Euro 2016 Qualifiers

[rugs]

Much like ISIS is trying to establish a caliphate based on religious lines surpassing current national boundaries, fr the 5th time, that flag denotes a greater Albania drawn up along ethnic lines surpassing current national boundaries. It really should not be this complicated to understand for an objective person - which brings me to my next point.

I don't need to be fed information nor do I hate Muslims or Albanians or Serbians - I love all people and how much I love them depends on how much decency and humanity they show, not where they come from or what they believe in. I believe there are always two sides to a story and because of that I always try to understand both sides without subjecting my viewpoint to any prejudices or pre-conceived notions or readily jumping into conclusions.

If you were interested in doing the same, you wouldn't have jumped over my statement, repeated several times, that the flag you posted denotes a GREATER ALBANIA and come back with a blah blah about those two guys being so and so. I'm going to write it a little bigger this time, hoping that you wouldn't miss it like the last 4 or 5 times:

That big red thing in the middle of that flag is NOT a map of Albania. It's a map of "Greater Albania" drawn along ethnic lines, including all of Kosovo, parts of Macedonia, Greece and SERBIA.

It's no different than an ISIS flag showing parts of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, etc. belonging to a caliphate, or a Kurdistan flag showing the same, nor is it different than a flag you'd expect to see in Nazi Germany before WWII or something drawn up by Serb ultra-nationalists. What is wrong is wrong is wrong - it doesn't matter which side is doing it.

Sorry, but there is no justification for saying it is like the ISIS flag.

ISIS is a religious fanatical group that has been terrorizing the region and executing innocent people and selling women into slavery.

Greater Albania is akin to the notion of Greater Iran that includes regions that were historically part of Iran or in this case Albania.

It is a nationalist movement, not a terrorist group. Greater Albania is based on where Albanians live. ISIS wants to control the world.

How you see that as a valid comparison is beyond me.

[rugs]

Okay azeez, it's like Russia and Ukraine...

And you are suggesting that if the Russians had flown a drone into a stadium in Kiev during a Ukraine-Russia football game, holding a flag that showed large parts of Ukraine belonging to Russia, Ukranian fans would have taken it as good fun and saluted to it with some Horilka?!

Or if the situation was reversed and the Ukranians had flown a similar flag into a Russia-Ukraine match in Moscow, the Russians would have just clapped and taken it as a funny joke and washed it down with a few shots of Vodka?!

Lol, i'm pretty sure he meant the other way around....

Russia = Serbia = Historic Aggressor

Ukraine = Albania = Historic victim


If the Ukrainians did the same 50 years from now with a flag that included Crimea, i'm pretty sure everyone but the Russians would have a good laugh over it.

[Bi-honar]

Sorry, but there is no justification for saying it is like the ISIS flag.

ISIS is a religious fanatical group that has been terrorizing the region and executing innocent people and selling women into slavery.

Greater Albania is akin to the notion of Greater Iran that includes regions that were historically part of Iran or in this case Albania.

It is a nationalist movement, not a terrorist group. Greater Albania is based on where Albanians live. ISIS wants to control the world.

How you see that as a valid comparison is beyond me.

There is no difference to me between religious fanaticism and ethno-national fanaticism. For the love of God bro, you just spent half a dozen posts discussing the dangers of ethno-national fanaticism as related to the Serbs! Why do you flip flop so quickly just to try and make a point that does not exist?!

And no, it's not like a greater Iran, because Iran was a country and those parts actually belonged to Iran. They never belonged to Albania - ever. And all that aside, if Iranian had done something similar in an Azerbaijan-Iran match in Baku, I would have also called it a disgraceful act that had no place in a sporting arena. Would you have thought it was all in good fun?!

[rugs]

There is no difference to me between religious fanaticism and ethno-national fanaticism. For the love of God bro, you just spent half a dozen posts discussing the dangers of ethno-national fanaticism as related to the Serbs! Why do you flip flop so quickly just to try and make a point that does not exist?!

And no, it's not like a greater Iran, because Iran was a country and those parts actually belonged to Iran. They never belonged to Albania - ever. And all that aside, if Iranian had done something similar in an Azerbaijan-Iran match in Baku, I would have also called it a disgraceful act that had no place in a sporting arena. Would you have thought it was all in good fun?!

