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    Time for a new formation?

    I fail to see CQ's resistance to using two strikers at the same time. Judging from the recent games, whenever he has dropped the crappy 4-2-3-1 with single forward, for one with two strikers we've shown much more aggression, penetration, dangerous in the box and even scored goals (sadly scoring goals is such a tough task in CQ's teams).

    Lucky goal or not, the presence of a second striker does impact the outcome.
    Lets try the fluke of a goal against qatar. Where with pressing by both Ansarifard AND RGN, the qatari CD was forced to back pass to the keeper. And with BOTH our guys continuing to press and move towards the keeper from two different angles, the keeper had no time to gather his wits about him and was rushed to kick as soon as he got the ball, which led to his mistake. And the presence of the second striker was the reason for the goal as the qatari defender stretched and tackled Ansarifard, inadvertently he passed it to RGN to score.

    Now imagine if we had one striker up front with three BEHIND him.
    That initial press would have been less effective as there would be an extra qatari player available to receive the CD's pass instead of the keeper. And the rest, you can imagine. They'd keep the ball and continue to frustrate us for another 2 minutes as they'd done in the 94 prior minutes.
    And where would we be? Two points from two games.
    Yes, CQ and his fans would be ecstatic and elated that ''nobody can score on us'' and ''we are unbeaten'' and whatnot. But the reality would be we'd be heading to a fate much like Daei's team that had one too many draws and too few wins to gather points!


    What I propose is what I've been doing tor the past many many years. Almost ever since Branko the wimp forced this foolish 4-2-3-1 formation down our throats that has proven UNSUITABLE for our football, no matter who's the coach or who's in the line up.
    My proposal is the diamond 4-4-2 , in other words, 4-1-2-1-2, which gives you pretty much everything you need in a formation. It is a far simpler formation than 4-2-3-1 which makes delivering the tasks and duties by players far easier and probable. Especially for our not-so professional players and general football set up.


    You have your four defenders covering the width of the pitch and fullbacks that can participate in attacks, overlaps, ... etc.

    You have a Def-Mid who will form a barrier in front of the defense, cuts and intercepts build ups by opponent, also assists in winning the ball back to distribute up field

    You also have a creative playmaker. Something that is sorely missing un TM atm. Someone who creates plays, provides opportunities for forwards or sprays the ball to flanks to bring wing play. This is what we're missing as our attacks are usually lobs from defenders. And the few that get built up from midfield, are usually disjointed and appear haphazard.

    You get two flank mids, who not only participate and help in defense but also can become wingers, join in attack, use crosses or cut backs or ...

    And finally, you get TWO targets who split the defenders in the box. Thus relieving the pressure off the single forward mode, which means more opportunities for each one as well as more options and routes to score (especially if each player has different characteristics like RGN's natural instinct of finding half chances, extreme running and hustling paired up with Azmoun's aerial abilities and energy).


    The good thing is we do have all the players suited for such a formation. In some posts, more than enough in fact, which is a blessing.
    I truly fail to see why CQ opts out of using all our potentials at a time. And divides and uses it in portions and sections instead.

    #2
    We could have used two in front. In fact it did not make sense to lose so many crosses to chinese defenders who surrounded Azmoon. the crosses became predictable and JB did great giving the chinese the ball. We needed Mahdavikia.
    anyway with Azmoon only in front the game is so predictable by the opponent and with two everything becomes unpredictable for them. many crosses were bad and went to the other side in no man's land.
    we have to admit that CQ wanted to let Dej out to get rid of his yellow card so he put in shojaai .
    Dej would have made a big difference.
    One in front as sole striker even as Ibrahimovich does not work anymore.
    After we found out we could control speed of the game we should have gone for 2 in front, or at least dynamically change it.Change is needed.
    when JB was alone he took a wild shot and did not even do that right. I hate to think our players may not have gone to sleep on time. The opponent may have used entertainment as a way to weaken the team. everything is possible including MSG in food or tea,.....

