QUEIROZ vs BRANCO Discussion!

[tooleh khers]

Failed in 2006 at Dynamo Zagreb?
He had an undefeated record of 26-2-0 and won the double that season.

I wouldn’t really call that a failure but it was Branko so I guess it must've a failure by definition.

Lol at the anti Branko members. LOL How incorrect can people be and still insist. People use all kinds of assumptions and interpretations to nullify stats. I hope CQ is able to give his fans and more importantly TM fans something to cherish and talk about. Other than the two world cup qualification of course since we should value all the great results by our coaches and TM.

[Pouya]

Lol at the anti Branko members. LOL How incorrect can people be and still insist. People use all kinds of assumptions and interpretations to nullify stats. I hope CQ is able to give his fans and more importantly TM fans something to cherish and talk about. Other than the two world cup qualification of course since we should value all the great results by our coaches and TM.

LMAO at your persistence.

Here's his record since Jan. 2008 / after Dinamo Zagreb.

Jobless from Jan 2008 (after being let go from Dinamo Zagreb) until April 2010

Shandong Luneng - April 2010 - July 2011 (1 yr and 3 months)
36 matches, 21 wins, 10 draws, 5 losses
58% Win Ratio

Ettifaq - July 2011 - April 2012 (9 months)
52 matches, 18 wins, 3 draws, 13 losses
42% Win Ratio

Al-Wahda July 2012 - April 2013 (9 months)
34 matches, 18 wins, 3 draws, 13 losses
53% Win Ratio

Dinamo Zagreb - Sep. 2013 - October 2013 (1 month)
5 matches, 2 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses
40% Win Ratio

Jobless from October 2013 - April 2015 (Perspolis Debut)

[DR Strangemoosh]

Guys I wasn't even talking about Branko's record for Dynamo Zagreb. I was talking about what he did when he was TM manager with his contacts at the club and how it impacted the young player who was the most promising at the time and still our youngest IPL player-of-the-year winner - some people need to google what "football bung" means....

Anyway, anyone who says that Branko's "with one TM player we reached the...." comments isn't something which is meant to take away from any TM success, needs to wake up a bit. I don't agree with what the style that CQ talks to the media, but the sentiment is completely right about Professor Poison.

[Roxanaz80]

Was thinking...good thing we don't have koli talk shows or reality tv programs in Iran. This whole discussion would take on a whole new proportion.

Imagine WAGS, Iranian style...Branko liked my Gormeh Sabzi more than hers...she can't even cook etc... CQ fagadr khooneyeh ma miadesh....hija nemireh...

help!

[tooleh khers]

LMAO at your persistence.

Here's his record since Jan. 2008 / after Dinamo Zagreb.

Jobless from Jan 2008 (after being let go from Dinamo Zagreb) until April 2010

Shandong Luneng - April 2010 - July 2011 (1 yr and 3 months)
36 matches, 21 wins, 10 draws, 5 losses
58% Win Ratio

Ettifaq - July 2011 - April 2012 (9 months)
52 matches, 18 wins, 3 draws, 13 losses
42% Win Ratio

Al-Wahda July 2012 - April 2013 (9 months)
34 matches, 18 wins, 3 draws, 13 losses
53% Win Ratio

Dinamo Zagreb - Sep. 2013 - October 2013 (1 month)
5 matches, 2 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses
40% Win Ratio

Jobless from October 2013 - April 2015 (Perspolis Debut)

Your first sentence I agree with as for the rest:

He won the Chinese league setting record with Shandong Luneng, With Ettifaq he qualified a never relevant team to ACL (they lost to Esteghlal), Dinamo Zagreb he won the double. He has won two titles with Perspolis (should have been 3 PP was robbed) and an ACL final...But most importantly:

[IranPuma]

Your first sentence I agree with as for the rest:

He won the Chinese league setting record with Shandong Luneng, With Ettifaq he qualified a never relevant team to ACL (they lost to Esteghlal), Dinamo Zagreb he won the double. He has won two titles with Perspolis (should have been 3 PP was robbed) and an ACL final...But most importantly:

93 games vs 42....statistically speaking the whole thing is skewed. Plus with a lot of more qualifiers for Asian Cup and the World Cup against low tier Asian teams on hand of course the rankings of his opponents appear lower.

Looking at the state of Team Melli and the players available to both coaches when they took over, how in the world can anyone argue pro Branko and use these statistics as their backing point? Really

[K. Nader]

Lol at the anti Branko members. LOL How incorrect can people be and still insist. People use all kinds of assumptions and interpretations to nullify stats. I hope CQ is able to give his fans and more importantly TM fans something to cherish and talk about. Other than the two world cup qualification of course since we should value all the great results by our coaches and TM.

