(#POLL) Comparing coaches thread: Who is the best? Skocic, Wilmotz, CQ, Branko, Daei,

[oracle]

Who's the single vote for Branko? He must have a PFDC account.

there are alot of closet bronko fans in pfdc which have
switched to cq...if cq was not on the list bronko wouldwin by large margine.....

[Lorestani]

Ok let's give it another try: When you are playing chess on a high level, you will never expect your opponent to blunder his Queen or Rook in one move. Obviously Human Beings make mistakes in Chess, but you (maybe your are a GM?) and me won't capitalize on a mistake that Kasporov does, because we are not able to calculate 15-16 move ahead ( at least not me). Yet both of us will be able to see if someone just blunders his Queen in the next move, this doesn't signify that we are great tacticians. Hope you see my point.

Regarding CQ Analysis of China, did you had a chat with CQ about his Tactics for this game? Since you have mentions that CQ analyzed Chinas Games in AC 2019, None of their goals that they conceded had any pattern that would resemble the goals we scored against them. Nor does the Chances that Korea/Thailand/Philippines create against them resemble our goals. Keep also in mind, that we scored very similar goal against Oman, so according to your logic CQ had the same offensive game-plan for Oman and China, although they both have totally different style, which would be strange to propose for a Tactician that adapts to all the particularities of his opponent.

Your chess analogy is faulty. The question you punted is this: would you capitalize on your opponent blundering their queen or not? CQ did, I would, I guess everyone would, but somehow you wouldn't because it's beneath you to capitalize on your opponent's mistake? That's silly. So yes, if you anticipate your opponent's weaknesses well, give them more rope to hang themselves. Why not? And yes, it might not take a genius to do that, but someone who is willing to adapt his game and see his opponents weaknesses. I agree, it's not much to ask for, but then why isn't Skocic adapting his game based on who TM faces?


As for your second point, I already said that that if being in the locker room or chatting with CQ is the standard here, we all shouldn't debate. This is a silly point to be honest. On Oman, I beg to differ. Our game plan against them was significantly different. Go back and watch the game.

[Lorestani]

It is not because of the deficiencies that you have indicate that CQ is not on par with Pep, Mourinho etc. It is because most of the above mentioned Coaches Won Champions-League, Spanish-League, Premier-League, Euros and World-Cups. CQ didn't won anything as a Head-Coach of a National-team yet and even if he succeeded in winning the Africa Cup, he won't be comparable to say Joachim Löw. Therefore it is strange that you claim that Löw was not succeeding in implementing CQ-Tactics in Euros 2012 against Italy, as if Parking The Bus and waiting for Counter was invented by CQ (or do your mean any other particular Tactics that Löw misunderstood in copay pasting CQ.)

Man, you can't just take one word from my post and run with it. This is the second time your engagement with my posts and misinterpret them. I literally wrote what I compared, that is, Löw's man-marking of Pirlo, which I used as an example of a coach trying to adapt his game to his opponent, but failing instead of succeeding. The larger point was that this type of adaptation can obviously fail, hence the example. I never compared Löw and CQ as such, nor did I even mention "parking the bus" and "waiting for counters".

[Lorestani]

So you decided to stick to your story that CQ was brilliant because he told our players to pass to their defenders... So that the defenders could mis-control the ball leading to Sardar scoring!!!! And I am ridiculing myself....

Can you imagine getting subbed out at half time because you made perfectly accurate passes to Sardar every time instead of giving the ball away to their defenders like your coach asked you to...

Yeah, I'll go on ridiculing myself... it is great fun.

Pep Guardiola, tiki taka, kids stuff. We are going to hold a camp for a month in Austria on advanced passing to their defenders; How to never find your own teammates...

I don't know what you are trying to do. I explicated my viewpoint, which is based on solid evidence; you have decided to throw mud, which is fine.

[Lorestani]

Could you elaborate on that: in what way Löw missed to adopt CQ approach? I am sure you not just mean to Man-mark Pirlo right? (Can't remember that CQ faced Italy prior to 2012).

CQ was not free of any sort of Criticism. Portugal struggled under his management during the qualification for the 2010 World Cup. Despite starting their World Cup qualification campaign with a comfortable 4–0 win against Malta, CQ team failed to win any of their subsequent four matches. In a group with Denmark, Malta, Albania, Sweden, Hungary during WCQ, Portugal had to go UEAFA play offs where they managed to defeat Bosnia 1-0 to qualify for the WC 2010. In WC 2010 Protugal drew Ivory Coast (0-0), won against North Korea 7-0 ( funny enough that it would be Iran, if we had managed to win our away game against North Korea. Ghotbi one of our worst Coaches promised to win against North Korea "even on the moon"....). This rout virtually guaranteed Portugal passage to the second round and a second goalless draw with Brazil confirmed qualification. In the second round, they lost to Spain 1–0 and were knocked out having failed to score in three of their four World Cup matches. In fact after the Spain game, CQ got a lot of criticism in Portugal...

In what way had CQ more success than Löw?

I actually did. You are going off on a tangent here. Nothing in this post is related to what I said.

[Lorestani]

There is difference. there is something called forced error and unforced error. When you are constantly attacking and eventually the defense makes a mistake, then that is not luck.

What I call Luck was Ghochannejad scoring against Korea. Yes.

In game against Iraq, we ran the same play that Taremi scored on on multiple times. I believe that the players were instructed to make the long pass to Taremi from the back. That pass was practiced and deliberate. That was no HOOF the ball like we have been known to do. So far, I have seen all plays start from the back, without getting all panicky.

What you are believing here, and I am not saying you are wrong, is literally what I have been talking about with my Iran-China example from the 2019 Asian Cup.

[Philosophy_King]

Your chess analogy is faulty. The question you punted is this: would you capitalize on your opponent blundering their queen or not? CQ did, I would, I guess everyone would, but somehow you wouldn't because it's beneath you to capitalize on your opponent's mistake? That's silly. So yes, if you anticipate your opponent's weaknesses well, give them more rope to hang themselves. Why not? And yes, it might not take a genius to do that, but someone who is willing to adapt his game and see his opponents weaknesses. I agree, it's not much to ask for, but then why isn't Skocic adapting his game based on who TM faces?
As for your second point, I already said that that if being in the locker room or chatting with CQ is the standard here, we all shouldn't debate. This is a silly point to be honest. On Oman, I beg to differ. Our game plan against them was significantly different. Go back and watch the game.

My Chess analogy is not faulty at all. The more your Tactics is depending on the stupidity of your opponent, the lower is your actual Level of play. I am pretty sure, that you understood my point pretty well. You serious think that CQ told our boys, Guys just back to Traditional Iranian Ali-Asghari Long balls, so that the Chinese defenders blunder it away and we can capitalize on it? You totally ignored the fact that we did pretty the same thing against Oman, that Chinese didn't concede goals in any similar pattern during AC 2019 before TM etc. Hence the argument of "adaptation" is out of the window. Why is Skocic not adopting ? Well until now we got all the results we were asking for. We have never ever qualified with this ease, we never had defeated Bahrain on their soil EVER, we defeated Iraq 3 times in a row against whom we had struggled under before...

[Keshwardoost]

respect for that one branko fan. he did do great with PP, and now Oman, he may have evolved as a coach over the years..
I havent personaly followed his career so idk,but some get better over time and some just do the same thing over and over till its undated,.

[Philosophy_King]

Man, you can't just take one word from my post and run with it. This is the second time your engagement with my posts and misinterpret them. I literally wrote what I compared, that is, Löw's man-marking of Pirlo, which I used as an example of a coach trying to adapt his game to his opponent, but failing instead of succeeding. The larger point was that this type of adaptation can obviously fail, hence the example. I never compared Löw and CQ as such, nor did I even mention "parking the bus" and "waiting for counters".

I was just asking in what why are you comparing Löw and claiming, that he was "failing" to mimic CQ. He made it to the Semi-Finals of the Euros 2012, something CQ couldn't do with Portugal. And than speaking about man-marking Pirlo as a failed adaption. What about the rough WCQ-Road CQ and Portugal had to qualify for WC, seemingly there was not always the requested "adaptation" to the opponent. It is just silly and arbitrary to use Löw's "failure" (reaching Euro Semi-Finals and loosing 2-1), to show us how great CQ "adaptation"-Tactics were.

[Bladsville]

At least we can all agree that Wiltits was definitely the worst.

As another member mentioned, it was probably for the best what happened with Wiltits. Had he not been the total failure he was, I think there would have been a lot less appreciation for CQ and ultimately for Skocic. It validates that the manager position is not something anyone with a pulse can do and actually requires skill and determination.

[Lorestani]

I was just asking in what why are you comparing Löw and claiming, that he was "failing" to mimic CQ. He made it to the Semi-Finals of the Euros 2012, something CQ couldn't do with Portugal. And than speaking about man-marking Pirlo as a failed adaption. What about the rough WCQ-Road CQ and Portugal had to qualify for WC, seemingly there was not always the requested "adaptation" to the opponent. It is just silly and arbitrary to use Löw's "failure" (reaching Euro Semi-Finals and loosing 2-1), to show us how great CQ "adaptation"-Tactics were.

Again, you are not getting the point. Let me try again: adapting to the opponent's game is not always a recipe for success. This is a concession I am making, but you are somehow construing it as a Löw-CQ comparison in which I am supposedly saying CQ is better than Löw. I repeat, that was not the point. Adapting to your opponent might or might not fail. All coaches, including CQ have at some point failed doing that.

[Lorestani]

My Chess analogy is not faulty at all. The more your Tactics is depending on the stupidity of your opponent, the lower is your actual Level of play. I am pretty sure, that you understood my point pretty well. You serious think that CQ told our boys, Guys just back to Traditional Iranian Ali-Asghari Long balls, so that the Chinese defenders blunder it away and we can capitalize on it? You totally ignored the fact that we did pretty the same thing against Oman, that Chinese didn't concede goals in any similar pattern during AC 2019 before TM etc. Hence the argument of "adaptation" is out of the window. Why is Skocic not adopting ? Well until now we got all the results we were asking for. We have never ever qualified with this ease, we never had defeated Bahrain on their soil EVER, we defeated Iraq 3 times in a row against whom we had struggled under before...

I actually addressed that point head-on, but somehow you don't seem to read well. I don't know, it happens again and again. It's becoming quite tiring.

[Philosophy_King]

Again, you are not getting the point. Let me try again: adapting to the opponent's game is not always a recipe for success.

Thanks for sharing this deep wisdom.

[Philosophy_King]

I actually addressed that point head-on, but somehow you don't seem to read well. I don't know, it happens again and again. It's becoming quite tiring.

You told me watch this game, go watch that game, you don't understood this and that. Did you ever ask yourself, if you actually understood the points that other had made?
You didn't addressed the point that none of the goals , not even the chances that their opposition had created, resembled our goals against them. The point is simple, this kind of weakness was not apparent in their games before they faced TM ( i am referring to AC 2019!). And yes, It's becoming quite tiring.

Let's move on.

[ehsan singapore]

from the 7 people who voted for skocic can you explain to me how is he better than cq?i wish to know even ali daei is not a better talent spoter than cq i am sorry