    Comment


      #3
      One of our biggest problems against china specifically, was our transition from defense to offense. China would push numbers forward, lose the ball, not get back properly, yet we couldn't capitalize or counter well. Too many times both Ezzi and Ando would sit way to deep after winning the ball in transition, leaving a big gap between the forwards, and sending to few forward to take advantage of the counters. I'm not saying we need to send everyone forward, but at very minimum we need to send one of the DMs and everyone in front of him.

      Comment


        #4
        I think we can debate what may work better but ultimately CQ will do what he thinks is best. I'm not saying we shouldn't have our own ideas but it's clear CQ listens to CQ and rarely to anyone else.

        Now if we had some high calibre international players (this is not a slight on our players) then this would influence his thinking. We have a good team but not great players.
        CQ is first and foremost a pragmatic tactician. The teams he puts out are based not only on who we are playing, where we are playing (home/away) and where we are in the campaign. As we are only 2 games in I suspect he is most concerned with securing a solid (but not spectacular) start.

        Personally, I would have loved to have seen us put our opponents to the sword. But considering the lack of preparation and scant resources available to CQ he deployed them in order to not crash at the first corner.

        Considering how many individuals performed so poorly I am glad we ended up with 4 points. It could quite easily have been 2 or less.

        Tactics can be critical but without players performing to their best ability any tactic can be undermined.

        What if Azmoun has been a little more clinical with the chances he had. By my reckoning he had at least 3 chances (2 headers and 1 shot dragged wide of goal) against China.

        What if JB actually managed to put in a decent cross 50% of the time. That might have resulted in 1-2 more chances.

        What if Amiri actually did something constructive instead of looking so out of his depth. Now this can be attributed to CQ but he gave the player a chance and the player didn't deliver.

        At this level the margins between success and failure are very narrow. If just one of the factors above had been 20-30% better then we may be looking at an entirely different set of results.

        I think a number of members have stated that we will become more cohesive as the campaign drags on. We didn't have 25+ days of preparation like Qatar. We don't have the resources available to China. What we have is a potentially good team that needs more time to gel and also for the players to perform nearer to what they are capable of on a good day.

        Many international teams across the world have looked disjointed and poor. For many its the start of the season and players are finding their feet.

        In another post of mine I mentioned that I see this as a 3 way shootout between S.Korea, Uzbekistan and ourselves. One more negative result for either Qatar or China and they'll most likely be playing for no better than 3rd place or worse pride.

        I'm glad we are not in their shoes. Our destiny is in our hands! Let's hope the players grab it.

        We can question the tactics but one good dribble and cross from JB. A piece of skills from Azmoun. A surging run from Ez ... could have changed the course of the game against China but the players didn't manage to do that. I'm not blaming them ... but far too many players underperformed and I don't think the tactics or formation had anything to do with it.
        “I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler.” - Socrates

        Comment


          #5
          My biggest issue is not the 4-2-3-1 DD jaan. As dated as this formation is becoming, it's still a good formation and widely used and can be a great attacking formation - although it requires both of your DM's and one winger to join in the attack.

          Granted, we were a bit conservative with the formation and although Rezaeian was involved with many attacks, I would have liked to see Ezzi and Ando play further up and join our attacks more, especially in the 2nd half.

          My biggest issue is more tactical and the fact that after 45 or 49 crosses in 2 matches, we haven't scored a single goal with that strategy - we had 4 VERY good crosses into the box from Rezaeian yesterday and one by JB and Ando each.

          For whatever reason, the finishing wasn't/isn't there and when something's clearly not working we need to change it around IMHO. Not that we shouldn't use the wings at all, but I think to solely put the focus on that is counter-productive at this point.

          Not to mention that it becomes predictable after a while. We did see some short passing and nice give-and-go's yesterday which was promising compared to the Qatar match. I like to see us mix it up more and we definitely need to take more long range shots from the 20-25 yard range.