"His fans"? You are aware that "his fans" are the ones that prioritize Team Melli above clubs, right? It's the Persepolisi contingent that have gone viral with the 'Team Mellie Man Persepolise' nonsense.

Secondly, why are you posting selective statistics? The FIFA ranking formula was changed shortly after the 2006 WC and again after the 2018 WC. When you're not using like-for-like metrics, that argument is irrelevant.

In a nutshell, yes, Branko won several trophies with Iran (Asian Games, WAFF, 3rd place Asian Cup) but he was a tactically incompetent and inflexible manager that relied on the brilliance of individual players. He made no effort to give the team an identity, nor did he make any effort to nurture the next generation to ensure Team Melli's continued success. Lastly, he did nothing to improve the culture or infrastructure of football in Iran; maybe it's not necessarily a national team's coach to do so but either way, Branko was and is incapable of doing so.

CQ has been the opposite; on the trophies front, he has not won any (although I argue that the only tournament that he is in a position to win is the Asian Cup). That said, he has given the team an identity which is now globally recognized through quality World Cup performances that receive 100x the international attention of the Asian Cup, Asian Games, etc. We have world class ex-footballers and pundits praising the team and the capabilities of the team. CQ has done all this while tailoring a new generation of Team Melli footballers (most of which won't even peak for another 4-5 years) and revolutionizing our physical and mental conditioning. He has done this through initiatives such as PEC, bringing in world class staff, and yes, by being hot-headed and openly making demands until they are actually met.

Alternatively, I think the demand for Team Melli to win is a laughable one. Think of it this way: TM competes with the national teams of countries all over the world (but primarily those in Asia). All these nations have their own initiatives to improve their football so regardless of what we do in Iran, they will push forward. Post 2006 showed signs of what happens when you don't keep up and we had essentially become a tier 2 Asian side. As a modern coach with modern methods, CQ has built a side capable of playing modern football; it's even more amazing when you consider how we are practically a tier 3 Asian side at almost all of the youth levels. Those same players that can't beat the likes of Vietnam at the Asian Games will come into CQ's system to successfully compete against the likes of Chile, Spain, Portugal, and others one day.

In contrast, Persepolis is an Iranian club and aside from the ACL, their primary opposition are Iranian clubs. As the 'Real Madrid' or 'Manchester United' equivalent of Iran, their pockets are filled more than 95% of all Iranian clubs and they can attract just about nearly any Iranian player that they want. Despite this, following Ghotbi's era, they have spent millions on top footballers in the league only to throw them in the trash several months later, recycled through 12 managers in 7 years (2008 - 2015), and have done nearly nothing to nurture youth players and improve their infrastructure. Despite having the greatest means, they produced the least for the better part of 7-8 years. If anything, since they are in an environment that is comparable to their opposition, it is Persepolis that MUST be getting results on a regular basis considering that they have greater means. The same can't be said of national teams since each one operates in its own sphere and the actions which take place within those sphere determine success when sides collide.

[paas]

Your first sentence I agree with as for the rest:

He won the Chinese league setting record with Shandong Luneng, With Ettifaq he qualified a never relevant team to ACL (they lost to Esteghlal), Dinamo Zagreb he won the double. He has won two titles with Perspolis (should have been 3 PP was robbed) and an ACL final...But most importantly:

I don’t think you understand. Stats don’t matter!!
Especially when they favor Branko.

Now, if they don’t favor Branko or favor CQ, then they matter very much.
In fact in those cases it’s all about the numbers.

Get it?

[Tehranto]

I don’t think you understand. Stats don’t matter!!
Especially when they favor Branko.
Now, if they don’t favor Branko or favor CQ, then they matter very much.
In fact in those cases it’s all about the numbers.
Get it?

Read K.Nader's response above - it addresses this delusion. Stats matter, but context matters more.

Branko struggled and almost lost vs. the worst World Cup team in the last 20 years (Angola), with the likes of Daei, Hashemian, Karimi, Nekonaum, Teymourian and Mahdavikia.

He is terrible and would not get a job outside Iran, and has not been able to find a job outside Iran since 2013. Carlos is being linked to one of the best teams in the world in Colombia.

[paas]

Read K.Nader's response above - it addresses this delusion. Stats matter, but context matters more.

Branko struggled and almost lost vs. the worst World Cup team in the last 20 years (Angola), with the likes of Daei, Hashemian, Karimi, Nekonaum, Teymourian and Mahdavikia.

