Who's your daddy??? Thats right baby! Its..

[raminio05]

Ben wallace was a huge reason for their interior defense. Now rashid is their only inside guy. But the fact that the rest of the league is much better is 100% correct.
I have been tellin people the miami championship of 06 should have an "*" next to it cuz nobody was good that year but somebody had to win it!!
Seattle 96, utah. 97 &98, portland 00, sacramento 02, timberwolves 04 all woulda smoked the 06 heat

True. Without Ben, their not the same, but I dont think that their overrated.
As for the 06 heat, I kinda agree with you, but I think you might be underestimating them a little bit. Wayde was simply spectacular that season and the other role players did their part. But yeah, it was a whole different league then. So much has changed from then till now.

[persianbruin]

You said that "There is no one that can take over like he does." You didn't mention anything about consistency, or how many times or for how long.
I just pointed out to you that there IS somebody who CAN take over like he does, and his name is Lebron. If you don't want to take into consideration the fact that Kobe has a much stronger supporting cast around him now than Lebron, then you aren't looking at the big picture. Not to mention that Kobe is 29 years old, and a 22 year old Lebron has already lead his team to the NBA finals single handedly.
As great as Kobe is, what has he ever accomplished since Shaq left LA? Besides score a ton of points for a mediocre team, not much. Once again he has a strong center like Pau playing with him and he's ready to dominate.
I can't even begin to fathom how many titles Lebron would win if he had a dominant center like Shaq making life easy for him. Even despite that, don't try to tell me that "no one can take over a game like Kobe", since Lebron has already proved you wrong in the past.

Dude I expect this from uneducated people but not from you!!!! The lakers didnt just lost shaq. They lost everyone!!

Dont forget the lakers WITH shaq in 02-03 had a losing record deep into january. It took a string of 9 straight 40 point games from kobe t get the into playoff positioning. People's excuse backj then was that kobe could score because of shaq, now we all know its so untrue!!!!!

The lakers got back into the mix because of karl malone and gary payton not shaq. shaq was old and washed up. Kobe wanted him to lose weight and buss wanted him to get a paycut so the lakers cold add more player for another run at the championship. He said NO!! so what did he do? He went to the heat, lost 35 pounds and got a huge paycut!!!!!!!

If anything, his success was a result of what kobe and buss wanted him to do which makes them right all along!! This is actually when I truly realized how little common sense the avg american has!!

There was an article couple years ago that showed how big the contribution of the 3 players the heat got as a result of the paycut by shaq were in the playoffs. If hae had done that with LA, kobe wouldnt have wanted him out to begin with.

I always say, if shaq gets traded every year, he would be playing good every year cuz he only plays good when he has something to prove

[Babak]

Dude I expect this from uneducated people but not from you!!!! The lakers didnt just lost shaq. They lost everyone!!
Dont forget the lakers WITH shaq in 02-03 had a losing record deep into january. It took a string of 9 straight 40 point games from kobe t get the into playoff positioning. People's excuse backj then was that kobe could score because of shaq, now we all know its so untrue!!!!!
The lakers got back into the mix because of karl malone and gary payton not shaq. shaq was old and washed up. Kobe wanted him to lose weight and buss wanted him to get a paycut so the lakers cold add more player for another run at the championship. He said NO!! so what did he do? He went to the heat, lost 35 pounds and got a huge paycut!!!!!!!
If anything, his success was a result of what kobe and buss wanted him to do which makes them right all along!! This is actually when I truly realized how little common sense the avg american has!!
There was an article couple years ago that showed how big the contribution of the 3 players the heat got as a result of the paycut by shaq were in the playoffs. If hae had done that with LA, kobe wouldnt have wanted him out to begin with.
I always say, if shaq gets traded every year, he would be playing good every year cuz he only plays good when he has something to prove

So it must be a coincidence that 3 different NBA teams reached the NBA finals, and 2 of them won it with a common denominator by the name of Shaquille O'Neal. Don't forget he lead Orlando to the NBA finals in his 2nd season, won several championships with the Lakers, and immediately won another one with Miami.

