Any analysis of CQ's performance must take into account our TALENT DROUGHT

[rugs]

Everyone here is talking about "talent". Yes, we have talented players but so what? The structure and philosophy of our football is weak, hence even the most talented players don't grow and develop into top notch footballers. Our players lack discipline and don't fully understand the meaning of being a "professional footballer". Do you folks remember Karimi in BM? Yes, loads of talent, he lasted...what, was it 2 or 3 seasons with sporadic play time? In my opinion, our most successful players, those who are on par with the top layer of players in European leagues, were Daie, Hashemian, Nekoonam, and of course Mahdavikia - all the rest may have gotten their foot in the door but didn't have the mettle to remain as a long term fixture. Anyone remember the 2002 US WC team? Talk about mediocre talent. Yet, they managed to get themselves to the quarterfinals and barely lose to Germany 1-0. TALENT IS NOT ENOUGH!!!
I've always said, the most talented players I've played with were during my high school years in Iran but alas, talent only gets you so far, it discipline, work ethic and a clear strategy that'll allow you to succeed.

Finally someone hit the nail on the head.

We have potential talent, but no real talent as of yet.

You can't take a diamond out of the ground and put it on a ring. That diamond needs to be worked on and polished first.

These two are different:




Our biggest problem is management and football culture.

So long as we make celebrities out of lazy no talent players, the following generations will have no incentive to do anything different.

So long as bribes and kick backs are a part of our football, we will not see deserving players get their fair chance.

The only solution to our football is to privatize it all. We have fake managers playing with fake players and fake administrators playing with fake money. All of this in a fake league that cares more about covering up tattoos than combating corruption.



Finally, you cannot compare players like Daei, Nekounam, Hashemian, Mahdavikia and Karimi to players like Azmoun, JB, etc.... That is just ridiculous.

How many of these "talents" have people propped up over the years? Let me give you a list:

Nikbakht
Kazemian
Madanchi
Borhani
Majidi
Meydavoudi
Mobali
Sadeghian
Ansarifard
Entezari
Rafat
Oladi
Khalili
Norouzi (rip)


All these guys were supposed PGL "talent".....

In a few years we can add Alishah, Sharifi, Nariman Jahan and Taremi to the list unless some things really change.

[rugs]

Answer this, are they using public funds to pay CQs salary?

Be respectful and answer my questions first:

Who are the "Iranian tax payers" you are talking about?

I'm curious, when have you yourself ever paid taxes in Iran and what was it for?

[mahestan]

Be respectful and answer my questions first:

Who are the "Iranian tax payers" you are talking about?

I'm curious, when have you yourself ever paid taxes in Iran and what was it for?

Malyat bar daramad haji. I'm not going to share private information with you. And stop being sensitive, what's up with everyone on PFDC saying "be respectful" sheesh. No one is cursing at you or saying anything bad about your family.

You answer my question now, are they not using public funds to pay CQ's salary?

[rugs]

Malyat bar daramad haji. I'm not going to share private information with you. And stop being sensitive, what's up with everyone on PFDC saying "be respectful" sheesh. No one is cursing at you or saying anything bad about your family.

You answer my question now, are they not using public funds to pay CQ's salary?

I was telling you to be respectful to the discussion and answer my question. Talk however you like.

As for your answer, unless you work for the gov't, you are not paying an income tax. That's why I questioned how much you know about Iran, because you seem to not know how the tax system works.

As far as I know, they are not paying CQ and he is still owed money. Once they pay him I guess we will find out where it's coming from. But it is not from income tax, I can assure you that.

[ramingeles2000]

Hoo boy, so much written and so much to refute.

Without getting into lengthy posts, I totally refute we have talent drought. The evidence is there in our youth and Omid teams as well as the youngsters in TM. Especially if we compare it to ASIAN standards. Unless in our zeal to defend CQ we suddenly put Brazil or Argentina as the standard. lol

I also disagree that it is easy for IRANIAN lads to go to Europe. We either talk about transfers in general or we talk about specific example of iran. One must be foolish or completely uninformed to think our case is similar to china's or Japan's.
On top of the general difficulties an Asian player faces in getting the transfer to Europe, places like Iran provide a whole new layer of difficulties and obstructions. Yes, political matters do have an impact. So do openness of the markets, copy rights issues, merchandizing prospects or lack of, wealth of the population, market maturity, language and cultural receptiveness, ... etc. Etc.

In other words, To say our lads stand EQUAL chance as if CQ's constant belittling and degrading of our people was not enough!!) just to support one individual. Whose aide are we on and who is the priority here?