He is terrible and would not get a job outside Iran, and has not been able to find a job outside Iran since 2013. Carlos is being linked to one of the best teams in the world in Colombia.

Well if context matters, then does it matter that we played Angola after already being eliminated. ie we didn’t really have anything to play for. Does it also matter than 3 of our key players were injured before the World Cup.

And when did Angola all of the sudden become the worst team in WC history. They drew Mexico and just barely lost to Portugal. Were they worst than the likes of 8-0 Saudi Arabia China Togo Tunisia Honduras Panama etc etc. Or are we just gonna make them seem weak because it serves some anti-Branko agenda.

[Tehranto]

Well if context matters, then does it matter that we played Angola after already being eliminated. ie we didn’t really have anything to play for. Does it also matter than 3 of our key players were injured before the World Cup.

And when did Angola all of the sudden become the worst team in WC history. They drew Mexico and just barely lost to Portugal. Were they worst than the likes of 8-0 Saudi Arabia China Togo Tunisia Honduras Panama etc etc. Or are we just gonna make them seem weak because it serves some anti-Branko agenda.

My point exactly. The only time in our history in the World Cup where the last game was inconsequential. The guys were so out of shape under Branko, that they almost always gassed by minute 65 against anyone of value - and would make terrible mental mistakes.

The discord around TM camp was legendary, I remember on all of the forums (here, ISP, Iran Kicks) - the soap opera and the divisions within the camp, i.e. younger guys not mixing with the older guys because Ali Karimi and Ali Daei had issues. It was terrible. Who remembers also, during the Asian Cup when Ali Badavi and Rahman Rezaei slapped each other around.
It seems now he has balls cause he is shielding himself Iran's biggest club.

Also, there is a problem within the Persepolisi culture - it's not nice to say, but they are a bit na-deed (no Asian club championship). They have one guy who got them to the final (in a year where Saudi clubs invested all their resources into preparing for the World Cup and not giving two sh*ts about the ACL), and now he is some genius. Come on man ...

Never forget this ... now this Ali Karimi is kissing Branko's ass. 🐍

[Leopard]

Jerry Springer type discussion at this time is no fun. I would recommend freezing this thread and hide it till the cup is won by TM and brought home. Then you can all grab arrows and bows and fire at pictures of two coaches who have helped PP and the National team. Remember Jose , the situation was similar. eastern europe and Portugal have cultures that can lead to this type of situation. when a team does not want t give players to national team the coach looks bad no matter who he is or who he was. A club team's manager can lost his job so it is natural for him to argue and it is important for the national coach to ask for players and ignore the club manager. Remember Once GN was in battle with CQ also for the same reason.

These things are normal. Insulting is not and with the help of irani tabloids who keep on asking stupid questions to raise their rating the problem is escalated. If you guys care for TM just freeze and stop posting for another month on this thread. otherwise one can be hypocrite if he/she does nto follow what CQ said about Truce.

[DR Strangemoosh]

On a positive note, both these guys are pretty much the same age: 65 and 64, and they look good for their age (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KIX3kb7Yxs btw)

At the world cup in Russia I was really shocked by how out-of-shape Iranian men are getting on average, especially after a certain age, and in particular I noticed the ones who lived in Emirates looked really unhealthy. This is just my experience but I feel Iranians who are 35+ are getting less and less fit and healthy and this is worrying.

I hope they look at these two coaches and subconsciously correlate losing weight, fitness with longevity and success...

[paas]

"His fans"? You are aware that "his fans" are the ones that prioritize Team Melli above clubs, right? It's the Persepolisi contingent that have gone viral with the 'Team Mellie Man Persepolise' nonsense.

And who is responsible for creating such an atmosphere? Branko is doing great thing with Perspolis and is very popular among the fans. CQ literally takes a shit on him every chance he gets. Consistent rude posts on Instagram and facebook. The interview after the WC. Even after beating Yemen he started the shit talking again saying something about Branko praising Iraq (which he didn’t) and something about Ukrainian players.

And him calling Ali Karimi (highly popular among Perspolis fans) a coward and Mr. Quitter doesn’t exactly help does it?

Secondly, why are you posting selective statistics? The FIFA ranking formula was changed shortly after the 2006 WC and again after the 2018 WC. When you're not using like-for-like metrics, that argument is irrelevant.

So you’re gonna dismiss a 32 average ranking difference on formula changes. Ok. Still doesn’t explain the Win% and Point%. But I’m sure someone will find something to dismiss that as well.