Ironically, Dwayne Wade's NBA success since that title, without Shaq next to his side is eerily resemblant of what Kobe went through since the departure of Shaq. Maybe thats a coincidence too?

Raminio: If you have to mention Damon Jones as a "key" role player for Lebron, you know you're really short on material. How many All-Stars does Lebron have next to him to take the pressure off?

Kobe is playing with 2 All-Star talents in Pau and Odom. Both of those guys would easily be the 2nd best player on Cleveland by a mile. And if you want to talk about 4th quarter dominance, I think Lebron scoring 32 of his team's final 34 points against a tough defense like the Detroit Pistons says a lot more than a player deciding to shoot 50 times in a regular season game against poor teams to pad his stats.

Kobe is not the only NBA player capable of scoring 80 in a game. But he's the only NBA player with the freedom, and to an extent the selfishness, to shoot over 50 times in an NBA basketball game.

[persianbruin]

So it must be a coincidence that 3 different NBA teams reached the NBA finals, and 2 of them won it with a common denominator by the name of Shaquille O'Neal. Don't forget he lead Orlando to the NBA finals in his 2nd season, won several championships with the Lakers, and immediately won another one with Miami.
Ironically, Dwayne Wade's NBA success since that title, without Shaq next to his side is eerily resemblant of what Kobe went through since the departure of Shaq. Maybe thats a coincidence too?
Raminio: If you have to mention Damon Jones as a "key" role player for Lebron, you know you're really short on material. How many All-Stars does Lebron have next to him to take the pressure off?
Kobe is playing with 2 All-Star talents in Pau and Odom. Both of those guys would easily be the 2nd best player on Cleveland by a mile. And if you want to talk about 4th quarter dominance, I think Lebron scoring 32 of his team's final 34 points against a tough defense like the Detroit Pistons says a lot more than a player deciding to shoot 50 times in a regular season game against poor teams to pad his stats.
Kobe is not the only NBA player capable of scoring 80 in a game. But he's the only NBA player with the freedom, and to an extent the selfishness, to shoot over 50 times in an NBA basketball game.

Read what I said before, that is exactly wat I am saying!!

1) with the exception of his rookie year, shaq has ALWAYS played with a dominant guard.

2) Shaq was the most dominant player in the game till 99-00. When he finally won the championship he lost that desire evident by the lakers record in the regular season in 00-01 and 01-02. If there was an award for "playoff MVP" kobe woulda easily won it 2 years in a row, but whenthe lakers got to the finals against a defenseless eastern team shaq would take over and win the MVP of the finals.

3) If shaq had 10% of the work eithic of kobe he woulda won 10 MVPs cuz he was THAT good. Dont get me wrong, shaq was awsome he just didnt try hard enough.

4) The lakers after their loss to the kings on christmas day 2002 had a record of 11-19 WITH shaq!!!! again it took a string of Kobe 40 + point games for them to get back in it, after the playoff loss to the spurs the lakers realized with the supporting cast aging they need new blood and they got payton and malone. If it wasnt for malone there would be no way in hell the lakers could beat the timberwolves(garnett) and spurs(duncan). malone went down with injury in the finals and we sa how the pistons took advantage of that.

5)shaq's first year with the heat was probably his second best year ever because he wanted to prove something, but they still couldnt make it cuz D wade was no kobe and still isnt and will never be.

6) shaq gets a paycut the heat get james posey, jayson williams and antoin walker(several time allstar) His "backup" center is alanzo mourning!!! and he has the experienced hall of famer gary payton along with dwade and all the other young blood. Once the heat won the championship what happened??? The following year with pretty much the same team they dont even win a playoff game let alone a series!!!!!!!!! How often does that happen?

7) shaq's team is in the bottom of theconference and he is saved by gettin traded!!!! Kobe with all of those no namers and in the much tougher western conference never came even close the bottom of the conference

To me the 45 wins 2 years ago was waay waay more impressive than their 57 tally this year. If you can drag smush parker, kwame brown and brian cook to the playoffs and only one rebound shy of eliminating phoenix you are good!! REALLY GOOD!!

