The Kobe Thread

[ommy48]

Just the Facts Please, Just the Facts


There are the Kobe-lovers and Jordan-lovers, and it's fun to talk about which player is really better with a beer in hand and the game on the tube. But an objective look at the facts leaves only one conclusion: There is no doubt. Michael Jordan was the better player, with the better stats, and the greater achievements.

Despite what the Kobe-lovers may think about such a seemingly one-sided statement, we need only look at offensive output and defensive outut by career and individual season to see that MJ gets the nod.


Here are the facts...:

Offensive Output: Jordan Has the Numbers

Scoring, assists, rebounds...

Whether we're looking at scoring, assists, or offensive rebounds - by career or overall best season - MJ has the advantage:



Defensive Output: Jordan Comes Out on Top


Again, whether looking at steals, blocked shots or rebounds - by career or overall best season - Jordan is the man.

What many who never saw MJ play fail to realize is that he was one of the most feared defenders in the league. He had a way of disarming his opponents with smiles, jokes and back-slaps, just before the whistle blew and he once again stole the ball from an opponent who was suddenly not laughing.

Jordan was the rare offensive master who was also so effective on defensive, in 1988.




The FIRST PLAYER IN HISTORY TO WIN THE NBA MVP AND DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR AWARD IN THE SAME YEAR: 1988, that same year he was also All-star game MVP, Scoring Champion, Slam Dunk Champ and avg'd 35 PPG (the only other player to be both DPofY and MVP was Hakeem in 1994). Mind you this was his THIRD FULL SEASON IN THE NBA.

[ommy48]

Michael Jordan Comparison With His "Heirs" and Current NBA Stars.


This is a comparison of Michael Jordan's numbers with those achieved by the players signaled as his heirs and other current stars.

As soon as MJ put a step off the court after his second retirement, everybody started to look for the "next Jordan". Kobe Bryant, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett and more recently Lebron James and Dwyane Wade are some of his "heirs".

http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/c...rent_stars.htm

[ommy48]

MJ: The greatest there ever will be.

The numbers and accomplishments are immeasurable. The moves and moments are indomitable. The impact on the game, social culture and sports history is transcendent.

NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS (UPDATED 12/17/08): As of one year ago
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)

1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points

(Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 85 total points
2nd Place: Tim, 73 total points
3rd Place: KB, 54 total points




ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Career: Kareem 38387
- Most Total Points Season: Wilt 4029
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most Total Points Finals: West 1679
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 60 point games: Wilt 32
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: Manu 24
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: LBJ 25
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: KB 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Carmelo/Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

[ommy48]

Too young to remember MJ's prime? Not me

Charley Rosen Fox Sports
As a result, too many NBA fans remember MJ only as a slightly overweight jump-shooter, while many younger fans can only vaguely recall His Airness' halcyon days.


As the Hall of Fame prepares to admit its latest honorees, and to remind us, one and all, here's a scouting report on the player who many observers consider to be the best of all time.



Offense


Although he was not nearly as comfortable shooting with his left hand as he was with his right, Jordan's hands were abnormally large. As a result, he had incredible ball control and was an imaginative and a powerhouse finisher whether on the run, or when surrounded by hostile big men. MJ's legendary hang time also enabled him to assault the basket when his defenders were already coming back to earth.

Of course, Jordan could run and sky with anybody who ever played the game. And at 6-foot-6 and 216 pounds, Jordan possessed a tensile strength that made him able to absorb a big hit without getting derailed, which is why he was the beneficiary of so many "and-one" 3-point plays.

He had a super-quick first step, a warp-speed last step and a tricky reverse-dribble going either way. Plus, his jumper was equally effective when he was stopping-and-popping going left or right.As he continued to adapt his game to the NBA, Jordan also refined his post-up moves. Eventually, he mastered a turn-around-fade-away jumper that was literally unstoppable.

[SIZE="6"]He could also see the floor and pass like a point guard and rebound like an undersized power forward. In other words, there was no offensive skill that Jordan didn't eventually master.[/SIZE]Off-balance treys with a defender hanging on his shooting arm, pull-up J's that left opponents flat-footed, soaring dunks while defenders were still gathering to jump at his shot, win-or-lose free-throws ... Jordan almost always found a way to put a ballgame on ice.