In a nutshell, yes, Branko won several trophies with Iran (Asian Games, WAFF, 3rd place Asian Cup) but he was a tactically incompetent and inflexible manager that relied on the brilliance of individual players.

Tactically incompetent and inflexible manager? Those are not really facts. They’re more like opinions. Probably unqualified opinions to be honest. Look back at the 2004 Asian cup. After the Oman game 3 of his starting 4 defenders got suspended. He literally had to switch around 3 positions mid tournament against Japan and Korea and still got us through. Even against Korea Taghipour got concussed in the 17th minute and we had to switch to a back 3 because we were out of defenders. Are these sign of a tactically incompetent and inflexible manager?
And lets not forget how we had to play 10 men for 75 minutes against host China in the semis. Did the team break down and concede 3 times? No.

And this whole thing about being dependent on the brilliance of players. You make it sound like Branko would just send them out and tell them to go and win. Have you ever wondered why teams spend hundreds of millions on transfer fees to buy players. If it was so simple they would just bring CQ and he would set up a fail proof system that doesn’t require good players.

Every coach in the world depends on their players to get results. Including CQ. You think you can just take out our best players and put in average ones and the team will somehow still get results.

He made no effort to give the team an identity,

Didn’t give the team an identity? Again I’m not sure what that means. Was he supposed to turn us into a “Park the Bus” team to give us an identity? I mean the stats show the actually did a good job and got results so I’m not sure what you mean here.

nor did he make any effort to nurture the next generation to ensure Team Melli's continued success.

Here is a list of players he brought onto his team and their respective age.

Nekunam - 22
Kaebi - 17
Ando - 22
Borhani - 20
Nosrati – 21
Madanchi – 21
Shojaei – 20
Navidkia – 20

These guys didn’t make the wc squad.
Badavi – 21
Kamei – 22
Mobali – 20
Rahmati – 20
Alavi – 21
Zare – 21

Lastly, he did nothing to improve the culture or infrastructure of football in Iran; maybe it's not necessarily a national team's coach to do so but either way, Branko was and is incapable of doing so.

Not his responsibility. It’s the federation’s job to do this. And I’ll tell you something, we are miles away from being where we are supposed to in terms of infrastructure. So CQ hasn’t exactly fixed our infrastructure either. But then again, its not his responsibility or within his power.

And saying Branko is incable of doing so is again your opinion. Fyi, he’s helping Perspolis develop a proper football academy right now. Hopefully it won’t take 8 years to get a proper field and gym equipment set up.

CQ has been the opposite; on the trophies front, he has not won any (although I argue that the only tournament that he is in a position to win is the Asian Cup). That said, he has given the team an identity which is now globally recognized through quality World Cup performances that receive 100x the international attention of the Asian Cup, Asian Games, etc.

What exactly is our identity? A “park the bus” defensive team.

I wouldn’t exactly call the 2014 WC “quality”. We were one of the worst team in the tournament. We parked the bus and didn’t get raped against Argentina. Quality? Really?
You’re entitled to your opinion.

2018 World cup was much better. But then again it was by far the best squad we have ever taken to the world cup. (yes 2006 the players were injured). The team was stacked and the depth was not even comparable to any other team we have ever had. Think about it, Kaveh Rezaei scored 16 goals + 6 assists in Belgium and didn’t even called up. Ghoddos was on the bench. Gucci, who was the 2nd highest goal scorer in Holland in 2016 didn’t even play. Neither did Dejagah (but he was injured so its understandable). I could go on.

Was parking the bus the best strategy? Well we got 4 points and with a little bit of luck might have gone through, but you could also argue that our win against Morocco was completely lucky and the PK against Portugal was actually the wrong call.

But something more important is that against Spain and Portugal we played much better when we weren’t parking the bus. A lot of pundits were also saying exactly that. They said if we could play like that then why weren’t we doing that from the beginning.
So the question is, was that the best performance we put out there given the level of talent at our disposal?

We have world class ex-footballers and pundits praising the team and the capabilities of the team. CQ has done all this while tailoring a new generation of Team Melli footballers (most of which won't even peak for another 4-5 years) and revolutionizing our physical and mental conditioning. He has done this through initiatives such as PEC, bringing in world class staff, and yes, by being hot-headed and openly making demands until they are actually met.

Well when you are the coach for 8 years its natural to have a generational shift. It’s not even an option really. Also as a national team coach, you only have the players at your disposal for very limited time periods. Most of player developments are done at the club level and not at the PEC with TM staff.

