his balls. If someone can remember one important play by the guy in his several years with TM, I will jump off my roof. At least Beita gave Gucci a nice assist in his 2nd or 3rd game.
Check the most recent camp players. There were about ten 25 year old + defenders and midfielders that were randomly invited. Really? These guys like Meysam Majidi deserve call-ups over Beita? Really? What is their distinguishing factor? CQ had forgotten about Beitashour for some reason and I'm attributing that to what my point. These players have a higher expectation than these IPL players.
If you want to call my ideas dumb and say it's "so clear" that Majidi is light tears ahead of Beitashour, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. 1 more player could have been invited. He is unjustly forgotten while lesser players are still invited. Please, you seem to think I'm just talking from my rear-end, so please tell me why my idea is wrong and worse players are not being invited. I really want to hear how I don't see how these random IPL players so much deserve the camp invite but Beitashour does not. If you don't see that there is something going on, I can't talk to you anymore. You're wasting your breath and mine. I'm surprised that Kiarash would like your post. He seems like a reasonable guy. It seems hypocritical to want Hasegawa to be given fair opportunity with TM, but he doesn't think that Beitashour should get the same treatment?
The guy is better than Hajmohammadi, Majidi, and more than a few other guys invited to the last camp. Why would Beita and Davari be completely excommunicated from the team, while other perpetual underachievers and random IPL guys get camp invites like it's candy.
I'll tell you why. Bigger expectations on these players that is harming our team. We won't let players like Beita help us, because it's Ronaldo or bust with them. Beita might not be the best defender in MLS, but he also isn't bad or been in a downturn. Random IPL defenders and midfielders though, yeah, they totally deserve to be called up and never played.
I hope you will actually read this, as you've clearly not read my last few posts. If you had, you would have seen that I explained my comparison to Heydari, as Beita has played in the midfield in the past, and could have easily played the same position as Heydari against Turkmenistan. Heydari freaking seems out of position as a midfielder anyway. You really don't think Beita could have played the same position? that's ridiculous.
I'm truly ashamed at Kiarash disagreeing on this, because he has recently flip-flopped a huge deal in his views. He used to be the one pushing for fair chances in TM, but I think the hate on him for it by certain members has caused him to give in to the peer pressure. The guy who used to post all of the names of every player abroad, no matter the league, is now saying Steven Beitashour is lower than random IPL players that all of us know aren't good enough to make the final cut based on their IPL performances?
Truly a sad day when Kiarash turns the dark side of the people that want TM to stay closed to only IPL players, and we miss the next Behrang Safari to Sweden, again. A player we could have used at LB.
Seriously, it's pathetic how much people hold up IPL and make excuses for it, but on the other end, like Ali alipour, will fight to their dying breath to keep quality players out of CAMPS. Yes, CAMPS. It's ridiculous. CQ is excluding this guy from the camp, despite recent steady form, while inviting trash players who never made a difference in IPL, and that's suddenly fine. You all bitch and moan about Sharifi, he's invited, and sucks a big one, but you still cry for his inclusion every time. Beita played fairly well for TM and at least was present enough to make important touches and have an assist as a defender, something even Sharifi as a playmaker has a hard time doing, and again, you will all brush Beita off like he is yesterday's trash and Sharifi is fool's gold.
Give 100 opportunities to inconsistent IPL players who never do anything for TM in more than a few chances, but don't give a rats behind that Beita isn't given another chance in CAMPS. I cannot believe how backwards that logic is.
Keep saying it's CQ's decision though. When CQ loses games or makes strange call ups, your all on his ass for his decisions, but this time, since Beita is the one being harmed, "nah, it's cool. The coach makes the decisions."
Seriously, backwards ass logic, and many of you need to check your biases at the door. If you don't see yourself acting like this and you are, I would hate to know any of you in real life.Comment
-
The reason why Heydari plays over Esteven is synergy and I understand it. I'd rather have a bad Heydari with synergy than an average Esteven without any kind of synergy to any TM player.sigpicComment
-
Does he also have more Pizaaz and extra spunk? Heydari isn't very good, and he doesn't have any more synergy than Beitashour.Originally posted by AsOen5 View PostComment
-
http://www.ok-magazin.de/people/news...id-313139.html
,,Jean Ghafourian spielt im Mittelfeld U19-Mannschaft bei Bayer 04 Leverkusen und gilt als großes Talent im Fußballsport." I dont know how serious this page is but they call him a great talent! Hes currently playing for the U 19 of LeverkusenComment
-
I distinctly remember how poorly Heydari played vs. Turkmenistan in the first game. The guy sucks now. If we played Heydari instead of Montazeri vs Argentina we would have been murdered.Comment
-
I don't think Beitashour stopped being invited because he was diaspora but rather because of some questions of attitude. Dejagah and Gucci kept being invited when they played in weaker leagues because not only are they talented but they have a professional attitude. Remember as well how popular Zandi was and still is despite not really having the career people hoped he would have.
I've seen Beita play in the MLS he actually has very good technique for a defender and I can't see him not being invited because of nationality or talent but rather some disagreement with the manager. Remember as well that the manager is trying to bring younger players in and the prospects of players like the Mohammadis and Torabi (I believe he played fullback on his TM debut) seem more exciting at the moment. Just food for thought.Comment
Comment