          As I said earlier, that would require our DM's to be involved in the attack to take those shots. We've only had 2 or 3 of those one from Torabi yesterday which I think was one of our best chances of the match and one from JB in the 1st match that ended in the back of the net.

          Ultimately, we're 1 out of 3 for long range shots and 0 for 45/49 for crosses, so it's good to maybe shift focus from the latter onto the former.

          Comment


            #6
            The main point of this thread is focused on the number of forwards/targets.
            As you all pointed, formations and tactics take secondary position to players' effort, running, delivering the required tasks. In other wirds, you could have any bloody formation. But as long as the players dont run, it would be an exercise in futility.

            However, as i said, given the half ass professionalism standards in Iran, fir those players to deliver, the easier the task, the more chances of success. And I dont care how old or new a formation is. Hell, if the ancient 3-5-2 works for a team and its players, then so be it.
            But I digress... . The reason was to propose a two forward solution to our team's shortage of goalscoring. The demands of the lone striker in CQ's formation is high. Too high for OUR kind of strikers. Now, it may fit perfectly for germany or france. I dont care. As far as Iran is considered, none of our strikers can deliver. They ought to be physically super fit to ward off two defenders. Because they are always at a numerical disadvantage. Always. Now, if we had a 28 year old Daei, he'd be able to pull it off. We dont. Sardar is still too young and not yet there ... at least physically. Both he and Ansarifard have the potential. But they're not there.

            But it doesn't stop there. The mid behind him ought to be extremely energetic and quick to be up there when required, to help with the numbers. He also needs to be a decent shot and with decent nose for goals. Adding all these, I dont see many players who can deliver. Perhaps if either Rahmani and/or Rafiei regain form, they could fit this position. Just MAYBE. But shojaei is too slow, tires early, has high turnovers, and not that good a shot (i'm not counting balls bouncing off his belly into goals, chaps).

            JB actually fits well into the system. But on the other side, we still dont have anyone that fits in perfectly. Amiri (of Naft. Not pp's) could do some of the duties. Not all. Hajsafi is more of a LM, than a LW. Taromi is totally wasted there. Dejagah also is nit suitable.

            So basically in defending wee have four D's and two DM's who fit into the formation. But in attack, we only have a RW that can fit. The rest are unsuitable and a hodge podge of players trying and struggling to do something.


            But the tasks and requisites are simpler in 4-4-2.
            Especially up front, two strikers literally increase our chances two folds at least. The opponent defenders dont enjoy such overwhelming numerical advantage and our lads can play off each other in line or one slightly more forward than the other. All the while the presence of a playmaker (CAM) behind, always offers a third option to feed and third cause for worry for opponent defenders.

            And I repeat, we have ALL the players suited for this formation. We dont have to struggle to fit a square box into a round hole .... just to boast ''we use modern formations''!!! Yes, some pp, actually bring up the ''modern'' argument.

            Comment


              #7
              And to answer khosro:
              yes, IF a dribble worked, or IF a header was aimed better, or IF ... , IF .... .
              But dont you agree if the players were more adept in their given duties, more of these 'IF's would turn out to be reality? And chances such as those would occur more often? And with more frequency, comes more success?

              Comment


                #8
                I agree, but who should be our attacking midfielder in a 442?
                The 4222 is fine. One striker needs to drop back to fill the hole in the middle

                Comment


                  #9
                  Lets not forget that Azmouns success at Rostov has been because he has been paired up in front. With 5 defenders it wouldve made sense to play with 2 strikers.
                  "History is a set of lies that people have agreed upon,"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I would go for a 4-3-3 :

                    - 4 defenders,
                    - 3 midfields in triangle : 1 defensive midfield staying in front + 2 offensive midfields (or one offensive and the other more defensive like Ando)
                    - 1 striker and 2 wingers.