How did opposing teams attempt to control his explosive offense?

By knocking him down as much as possible, e.g., the Bad Boy Pistons "Jordan Rules." And by keeping him busy on defense. None of these strategies worked for long.



Defense


His defense was less spectacular than his offense but just as decisive. In fact, Jordan was the most accomplished screen-dodger in NBA history.



How good was he?

Good enough to win six rings, lead the league in scoring 10 times, play in 13 All-Star Games, be named to 10 All-NBA teams ... and so on. According to Phil Jackson, "Jordan was so good in every aspect of the game that he absolutely ruined every drill I could devise. If it was a defensive drill, he'd score. If it was an offensive drill, he'd come up with a steal. He could ruin a practice session singlehandedly."


They didn't call him "Air" Jordan for nothing. (Stephen Dunn / Getty Images)
Even so, more than his honors, awards, rings, numbers and definable skills, In sum, nobody before or since could approach Michael Jordan's exalted combination of scintillating talent and game-eating fire.

[ommy48]

To most sports fans, this topic has been a continuing debate for years. Love him or hate him, Kobe Bryant has emerged as possibly the biggest star in basketball in today's game.


Taking a closer look at the comparison of Jordan and Bryant requires more than just subjective standpoints based on fan bias and common assumptions. Most longtime fans would agree that Michael Jordan is the superior player. However, some of the younger fans choose Kobe over MJ. When taking full analysis, it comes quite clear that MJ is the better basketball player, and possibly the best of all-time.

Jordan globalized basketball during his career with his unique athleticism and graceful style of play. When asked for the complete basketball player, he has the whole package. Jordan has a keen sense of putting the ball in the hoop by any means necessary as well as making the highly improbable look easy. It should be noted that Jordan played in the best defensive era in NBA history, which is largely due to the lack of sensitivity when calling fouls.

Bryant is the closest thing to Jordan we've seen in the history of basketball. He shares that same rare ability to score at will, no matter what a defense throws at him.

Bryant has three scoring titles, but Jordan eclipses that number with ten. Bryant has been acknowledged for his defense by being named to the all-defense team multiple times, but Jordan has been elected best defensive player of the year, something Bryant has never done. Jordan made a direct impact on the game when he arrived to the league and was the NBA's rookie of the year in 1984. Bryant developed his game after a couple of seasons before making any impact on the league.


Jordan averaged more points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks throughout his career than Bryant has in his career.

Jordan's playoff numbers exceed Kobe's as well. Nobody has outscored Jordan in the playoffs, considering his average for points per game is higher than every other player in NBA history. Also, Jordan holds the record for the highest points per game average in a single playoff series as well as for the NBA Finals.

Stats may not be everything in the playoffs, but while MJ posted these astounding numbers, he also led his team to six titles in a single decade, recording six NBA Finals MVPs while doing it.


Many Jordan backers argue that Bryant never could win without Shaq, while Bryant fans state that Jordan never won without Pippen. However, most people fail to remember the NBA title won in 1998 by Jordan and the Bulls. Why this championship was so special is because Scottie Pippen, Jordan's Robin, remained injured due to his back throughout the entirety of the playoffs. This caused MJ to put the team on his back and lead the Bulls to another title ultimately by himself, something Bryant has yet to do.

Also, a key example of Bryant's failure to finish off in the NBA Finals was in 2004 when he had an ensemble of four future hall-of-famers in the starting lineup. In attempts to take over, Bryant took multiple unadvised shots as he got shut down by Tayshaun Prince and the Pistons. The Detroit Pistons dominated the series, winning four games to one.

Jordan won every single NBA Finals series he played in. Not once did he get shut down when it mattered the most.



Although skills are arguably determined through subjective view, most would agree that Jordan exceeds Bryant in passing, rebounding, defense, winning, making his teammates better, attacking the basket and completing ultra-spectacular highlights.

The skill in question for Jordan in comparison to Bryant would have to be his shooting. However, Jordan's career field goal percentage of 49.8 percent is drastically better than Bryant's. Not once has Bryant averaged at least 50 percent in even one single season.Bryant's 3-point shooting and free throw shooting is better by a hair, but this only includes regular season play. Jordan's shooting percentages are overall better than Bryant's when it comes to the playoffs.