I have tried to stay neutral and not jump at every opportunity to criticize CQ when there was reason to do so. But such sycophantic behavior and blind support is what makes one bring up every little screw up to show he's not such an untouchable God and he has many faults, mistakes, personality flaws, ...
Such inferiority complex towards a ''famous name'' is actually harmful.

I NEVER said that it's easy for Iranians to go to Europe. Don't twist what I said, it's shameful. You're setting up BS straw man arguments instead of responding to what I said. What I said is that it's as easy for Iranian players to transfer as it's ever been, and that it's surely no more difficult than it was 10 years ago when we have 8 players in top European leagues. I also NEVER compared Iranian players ability to go to europe with Chinese or Japanese. Where are you getting this?!

And you're saying that our performance at WC was the reason why more players didn't go to Europe??! are you serious? so you think it was our "epic performance" at WC2006 that allowed Nekounam, Shojaei and Ando to go to Europe right afterwards? Are you saying we had a better performance in WC2006? And you accuse other people of lacking reading comprehension??

[mahestan]

I was telling you to be respectful to the discussion and answer my question. Talk however you like.

As for your answer, unless you work for the gov't, you are not paying an income tax. That's why I questioned how much you know about Iran, because you seem to not know how the tax system works.

As far as I know, they are not paying CQ and he is still owed money. Once they pay him I guess we will find out where it's coming from. But it is not from income tax, I can assure you that.

I agree that his salary is not coming from income tax. It is probably coming from other public funds, most likely from oil and gas sale revenue. I was attempting to make it clear why it is understandable and reasonable for people in Iran to ask how much CQ is getting paid. OP, ramingeles2000, said "mageh pooleh to hast" in his comment, and I wanted to prove a point that it technically is from public funds. I never asked how much CQ gets paid, and frankly, I don't really care how much he gets paid. I used the tax example to make my point.

[ramingeles2000]

We have no shortage of talent. And if you think playing in TM is more important than getting a lot more money in IPL, then you don't know much about economics of profesional sports.

The reason you see fewer Iranians in EU has to do with 1) the money they earn in Iran or UAE/Qatar 2) difficulty with sanctions which weren't in place when AK8 and Co. were in EU.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

This is a good point, thank you for actually responding to my arguments. It's true that compared to 10-15 years ago, IPL players are paid more, which prevents them from going to Europe. But still I have some counterarguments. First, look at Ansarifard and Hajisafi. Ansarifard was the IPL's best player and is absolutely average or below average in a mediocre European club. Similarly, Hajisafi, probably the best player in IPL last 3 years, could only transfer to a middling 2nd Bundesliga team.

Second, even if it's true that there are "talented" IPL players who stay in IPL instead of going to Europe solely for money, these players are surely getting called up to TM (think Jabbari, Nouri, etc other players who were maybe talented enough to go to Europe but never did) and they're still nowhere close to the quality of players like Zandi, Kia, Hashemian etc who had the talent and were selected to go to Europe.

And finally, these players all know that if they play even 2-3 seasons in Europe, their chances of making huge $ in an arab league increase.

So I don't know how much the IPL salaries have an effect on the decision to go to big European teams.

[ramingeles2000]

It's not just 3, those 3 are the ones that have potential to be the best ever in their respective positions. They all made moves to Europe in their teenage years and 2 out of the 3 got consistent match praxis (JB and Azmoun) from the beginning of their arrival. Name me one time in the history of our football that has ever happened. Keep in mind the world class goals JB scored against Ajax to single handedly keep their hopes of survival alive not to mention the many other goals and assists he had in his first season. I'd be more than happy to compile a list of the upcoming golden era in our football consisting of 10-15 extremely talented players since you seem to be unaware of it. You really think CQ would have opted to stay until 2018 if he didn't see this? Why would he stick here with all the shit he is to deal with day in day out only to possibly fail?

Exactly, it was unequal then and it was unequal now....as you mentioned we had 3-4 guys during that era go to Europe and we have had 3-4 guys in this era make the move to Europe, thanks for proving my point. Nothing has changed....if you don't want to acknowledge guys like Amiri who have performed for TM and their club brilliantly by calling them decent to good performances then that shows where the problem is for you. Everyone else sees it, if you chose not to then I'm not sure what to say. A

There's so much I disagree with in this post, aziz.