Alternatively, I think the demand for Team Melli to win is a laughable one. Think of it this way: TM competes with the national teams of countries all over the world (but primarily those in Asia). All these nations have their own initiatives to improve their football so regardless of what we do in Iran, they will push forward. Post 2006 showed signs of what happens when you don't keep up and we had essentially become a tier 2 Asian side. As a modern coach with modern methods, CQ has built a side capable of playing modern football; it's even more amazing when you consider how we are practically a tier 3 Asian side at almost all of the youth levels. Those same players that can't beat the likes of Vietnam at the Asian Games will come into CQ's system to successfully compete against the likes of Chile, Spain, Portugal, and others one day.

Iran was never a tier 2 Asian side. There may have been a time where mismanagement, appointing inexperience managers like Daei and Ghotbi, and consistently firing them overnight hurt TM. But Iran has always been one of the top 4 teams in Asia.

This whole narrative that Iran was a tier 2 or 3 team in Asia and CQ came and raised our level is a joke. Iran has always been an Asian powerhouse. You guys make it sound like we were India and CQ came and revolutionized our football and took us to the wc. We’re supposed to go to the wc.

Italy didn’t make it to the wc this time. Are they all of the sudden a tier 2 or 3 European side. Same with the US, are they a tier 2 concacaf team?

And you are right we (usually) don’t produce at the youth level. Do you know why? Because we spend all our resources on the senior team. That has always been the case. Before CQ, during CQ. Etc.

In contrast, Persepolis is an Iranian club and aside from the ACL, their primary opposition are Iranian clubs. As the 'Real Madrid' or 'Manchester United' equivalent of Iran, their pockets are filled more than 95% of all Iranian clubs and they can attract just about nearly any Iranian player that they want. Despite this, following Ghotbi's era, they have spent millions on top footballers in the league only to throw them in the trash several months later, recycled through 12 managers in 7 years (2008 - 2015), and have done nearly nothing to nurture youth players and improve their infrastructure. Despite having the greatest means, they produced the least for the better part of 7-8 years. If anything, since they are in an environment that is comparable to their opposition, it is Persepolis that MUST be getting results on a regular basis considering that they have greater means. The same can't be said of national teams since each one operates in its own sphere and the actions which take place within those sphere determine success when sides collide.

Perspolis’ pockets are filled more than 95% of all Iranian clubs?
Do you realize the difference in budget between Iranian clubs and Persian gulf clubs?

Perspolis has had a transfer ban for the last 2 windows and Branko still managed to take the team to the final. Look at all the key players they lost in the summer and couldn’t get anything in return.

Branko took the team to the semis two years ago and to the finals this year. Especially in a tournament where our teams tend to struggle in. A lot of times our teams don’t even get out of the group. Give credit where credit is due.

[Abedzadeh]

LMAO at your persistence.
Here's his record since Jan. 2008 / after Dinamo Zagreb.
Jobless from Jan 2008 (after being let go from Dinamo Zagreb) until April 2010
Shandong Luneng - April 2010 - July 2011 (1 yr and 3 months)
36 matches, 21 wins, 10 draws, 5 losses
58% Win Ratio
Ettifaq - July 2011 - April 2012 (9 months)
52 matches, 18 wins, 3 draws, 13 losses
42% Win Ratio
Al-Wahda July 2012 - April 2013 (9 months)
34 matches, 18 wins, 3 draws, 13 losses
53% Win Ratio
Dinamo Zagreb - Sep. 2013 - October 2013 (1 month)
5 matches, 2 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses
40% Win Ratio
Jobless from October 2013 - April 2015 (Perspolis Debut)

It's worth noting that all these clubs fired him after only very short tenures.

Al-Wahda of the UAE originally signed him for a two-year contract, but since he disappointed, they axed him after only one year.

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/jos...coach-1.391790

Hickersberger was expected to arrive this morning and get to work immediately after Wahda parted company with Branko Ivankovic following a string of poor results.

Hickersberger replaces Ivankovic, who was dismissed after the team’s third consecutive league defeat and 11th in 23 games. The Croat was in the first year of a two-year deal and his last game in charge was a 4-3 home defeat to Ajman on Friday.

“It reached a point where Branko was unable to motivate the players and the management decided not to take any more chances, as we only have one title to play for now,” said Khaled Awadh, the assistant chief executive officer of the club.

It's actually reached the point now where some PP supporters are trying to reference statistics from crappy club teams in second-tier leagues (even by Asian standards), all of whom fired branko after very short term tenures, just to salvage his reputation. This is quite desperate, and very embarrassing to branko, not helpful.