Another category that some find debate in would be shooting in the clutch. Jordan is famously known for his spectacular game winners, and Bryant is getting the same great reputation. However, in a study made beginning with the last year of Jordan's career, Jordan outplayed Bryant in the clutch by shooting almost seven percentage points better in such situations. This is while an older, chubby Jordan is supposed to be in the worst shape of his career, having knees that can barely function, and in one of his worst shooting seasons of his career. Bryant makes plenty of game winners in the regular season, but nobody has made more huge shots in the playoffs than Jordan. Jordan's ability to take over in the fourth quarter is undeniably the best ever, especially in the postseason where it matters the most.

With all the statistics, awards, and championships, Jordan seems like the easy pick over Bryant as the superior basketball player. His skill set, selfless attitude, and basketball smarts outclass Bryant's. Jordan is considered by many the greatest basketball player ever. If Bryant wants to be seen in the same light as "His Airness," he has a long, rough road ahead of him.

[ommy48]

I don't think it's fair to compare players from the past so directly towards players right now.

Example: Maradona vs. Messi. Maradona was the greatest because of his domination. And Messi for the same regard. But head to head Messi is a much better player athletically simply because he was born in an era where competition is more fierce. Put Maradona's talent in today's era and you might even see a better player simply because of competition/difficulty that helps his skill level.

Same goes for Jordan - Bryant. Even though this comparison has less years in between, Kobe has a slight edge in terms of skill simply because competition now is more fierce then it was less than a decade ago. If you are someone who looks closely at the level of difficulty that Kobe is able to achieve in his plays, I don't think you can compare him to anyone else. But you could also argue that if Jordan played at the level of difficulty/competition today, he could have even been a better player.

Honestly that statement you made above in bold, belies a very superficial and thoroughly erroneous knowledge of the NBA and its history. To say something so wrong as "the competition wasn't as fierce in the 80's and 90's" is so downright absurd that I can't even take your overall point seriously. Bird, Magic, Worthy, Kareem, Mchale, Hakeem, Mourning, Malone, Stockton, Drexler, Dominique Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Robinson, Rodman, Tim Hardaway, Mullin, Ritchmond, Payton, Kemp, and on and on and on....those guy's didn't compete? The 80's and 90's of the NBA were the golden age with more HOF'ers and all-time greats than you could count. The NBA is just now starting to regain the same sort of prominence that it did then, from 1998-2006 the NBA was no where near as good as a decade or two before.

[ommy48]

Kobe Bryant fans, stat geeks and referee conspiracy theorists -- everyone got what they wanted from last night's Lakers win over the Bucks.

Kobe Bryant fans
That's what he does, right? That game-winner over Charlie Bell is precisely the reason that Kobe Bryant wins all kinds of surveys as most feared player in the NBA.

He knows who's going to be defending him. He knows where he wants to get on the court. He knows what he wants to do when he gets there. He knows how to account for his injured finger. He has practiced everything.

Other players are bigger and stronger. But nobody knows more, prepares better or better embodies sheer professionalism. Any success he has is well deserved.

Think back through his career. How many times have you seen him hit game-winners? 30? 40? A thousand? We can all remember plenty of them. And that's why he has the best selling jersey in the world.

Last night's shot gave Kobe Bryant fans precisely the evidence they need to prove, yet again, that this guy is the absolute best.

Who would question them?

Stat geeks


It's not as fun a way to see the NBA, but it's real.

Every which way people slice and dice crunch time numbers -- field goal percentage, plus/minus, you name it -- Bryant is not the NBA's best in crunch time. A glance at last year's crunch time numbers on 82games.com makes clear Bryant shoots more than anyone else in the NBA in crunch time, but is he more skilled at making those shots? That's what we're trying to judge, right? In crunch time field goal percentage, last season Bryant finished 92nd in the League, right behind Michael Beasley. Others ahead of him include Kevin Garnett, both Gasols, Zach Randolph, Carmelo Anthony, Jason Terry, Jameer Nelson, Tim Duncan, Amare Stoudemire, Eric Gordon, Brandon Roy, Andre Iguodala, Jason Kidd, Ben Gordon, and Chris Bosh.

You can remember Bryant hitting all those clutch baskets, stat geeks say. But you're forgetting all the misses. (And if you are learning about Bryant from highlights, then you're not even seeing most misses.)