One last note, remember nobody was willing to give their super star for shaq in 04. The odom/butler/grant was the best offer on the table. Some people are lucky al the time and shaq is one of them!!

[Babak]

One last note, remember nobody was willing to give their super star for shaq in 04. The odom/butler/grant was the best offer on the table. Some people are lucky al the time and shaq is one of them!!

Nobody was willing to give their super star for Shaq? How could any team possibly ask for more than Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, 2 big time All-Star talents?

How Mitch Kupchak decided to trade a star like Caron Butler for Kwame, one of the worst players in NBA history is beyond comprehension.

[persianbruin]

Nobody was willing to give their super star for Shaq? How could any team possibly ask for more than Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, 2 big time All-Star talents?
How Mitch Kupchak decided to trade a star like Caron Butler for Kwame, one of the worst players in NBA history is beyond comprehension.

the lakers wanted J oneil and the pacers said no. The lakers wanted novitzki, cuban sad no. I even remmeber shaunie oneil(shaq's wife) even publically pleaded. She said we ave family in dallas and cuban still said anyone but nowitzki. The lakers wanted garnett, they were LAUGHED at!!!! Even with miami the lakers wanted wade who ahd just finished his brilliant rookie year and pat riley said ANYONE but wade, so that offere was pretty much the best offer. Now the answer fo your questions:

The lakers were lloking at this whole thing in the long run. Bruian grant was only part of thedeal so the salaries would match. The lakers thinking was in 3 years we will have a huge open saraly cap to make a run at either amare or yao. Problem is before the 3 years were even over both signed max contracts with their respective teams so that backfired.

As for kwame, the reason was the lakers signed vlade but he was injured like only 2 games into the season!! so they lacked size in the big western conference (04-05) which was one of the reasons the lakers lost so many games. Chris Mihm wasnt the answer. So the lakers drafted bynum and were FORCED to get kwame for butler so they can match up against other teams. So this basically sums it all up. Remmeber kwame is not gettin any playin time with that sorryass of a team memphis. Smush is hardly even a reserve player with the yucky clippers!!

BOTH WERE """"STARTERS""" WITH THE LAKERS!!!!

Honestly, I have no idea how the lakers won 45 games in the wetern conference with THOSE players playing major minutes. Kudos to Kobe!!! Seriously!! Remember, in the same conference garnett was nowhere close to a playoff berth with a better supporting cast.

[Babak]

Everything you say may be true. But back to the main point: Lebron has shown to be just as dominant a player as Kobe, even with less of a supporting cast around him. He's 7 years younger than Kobe, and will prove his greatness for any years to come. Kobe is great, but that shouldn't take away from what Lebron has shown so far in his young career.

[persianbruin]

Everything you say may be true. But back to the main point: Lebron has shown to be just as dominant a player as Kobe, even with less of a supporting cast around him. He's 7 years younger than Kobe, and will prove his greatness for any years to come. Kobe is great, but that shouldn't take away from what Lebron has shown so far in his young career.

In 2000 they were comparing vince vs kobe
In 2001 it was AI vs Kobe
In 2003 it was Tmac vs Kobe
In 2004 it was KG vs Kobe
in 2006 it was dwade vs Kobe

and now it LbJ vs Kobe

The difference is LbJ is the only one of the mentioned who truly deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Kobe so I do agree with you that LbJ is one of the best players of alltime and maybe the best in his position but he still is not where he could be but he might never get there cuz he doesnt have that killing instinct MJ and Kobe had and have.

Age is not an excuse, Kobe was a championship guard at the age of 21. When shaq fouled out in the finals in overtime Kobe grabbed the series by the throat ON THE ROAD and burried the pacers.(youtube)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=

agree though that LBJ is the next great player

[raminio05]

Raminio: If you have to mention Damon Jones as a "key" role player for Lebron, you know you're really short on material. How many All-Stars does Lebron have next to him to take the pressure off?
Kobe is playing with 2 All-Star talents in Pau and Odom. Both of those guys would easily be the 2nd best player on Cleveland by a mile. And if you want to talk about 4th quarter dominance, I think Lebron scoring 32 of his team's final 34 points against a tough defense like the Detroit Pistons says a lot more than a player deciding to shoot 50 times in a regular season game against poor teams to pad his stats.
Kobe is not the only NBA player capable of scoring 80 in a game. But he's the only NBA player with the freedom, and to an extent the selfishness, to shoot over 50 times in an NBA basketball game.

Lebron now has a much better supporting cast than Kobe did the first season after Shaq left. And he still was able to take over games CONSISTENTLY. When Kobe has had highscoring games, it has been with a good shooting percentage. Yes, there are others who could try to score 80, but it would probably take them 20 more shots.
Yes, Lebron did have ONE amazing game, but until he can start taking over in the fourth quarter consistently, then we can discuss this.

[milad]

In 2000 they were comparing vince vs kobe
In 2001 it was AI vs Kobe
In 2003 it was Tmac vs Kobe
In 2004 it was KG vs Kobe
in 2006 it was dwade vs Kobe
and now it LbJ vs Kobe

you cant really compare garnett and kobe. i would say garnett has always been better as an all around player. tmac, wade, and carter were never consistently as good as kobe, but iverson was better. so its not fair to include garnett and iverson in that list. you can argue that garnett doesnt take his team far but statistically he has always been the most efficient player in the league.

[persianbruin]

you cant really compare garnett and kobe. i would say garnett has always been better as an all around player. tmac, wade, and carter were never consistently as good as kobe, but iverson was better. so its not fair to include garnett and iverson in that list. you can argue that garnett doesnt take his team far but statistically he has always been the most efficient player in the league.

First of all its not what I say, Its what the media like to say. To me nobody even comes close Kobe except LBJ. Secondly AI has never been better than kobe and some people in the league even criticized phili for not pickin Kobe instead of AI in the draft

Only a biased person would say AI is a better player than Kobe. :bs: :bs:

Even the reasoning when AI won the MVP was that he was more valuable to his team not that he was a better player.

[milad]

First of all its not what I say, Its what the media like to say. To me nobody even comes close Kobe except LBJ. Secondly AI has never been better than kobe and some people in the league even criticized phili for not pickin Kobe instead of AI in the draft
Only a biased person would say AI is a better player than Kobe. :bs: :bs:
Even the reasoning when AI won the MVP was that he was more valuable to his team not that he was a better player.

youre the bias one my friend. AI has always been better at scoring, assists, and steals then kobe.

this season AI had more assists, steals, less turnovers. field goal and 3 point % were the same. kobe got 3 more point/game and thats because AI played as point gaurd. obviously kobe got more rebounds and blocks due to extreme height advantage. when AI was a shooting gaurd he always outscored kobe. just face it, AI is overall a better scorer, better passer, and better stealer than kobe. these are the main aspects.

[persianbruin]

youre the bias one my friend. AI has always been better at scoring, assists, and steals then kobe.
this season AI had more assists, steals, less turnovers. field goal and 3 point % were the same. kobe got 3 more point/game and thats because AI played at 1. obviously kobe got more rebounds due to extreme height advantage. when AI was a shooting gaurd he always outscored kobe. just face it, AI is overall a better scorer, better passer, and better stealer than kobe. these are the main aspects.

how am I the biased one??? AI has nevr ever been better than kobe in scoring. He was the man on his team from day1 thats why he could score as much as he wanted to. Kobe didnt have the freedom, once he got that freedom there was no contest. Nobody in the league is afraid of AI. Everyone pees their pants when they see Kobe. AI is better in steals cuz he is a point gaurd really not a shooting gaurd.

AI has carmelo, k-mart and camby and he barely even made the playoffs!!! As bad as the lakers supporting cast was the lakers were on rebound away from eliminating the suns 2 years ago. The nuggs are losing by an avg of 16 points a game and are on the verge of gettin swept!!

CNNSI had this poll a couple of months back among NBA PLAYERS askin who is the player you least wanna go up agaisnt in the league? Kobe had 35% of the vote the next 4 on the list (shaq, LBJ and couple of others) COMBINED had 24%!!!!!!!!!