The difference is, like I said, both ISIS and the SERBS have massacred people. And the Serb invasions were 100% religious. The terrorists were blessed by Orthodox priests before heading out to fight. Why weren't Bosnian Serbs massacred? But Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats were?

Albanians have been the victims, that's the biggest difference. ISIS and SERBS have been the aggressors. Why don't you get that?

And they belonged to Albania too... Why do you think there are Albanians living there?!

There was the Kingdom of Albania and more recently during WWII this was Albania. Those parts did belong to Albania at some point. But that's not even the main issue. The issue here is that Albanians did not mass murder and commit genocide like the SERBS and ISIS.

[Z Joon]

[Abtin]

^ Khubesh shod, he deserved more, he should have been damaged more!

[Bi-honar]

The difference is, like I said, both ISIS and the SERBS have massacred people. And the Serb invasions were 100% religious. The terrorists were blessed by Orthodox priests before heading out to fight. Why weren't Bosnian Serbs massacred? But Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats were?

Albanians have been the victims, that's the biggest difference. ISIS and SERBS have been the aggressors. Why don't you get that?

And they belonged to Albania too... Why do you think there are Albanians living there?!

There was the Kingdom of Albania and more recently during WWII this was Albania. Those parts did belong to Albania at some point. But that's not even the main issue. The issue here is that Albanians did not mass murder and commit genocide like the SERBS and ISIS.

They didn't belong to Albania bro. Albania has been a country for a very short time and its borders never extended beyond its present day borders, even during the other two very short periods in history when it could be considered a country. Those territories belonged to the Serbs, Ottoman empire, Italy (as your map correctly suggests) among others. There are Kurds in Iran too - it doesn't mean 50 years from now someone should make the argument that Kordestan belonged to Kurdistan because Kurds live there.

And there were no shortage of atrocities committed by Kosovo Albanians and the KLA during the Kosovo war. In general, that's the ugly nature of humanity and given power and ethno-religious fanaticism, the results are always the same. I don't know what you are suggesting that because they haven't had the power to commit atrocities on a larger scale (like the Serbs of 1970 or Al-Qaeda of 1990 did not) we shouldn't have the insight to see where these things can go?

I don't even understand what you've been arguing for 4 pages, that it's okay to fly a drone into the middle of football game whose theme is "say no to racism" and promote ehtno-fanaticism?! I mean, what exactly are you arguing with me about for 4 pages. I don't think a sporting arena is a place to make a political statement. You think it is, then that's your opinion. You're certainly not going to change mine.

[rugs]

They didn't belong to Albania bro. Albania has been a country for a very short time and its borders never extended beyond its present day borders, even during the other two very short periods in history when it could be considered a country. Those territories belonged to the Serbs, Ottoman empire, Italy (as your map correctly suggests) among others. There are Kurds in Iran too - it doesn't mean 50 years from now someone should make the argument that Kordestan belonged to Kurdistan because Kurds live there.

And there were no shortage of atrocities committed by Kosovo Albanians and the KLA during the Kosovo war. In general, that's the ugly nature of humanity and given power and ethno-religious fanaticism, the results are always the same. I don't know what you are suggesting that because they haven't had the power to commit atrocities on a larger scale (like the Serbs of 1970 or Al-Qaeda of 1990 did not) we shouldn't have the insight to see where these things can go?

I don't even understand what you've been arguing for 4 pages, that it's okay to fly a drone into the middle of football game whose theme is "say no to racism" and promote ehtno-fanaticism?! I mean, what exactly are you arguing with me about for 4 pages. I don't think a sporting arena is a place to make a political statement. You think it is, then that's your opinion. You're certainly not going to change mine.

and Serbia has only been a country since 2006.

I thought it's clear why we are arguing. It's overr your initial comments:

That's NOT an Albanian flag - it's pretty much the equivalent of an ISIS flag and denotes an imaginary "greater Albania" within the Balkans!

To understand the Serbs' reaction, imagine this was a game between Iran and Iraq before the revolution and someone flew in a flag over Azadi that denoted Khuzestan being a part of Iraq (as Arabistan). Then a TM player finally bringing down the flag, only to be grabbed by an Iraqi player and paraded around some more.