First, there's no evidence that CQ stayed because he saw "special potential" in our youngsters. This is what you say, but nowhere has CQ said "I'm excited about our youngsters potential" or "I think the future is very bright with our young players in Europe" or anything to that effect. In fact, to the contrary, a chief complaint of CQ critics is that he always puts down our football and doesn't give credit to our talents. You're saying that CQ only stayed because our talent is so great that he knows "there's no way we could fail". What are you talking about? If CQ had taken the reigns because he thought he couldn't fail, why would he have taken the job in 2011, when we were TERRIBLE and our talent was even WORSE?

I agree that it's exciting that 3 of our young players have gone to Europe. But let's not overhype things here. Jahanbakhsh has had consistent playing time and has had a solid club career thus far, but let's not exaggerate. 1 good season in a relegation-bound team, and another good season in the 2nd division doesn't make him mahdavikia, who was an immediate starter and STAR in a competitive Bundesliga team. Azmoun also has great potential, but hasn't accomplished much yet in a weak Russian league and still hasn't proven he's a starter in Europe. Ezatollahi is 100% unproven, but again very exciting. You're talking about potential (and I hope youre right) but I'm pointing out realities.

And wow, you can't possibly believe that Azmoun, Ezatollahi, Jahanbakhsh playing as substitutes in Russia and the Netherlands is equally indicative of our talent in 2005-2007 for example, where we had 6-7 starters in the Bundesliga, Serie A and La Liga? Not all European leagues are created equally, especially when players are substitutes.

[ramingeles2000]

Malyat bar daramad haji. I'm not going to share private information with you. And stop being sensitive, what's up with everyone on PFDC saying "be respectful" sheesh. No one is cursing at you or saying anything bad about your family.

You answer my question now, are they not using public funds to pay CQ's salary?

People say "be respectful" because new members like you post things like "get your heads out of CQs ass" and continue to dilute the quality of discussion on this board.

[mahestan]

People say "be respectful" because new members like you post things like "get your heads out of CQs ass" and continue to dilute the quality of discussion on this board.

Last time I checked, you told me to "GTFO", which is "Get The Fuck Out". You fired the first shot so I reciprocated.

[ramingeles2000]

Finally someone hit the nail on the head.

We have potential talent, but no real talent as of yet.

You can't take a diamond out of the ground and put it on a ring. That diamond needs to be worked on and polished first.

These two are different:




Our biggest problem is management and football culture.

So long as we make celebrities out of lazy no talent players, the following generations will have no incentive to do anything different.

So long as bribes and kick backs are a part of our football, we will not see deserving players get their fair chance.

The only solution to our football is to privatize it all. We have fake managers playing with fake players and fake administrators playing with fake money. All of this in a fake league that cares more about covering up tattoos than combating corruption.



Finally, you cannot compare players like Daei, Nekounam, Hashemian, Mahdavikia and Karimi to players like Azmoun, JB, etc.... That is just ridiculous.

How many of these "talents" have people propped up over the years? Let me give you a list:

Nikbakht
Kazemian
Madanchi
Borhani
Majidi
Meydavoudi
Mobali
Sadeghian
Ansarifard
Entezari
Rafat
Oladi
Khalili
Norouzi (rip)


All these guys were supposed PGL "talent".....

In a few years we can add Alishah, Sharifi, Nariman Jahan and Taremi to the list unless some things really change.

Great point and perspective.

Not all, but most the players in the list you mentioned weren't good enough to make it in Europe. If they were, they would have gone. They weren't European-level talent, they were simply the victim of the Iranian hype machine. If they were so great, they would have had fantastic IPL careers at the very least, and of that list, only a handful had even that.

Some of PFDC's members don't want to hear the truth. They want to believe that good IPL players are super amazing football prodigies who haven't made any international name for themselves because of sanctions, khomeini, sepah pasdaran, lack of football infrastructure, too much kabob, etc but they still can't address the fact that prior generations of players had ALL THESE SAME HANDICAPS and were still able to play in Europe's top clubs because they were GREAT players.

I know my viewpoint isn't particularly uplifting or positive, but it's the truth.

[jumba47]

Last time I checked, you told me to "GTFO", which is "Get The Fuck Out". You fired the first shot so I reciprocated.

prozac mikhai?

[mahestan]

prozac mikhai?

I'll take an adderall if you got one

[Ghermez Agha]

There's so much I disagree with in this post, aziz.