                    Midfield will be dense so it makes it harder for the opponents. And it is more easy to build a good passing style of play

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I doubt CQ play with 2 target forwards, is it better formation for TM compare to 4-2-3-1? Maybe and depends on the game.
                      I always thought Azmoun and Taremi combination upfront as two target forwards in home games can be very productive, but some how he likes to play some of our targets as winger which is not a best option maybe.
                      TM main concern is a play-making position, i wouldn't mind trying Shojaeian(even for few minutes there), also i prefer starting Hajsafi as LW instead of Amiri
                      If CQ likes to play 4-2-3-1 i like to see this line up:
                      Beiro
                      Rezaeian-Montazeri-Hosseini(PAG)-Milad
                      Ando-Ezzat
                      JB-Shojaeian-Dejagah
                      Azmoun

                      or

                      Beiro
                      Rezaeian-Montazeri-Hosseini-Milad
                      Ando-Ezzat
                      JB-Dejagah-Hajsafi
                      Azmoun

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I would go with a 442, tbh Ezzatolahi seems way too inexperienced and young to be with the big boys as a starter but I feel pulling him out and using him as a sub could allow both Gucci and Azmoun or some combo to start out front. This gives you a targert service man and a bull dog to chase into dead space with creative passing and runs. We really miss this and in the past midfield players like Nikbakht, Karimi, Azizi, would fill this role...in recent history Khalatbari could fill this gap but right now our focus is too defensive in my mind. We play the same way against every team and hope for them to make a mistake rather than really creating.



                        Sent from my ME173X using Tapatalk
                        Remember RESPECT BEGETS RESPECT & Zob Ahan

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I think that 4-3-1-2 is the best option at the moment, hear me out

                          Montezari - Pouraliganji - Hosseini - Hajsafi
                          Dejagah - Ando - JB
                          Shojaei
                          RGN - Azmoun

                          I think this allows for more effective linkup play along the wings and allows us to spread out the game to our advantage. Ando is a strong core for defense, and I think shojaei plays at his strongest through the middle when he has space for dribbling and through-balls. JB has good cut-ins and links well with azmoun. Dejagah is good at powering forward for crosses and has good chemistry with gucci. Apart from this, JB and Dejagah are both fit enough to play the length of the pitch and come back when our attacks break down.

                          Another benefit is that this formation can be modified to different game situations, and allows for flexible positioning. For example we could also play this:

                          Montezari - Pouraliganji - Hosseini - Mohammadi ] Montezari - Pouraliganji - Hosseini - Hajsafi
                          JB - Ando - Hajsafi ] Ezatollahi - Ando - JB
                          Ezatollahi ] Dejagah
                          Azmoun - RGN ] RGN - Azmoun
                          Last edited by TM4LIFE; 09-07-2016, 01:54 PM.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by TM4LIFE View Post
                            I think that 4-3-1-2 is the best option at the moment, hear me out

                            Montezari - Pouraliganji - Hosseini - Hajsafi
                            Dejagah - Ando - JB
                            Shojaei
                            RGN - Azmoun

                            I think this allows for more effective linkup play along the wings and allows us to spread out the game to our advantage. Ando is a strong core for defense, and I think shojaei plays at his strongest through the middle when he has space for dribbling and through-balls. JB has good cut-ins and links well with azmoun. Dejagah is good at powering forward for crosses and has good chemistry with gucci. Apart from this, JB and Dejagah are both fit enough to play the length of the pitch and come back when our attacks break down.

                            Another benefit is that this formation can be modified to different game situations, and allows for flexible positioning. For example we could also play this:

                            Montezari - Pouraliganji - Hosseini - Mohammadi ] Montezari - Pouraliganji - Hosseini - Hajsafi
                            JB - Ando - Hajsafi ] Ezatollahi - Ando - JB
                            Ezatollahi ] Dejagah
                            Azmoun - RGN ] RGN - Azmoun

                            +1!!!!!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              ususally I would say no, but I really feel that gucci and azmoun should both be starting so why not

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