It's a pretty shameful display from both sides as far as I'm concerned - a football game is NOT a place to make political statements.

1. That it is not the equivalent of an ISIS flag.

2. We should understand why some Albanians did that before we understand the Serbs' reaction.

3. The Iran example is not valid.

[Shamim]

I am not pro albanains either pro serb its not my war but i have to admit bringing a flag with a drone was genuis idea, it shows that drones are coming more and more important in our every day life.

[Bi-honar]

and Serbia has only been a country since 2006.

LOL. Whatever you say brother.

1. That it is not the equivalent of an ISIS flag.

2. We should understand why some Albanians did that before we understand the Serbs' reaction.

3. The Iran example is not valid.

1 - To me it is and there are always two sides to an argument, whether you like it or not!

2 - There's nothing to understand. A sporting arena is not a place to make a political statement and that's not just my view it is the view of FIFA which has governing authority over these games.

3 - That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it.

[O-ZoNe]

Long live Yugoslavia! Anyways, technically speaking, Serbian footballers are much more gifted than any of the former Yugoslav nations. These people have always been trying to antagonize the Serbs through sporting events because they have (sometimes rightfully) grievances on the political stage.

The Albanian flag incident reminded me of the Croatia flag incident during the 1990 bball championships

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxOoceI_cNc

[KeonKish]

Re: Euro 2016 Qualifiers

Long live Yugoslavia! Anyways, technically speaking, Serbian footballers are much more gifted than any of the former Yugoslav nations. These people have always been trying to antagonize the Serbs through sporting events because they have (sometimes rightfully) grievances on the political stage.

The Albanian flag incident reminded me of the Croatia flag incident during the 1990 bball championships

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxOoceI_cNc

Croatia is much better than serbia. Although it seems Croats are more gifted in attack while serbs in defense. Now imagine a Yugoslavia team with today's players, that's a killer team.


Dzeko mandzukic
Rakitic modric pjanic
Matic
Kolarov lovren srna Ivanovic

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

[rugs]

LOL. Whatever you say brother.




1 - To me it is and there are always two sides to an argument, whether you like it or not!

2 - There's nothing to understand. A sporting arena is not a place to make a political statement and that's not just my view it is the view of FIFA which has governing authority over these games.

3 - That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it.

Well, when you set the parameters of the debate at:

Albania has been a country for a very short time.

And ignoring it's historical kingdom, then one can use those same parameters and say Serbia has only been a country since 2006.

Regardless of how you or I may feel about the flag, the fact that Serbia isn't safe enough for opposing team players let alone their fans says enough. What's even worse is that it not only applies to Albania being the opposing team, but also Croatia and Bosnia.

[rugs]

Croatia is much better than serbia. Although it seems Croats are more gifted in attack while serbs in defense. Now imagine a Yugoslavia team with today's players, that's a killer team.


Dzeko mandzukic
Rakitic modric pjanic
Matic
Kolarov lovren srna Ivanovic

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

Croatia is definitely the best former Yugoslav team. I love their confident style of play. They play very similar to Italy because they all have that bache poroo mentality with one brain on the team (Pirlo, Modric)

[Bi-honar]

Well, when you set the parameters of the debate at:

And ignoring it's historical kingdom, then one can use those same parameters and say Serbia has only been a country since 2006.

Honestly dude, the lengths you're willing to go to make a point that doesn't exist is mind boggling. At least have the decency to put "..." at the end of that sentence instead of a period. This was the full sentence:

"Albania has been a country for a very short time and its borders never extended beyond its present day borders, even during the other two very short periods in history when it could be considered a country."

So, you not only choose to ignore the 2nd part of that sentence, but rearrange it and tell me I'm ignoring something?!

For those who are too lazy to Google or Wiki but like to follow the discussion, there "were two very short periods" from 1928 to 1944 (i.e. 16 years) and 1274 to 1294 (i.e. 22 years) when Albania "could be considered a country".

And before my good friend Rugs jumps in and says the 1st period lasted until 1368 (which is still a short time anyway), from 1294 to 1368 the "kingdom" was more or less reduced to an isolated city state rather than having enough territory to be considered a country (hence my original choice of words).