82games defines crunch time as the last five minutes of the fourth quarter, and all of overtimes, when neither team is leading by more than five points.

In that period last night, Bryant showed some of the mixed bag of efficiency that the stats show, by turning the ball over, making a shot, missing three straight, and then closing the game in style. He ended fourth quarter Laker plays as follows:
2:40 turnover
2:11 made jumper
1:46 missed jumper
0:31 assist
0:02 missed jumper

In overtime:
1:34 missed 3
1:17 made jumper
0:48 made layup + free throw
0:00 made jumper

Bryant wound up four of seven in crunch time -- which is a healthy 57% from the floor. That's above average crunch time shooting for him, but not as good as those with the the NBA's best percentages. So he had a good night, compared to the 46% crunch time percentage from last year.

But one less make would have put him at 50%, and did you hear the commentary with the highlights above?

Conspiracy theorists

The Lakers won by one point in overtime. They got three points in the final minute on a play that appeared to most observers to feature both a Bryant charge and a travel, when he made himself into a bowling ball and Andrew Bogut into a bowling pin.

The NBA says there are no such things as superstar calls, but was anybody surprised by that? Can you find examples of Dwyane Wade, LeBron James or Kobe Bryant getting whistled for offensive fouls with the ball on the way to the hoop with the game on the line? This is not new. If it happens at all, it happens very little. It's evident superstars operate with a certain impunity. You could argue it's a reason to have a superstar -- so you don't have to worry much about offensive fouls with the game on the line.

Even on the next play, Bryant's game-winner, he gathered the ball, and then hopped noticeably with both feet before pivoting.

It's not alarming or even all that disappointing to me. The game is hard to referee in real time, and everyone wants to see plays like the one above.

And in a way, wasn't last night's game perfect? Kobe Bryant fans, stat geeks, conspiracy theorists ... Just about everyone got what they wanted.

[KasraKhan]

Cliffs? ^

[KasraKhan]

Oh btw. I just need to type two numbers and it will make my arguement for me.

81

[ommy48]

Oh btw. I just need to type two numbers and it will make my arguement for me.
81

wow how eloquent and persuasive, i would expect nothing less from a laker fan

[PersianMadrid7]

Honestly that statement you made above in bold, belies a very superficial and thoroughly erroneous knowledge of the NBA and its history. To say something so wrong as "the competition wasn't as fierce in the 80's and 90's" is so downright absurd that I can't even take your overall point seriously. Bird, Magic, Worthy, Kareem, Mchale, Hakeem, Mourning, Malone, Stockton, Drexler, Dominique Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Robinson, Rodman, Tim Hardaway, Mullin, Ritchmond, Payton, Kemp, and on and on and on....those guy's didn't compete? The 80's and 90's of the NBA were the golden age with more HOF'ers and all-time greats than you could count. The NBA is just now starting to regain the same sort of prominence that it did then, from 1998-2006 the NBA was no where near as good as a decade or two before.

I respect your knowledge of the NBA, but I really think your arrogance of statistics avoids understanding a very simply fact that exists in the progression of every sport. Players today are much more physical then they were 10-20 years ago. Going back to the Bryant-Jordan arguement, do you really believe defenders back then were the same physically as they are today? I don't think so, that's why Kobe deserves more credit for his success in the NBA. That's why statistics are in favour of great players during the 80's/90's compared to players today.

If we are talking about who dominated their era the most, then Jordan wins based on statistics and what not that is present right now. But if you are to compare the 2 players head to head then Bryant is the more skilled basketball player simply because as I said before the level of difficulty in the league and his ability dominate in it.

[Babak]

This thread was not about comparing Kobe to Lebron or Jordan. Respect that and take the nuisance elsewhere. If you really want to talk about Jordan and his numbers so badly, make a separate thread about him and we'll join you there. Let's keep this related to Kobe and hsi achievements.

Stats are relevant, but just a part of any discussion in regards to a player's overall status. They are not determining of anything. It's interesting that you don't respond to Phil Jackson's comparison of the two either. Either way, seems like a guy whose mind is so firmly entrenched in one camp, and refuses to acknowledge the possibility of things changing over time, isn't worthy of having a conversation with. So save the sulking for some Bulls fans on RealGM or something.