What Kobe has done scoring wise even MJ hasnt done and wilt is the only one who can look at him and say, been there done that!!!!!

I dont know you personally but unless someone has an agenda against KOBE they are gonna laugh at you if you tell him AI is a better player than kobe so for your own credibilty's sake dont tell that to people its not gonna bode well on your bball knowledge!

P.S. from all the people toronto fans should really really zip it when it comes to kobe!

[Darvish11]

Even the reasoning when AI won the MVP was that he was more valuable to his team not that he was a better player.

How dare you diminish one of the greatest individual seasons in the history of the NBA. You keep bringing up smush parker and kwame brown and how kobe couldnt do anything with them, try george lynch and tyrone hill, try getting them the best record in the eastern conference, and try taking them to the finals. Hell yeah he was more valuable to the team that year and he was also a hell of a lot better than kobe that year. Tyron Lue got FAMOUS because of the defensive job he did on iverson in that finals series, even though iverson averaged 35! Kobe has gotten 50 points once in the playoffs in his life; Iverson dropped 50 like 5 times in that playoffs ALONE! How the hell can you say kobe is a better SCORER than a guy who has 4 scoring titles, is #3 in points per game ALL TIME behind some dudes named wilt and michael, and #2 in playoff ppg ALL TIME?!

And you say its all because he didnt have a chance to score right? He never had the opportunity to shine like iverson right? Well, ill leave you with this:

[persianbruin]

How dare you diminish one of the greatest individual seasons in the history of the NBA. You keep bringing up smush parker and kwame brown and how kobe couldnt do anything with them, try george lynch and tyrone hill, try getting them the best record in the eastern conference, and try taking them to the finals. Hell yeah he was more valuable to the team that year and he was also a hell of a lot better than kobe that year. Tyron Lue got FAMOUS because of the defensive job he did on iverson in that finals series, even though iverson averaged 35! Kobe has gotten 50 points once in the playoffs in his life; Iverson dropped 50 like 5 times in that playoffs ALONE! How the hell can you say kobe is a better SCORER than a guy who has 4 scoring titles, is #3 in points per game ALL TIME behind some dudes named wilt and michael, and #2 in playoff ppg ALL TIME?!
And you say its all because he didnt have a chance to score right? He never had the opportunity to shine like iverson right? Well, ill leave you with this:

george lynch and trone hill played years in this league as valuable pieces to the puzzle. George lynch was a laker and a member of the 1993 NC national championship and he was drafted by the lakers as a defender not scorer.( ironically he wore #24)

Philly made it to the finals because of defense not offense. Eric snow, geroge lynch, aaron mckie, mutombo and tyrone hill were all great defenders and AI was at the peak of its career. AI won the MVP because neither shaq nor kobe could get it because each one had the other as a teammate

Dude go talk to someone who doesnt know anything about bball. I have been following NBA religously since you guys werent even sperms

and I dont watch the game only. I listen to the analysis and read articles. I NEVER EVER judge anyone by sportscenter highlights cuz that is as biased as the shit gets.

As far as AI winning because of that reasoning, that was what the people who voted for him said not me!!! To me that was a dumb reasoning to begin with!!! If I had a vote I would given it to tim duncan that year who had the best regular season in the 00-01 season

as for smush and kwame, they are not even plying for the floormats of the nba and you are comparing them to great contributers like lynch and hill??

Kobe woulda avged 50 a game in the playoffs but sacrificed that for the good of a team and the result: 3 championships. Its not a coincidence that kobe's only 50 point playoff game came when there was no shaq. Personally, I take kobe's 45 point game AT san antonio (best record in the NBA) in the playoffs over any other playoff performance any day!! Even horace grant after that game said I had never seen MJ play like that in the playoffs.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST: I am not saying AI is not a good player cuz he obviously is a GREAT player but he has never been as good as Kobe and he will never be. He has a better supporting cast. He has more talented players around him and he is in 3-0 funk in the playoffs, NUF said!!