First, there's no evidence that CQ stayed because he saw "special potential" in our youngsters. This is what you say, but nowhere has CQ said "I'm excited about our youngsters potential" or "I think the future is very bright with our young players in Europe" or anything to that effect. In fact, to the contrary, a chief complaint of CQ critics is that he always puts down our football and doesn't give credit to our talents. You're saying that CQ only stayed because our talent is so great that he knows "there's no way we could fail". What are you talking about? If CQ had taken the reigns because he thought he couldn't fail, why would he have taken the job in 2011, when we were TERRIBLE and our talent was even WORSE?

I agree that it's exciting that 3 of our young players have gone to Europe. But let's not overhype things here. Jahanbakhsh has had consistent playing time and has had a solid club career thus far, but let's not exaggerate. 1 good season in a relegation-bound team, and another good season in the 2nd division doesn't make him mahdavikia, who was an immediate starter and STAR in a competitive Bundesliga team. Azmoun also has great potential, but hasn't accomplished much yet in a weak Russian league and still hasn't proven he's a starter in Europe. Ezatollahi is 100% unproven, but again very exciting. You're talking about potential (and I hope youre right) but I'm pointing out realities.

And wow, you can't possibly believe that Azmoun, Ezatollahi, Jahanbakhsh playing as substitutes in Russia and the Netherlands is equally indicative of our talent in 2005-2007 for example, where we had 6-7 starters in the Bundesliga, Serie A and La Liga? Not all European leagues are created equally, especially when players are substitutes.

of course there is no evidence that CQ stayed because he saw potential, but what would be the biggest motive for him to stay in Iran rather than going to a bigger national team or going to a premier league or la liga team? An educated assumption would be that he see's something in our football that kept him here. Despite the lack of support he has received he STILL satyed.....I think Iran has grown on him over the years but that alone surely cant be enough for a reknowned foreign coach to stay. Im curious to know then.....what do you think the reason is that he stayed?

Very clear and simple answer to your question, CQ came in 2011 because of two things:
a) monetary incentive....the moeny he got in Iran he surely wouldn't have gotten in many other places. he explicitly said he wanted to coach a national team with a good chance of making the world cup which leads me to my next point.
b) at the time we had promising youngsters like hajsafi, afshin, ansarifard, and sadeghian along with some veteran players in nekounam, teymourian, hosseini, khalatbari, and rahamti which all had a promising make up for the 2014 WCQs so I don't agree at all that we were terrible by any means. Let alone the fact that we had our easiest drawing in our WCQ history.

^ all of that was his incentive to come in 2011.....thats a much different incentive than when he re-signed after the WC so plz dont make the 2 separate circumstances into 1.

JB is not a substitue, that is totally false. The only time he was ever a sub was his first month in the team when he was getting acclamated to dutch football but from that moment on, he was a consistent starter unless he was fighting off an injury like he is currently. JB has been a class above his oposition, there is no doubt in my mind that he will soon be where mahdavikia was when he tears it up for AZ this season when he gets fully fit again. Azmoun was 18 when he was coming off the bench for RUbin, a year later when he was 19 they starting rotating him in and out of the starting line up. Take into account this is one of the better/bigger clubs in the russian league too so quit belittling what these youngsters have done so far. Ezzi is unproven at the club level you're right, but he has held his own and done more in his 2-3 TM caps than any DM in Iran could, and the kid is a teen for crying out loud. I

TO answer your last question....I'm not saying that they are equivelant to mahdavikia, hashemian, karimi, rezaie, etc. but im saying that they have potential to be there one day. All those guys i just used as an example from the 2005-7 era you're talking about didn't turn that way over night or with a lack of experience. They did a lot to prove themselves and get noticed....these young guys we have are getting noticed earlier than they were and are backing it up. That to me shows a lot of promise.

[Gotham]

Great point and perspective.

Not all, but most the players in the list you mentioned weren't good enough to make it in Europe. If they were, they would have gone. They weren't European-level talent, they were simply the victim of the Iranian hype machine. If they were so great, they would have had fantastic IPL careers at the very least, and of that list, only a handful had even that.

Some of PFDC's members don't want to hear the truth. They want to believe that good IPL players are super amazing football prodigies who haven't made any international name for themselves because of sanctions, khomeini, sepah pasdaran, lack of football infrastructure, too much kabob, etc but they still can't address the fact that prior generations of players had ALL THESE SAME HANDICAPS and were still able to play in Europe's top clubs because they were GREAT players.

I know my viewpoint isn't particularly uplifting or positive, but it's the truth.

It's funny people think we have genuine talent at the moment. Aside from 2-3 good players who aren't even performing at the moment in Europe we have nothing compared to the Daei, Karimi, Mahdavikia and etc era.