[ommy48]

This thread was not about comparing Kobe to Lebron or Jordan. Respect that and take the nuisance elsewhere. If you really want to talk about Jordan and his numbers so badly, make a separate thread about him and we'll join you there. Let's keep this related to Kobe and hsi achievements.

Stats are relevant, but just a part of any discussion in regards to a player's overall status. They are not determining of anything. It's interesting that you don't respond to Phil Jackson's comparison of the two either. Either way, seems like a guy whose mind is so firmly entrenched in one camp, and refuses to acknowledge the possibility of things changing over time, isn't worthy of having a conversation with. So save the sulking for some Bulls fans on RealGM or something.

lol what a typical cop-out from someone who can't back up his bold words with anything other than hot air, especially after he explicitly asked me to provide some solid "evidence" to back my "biased viewpoint". Keep running little man, cause you sure as hell can't back up anything you stated earlier in this thread with any empirical evidence.

LOOOOL and he has the nerve to say that I am avoiding Phil Jackson's two minute evaluation on a radio show 2 years ago, in which he conveniently avoided answering the question and made sure to compliment both players very tangentially....Phil Jackson is a shrewd man that is well known in NBA circles for talking out of both sides of his mouth and if you seriously think that he will give a straight and honest answer on this topic while he IS THE COACH of one of the players, one who he has had troubles coaching in the past, then you really don't know much about Phil Jackson and the politics of basketball. Phil also said that Kobe was the most uncoachable player he has ever had in his own book and yet came back to coach him when the Buss's ponied up 10 mill a year for his services again. The guy is a master of double speak and will hardly ruffle the feathers of his current superstar. If you don't think that had an effect on his coy answer then you really are naive. But really you should find yourself embarrassed to have responded to my presentation of UNBIASED stats, with your 2 minute radio interview. yeah and stats are only part of the equation , your keen unbiased insight is the other part I guess huh?

next time you make hyperbolic statements and comparisons, maybe you should think twice about doing so, cause I wasn't the one who started or broached the subject matter at all, you were, I sure as hell finished it though. I apologize for challenging your assertion and not buying your compelling argument for it by saying: "I said so that's why!" carry on.....

[Babak]

lol what a typical cop-out from someone who can't back up his bold words with anything other than hot air, especially after he explicitly asked me to provide some solid "evidence" to back my "biased viewpoint". Keep running little man, cause you sure as hell can't back up anything you stated earlier in this thread with any empirical evidence.
LOOOOL and he has the nerve to say that I am avoiding Phil Jackson's two minute evaluation on a radio show 2 years ago, in which he conveniently avoided answering the question and made sure to compliment both players very tangentially....Phil Jackson is a shrewd man that is well known in NBA circles for talking out of both sides of his mouth and if you seriously think that he will give a straight and honest answer on this topic while he IS THE COACH of one of the players, one who he has had troubles coaching in the past, then you really don't know much about Phil Jackson and the politics of basketball. Phil also said that Kobe was the most uncoachable player he has ever had in his own book and yet came back to coach him when the Buss's ponied up 10 mill a year for his services again. The guy is a master of double speak and will hardly ruffle the feathers of his current superstar. If you don't think that had an effect on his coy answer then you really are naive. But really you should find yourself embarrassed to have responded to my presentation of UNBIASED stats, with your 2 minute radio interview. yeah and stats are only part of the equation , your keen unbiased insight is the other part I guess huh?
next time you make hyperbolic statements and comparisons, maybe you should think twice about doing so, cause I wasn't the one who started or broached the subject matter at all, you were, I sure as hell finished it though. I apologize for challenging your assertion and not buying your compelling argument for it by saying: "I said so that's why!" carry on.....

It's hard to have a reasonable discussion with you on a topic like this that you are so passionate about, so hold onto your opinion and I'll hold onto mine. The irony is that we both share the same opinion: Jordan is the greatest ever.

The difference between our opinion is that I think it's possible this "may" change one day depending on things that may possibly happen in Kobe's future. You refuse to believe that Kobe may one day be considered the greatest ever, regardless of what ultimately happens during the rest of his career. I choose to take a hypothetical scenario into consideration since that's what speculation and conjecture is all about. You don't.

Talk about hard-headedness.

[Babak]

Nice clip of Kobe rejecting Jordan during the All-Star game. You can see that Jordan is noticably heated after the play: