Bosnia is having a horrible EURO 2016 campaign

[xerexes]

You're saying this bro as if he didn't make those comments publicly. These are the sentences that were exchanged after the match and you call if what you will (really, the truth, whatever) - to me they're just weasel clauses and excuses:
Susic: CQ: He has players who play in Roma and Manchester City, and whom do I have?

But aziz, that's just the truth. And it's not like he said it before the match to demoralize the team; this was said afterwards. Rugs did a good job of laying out the differences between our squad and Bosnia's. We simply did not have the depth to make more than one or two changes and hope to maintain the same quality. Other than starting Jahanbakhsh (which I do think he should have done) there just wasn't much else to do. Especially when the existing lineup had performed so well against Argentina.

I also don't think the players in any way share this perception of CQ that some of you guys have here. Our players aren't exactly famous for lacking ego, being subservient to coaches, or having a team-first mentality. Yet I've rarely seen any generation of our players respond to a coach the way these guys have to CQ. Nor have I seen a coach get team melli to function as a unit the way CQ did in this WC. I think the players are in a much better position to evaluate their coach's attitude toward them than we are.

No, the line was that we played a "convincing" game against Argentina in the 2nd half. We achieved what we wanted to achieve in the game against Nigeria and first half of the Argentina game, even if we were not convincing (particularly against Nigeria where we had little to show). Now, it's your personal opinion that Bosnia dominated Argentina and Nigeria. As far as I'm concerned the scoreline in both of those games was a fair reflection and for a team that was supposed to be attack attack attack, they were well contained by both teams and Susic was out-coached in both of those games.

I don't know where you get the idea that Bosnia was supposed to be attack attack attack against Argentina and Nigeria. I think the most that people expected of them going into this tournament was to just hold their own against those teams. They definitely did more than that and I remember most sources agreeing they were unlucky not to win their first two games. By that third match I for one had no illusions about us having a comfortable game against them.

[Bi-honar]

But aziz, that's just the truth. And it's not like he said it before the match to demoralize the team; this was said afterwards. Rugs did a good job of laying out the differences between our squad and Bosnia's. We simply did not have the depth to make more than one or two changes and hope to maintain the same quality. Other than starting Jahanbakhsh (which I do think he should have done) there just wasn't much else to do. Especially when the existing lineup had performed so well against Argentina.

Doesn't matter when he said it bro, what matters is that he thought it. No coach in the history of football has done well with a team without having belief in themselves and their squad. You should know this better than anyone else from our days on the other side - no one gets anywhere with a loser mantality.

I also don't think the players in any way share this perception of CQ that some of you guys have here. Our players aren't exactly famous for lacking ego, being subservient to coaches, or having a team-first mentality. Yet I've rarely seen any generation of our players respond to a coach the way these guys have to CQ. Nor have I seen a coach get team melli to function as a unit the way CQ did in this WC. I think the players are in a much better position to evaluate their coach's attitude toward them than we are.

Other than the last sentence, I totally agree with you and this is something that I always hoped would lead to the betterment of TM in the long run. As far as the last sentence, don't sell us short dude, we do what we want!

I don't know where you get the idea that Bosnia was supposed to be attack attack attack against Argentina and Nigeria. I think the most that people expected of them going into this tournament was to just hold their own against those teams. They definitely did more than that and I remember most sources agreeing they were unlucky not to win their first two games. By that third match I for one had no illusions about us having a comfortable game against them.

Hmmm, from Susic?!

[clipsport]

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Sorry to put this here guys. But Xerexes jan, Your inbox is full. It says you have to delete some things.

[rugs]

All the more reasons not to have fielded virtually the same team in 3 consecutive games. I'm not ignoring that, you guys are ignoring that!


As they were against Egypt and Cyprus, neither of which even had/have the level of talent and fitness (on paper since that's the only thing that's important to you) that TM did. And if they were so stacked a few players shouldn't have made a 3 goal difference against Israel.

And I have already debunked the myth that TM was not fit by the time the WC rolled around. Yes, we had fitness issues 4 months before the tournament, but we matched or outran all our 3 opponents in the group stage and that's based on facts and traveled distances and despite starting every game with 90% of the same squad.

-----------------------

At any rate boys, as the wise man said earlier the WC is over and we'll know in less than 24 hours where we stand now. As I said in another thread I am hopeful to be pleasantly surprised by CQ tomorrow. If he delivers, then what happened with Bosnia in the WC will be forgotten history.

But if he doesn't (heaven forbid) and blames the result on our players or Koreans having better players, blah blah blah, I will be VERY pissed.

You are not being logical. Who would you have played against Bosnia? What would your lineup have been? You talk as if by simply doing x, y, and z we would have won the match. I just don't get it. I believe the proper term is monday morning quarterback.

Again, I don't know why you guys keep repeating the same thing. Bosnia against Isreal was missing: Dzeko, Ibisivic, Bicakcic, Kolasinac, Salihovic... not to mention Pjanic who got injured in the match! Do you know anything about Bosnia's team? Or are we talking about something akin to a Bosnia fan saying "Iran lost 3-1 to Oman in a friendly, we should have beaten them by at least 6 goals."

It's mind blowing how you guys talk about Bosnia as if you know anything about the team. It's even more mind blowing that you would quote a manager who has been a disaster for BiH and is on the verge of being fired. Did you even watch the match yesterday? Do you know anything about Bosnia's lineup? Did you know that the manager you are quoting subbed out their 2nd best player on the pitch, a DMF, only to sub in another DMF 20 minutes later?

People complained that others were talking about Iran without any knowledge of the team, but it seems many are doing the same here about Bosnia.

[EKBATAN]

bosnia played like high school kids against israel. horrible defending and very little offense.

[Kiarash]

Bosnia is having a horrible EURO 2016 campaign

You are not being logical. Who would you have played against Bosnia? What would your lineup have been? You talk as if by simply doing x, y, and z we would have won the match. I just don't get it. I believe the proper term is monday morning quarterback.

Again, I don't know why you guys keep repeating the same thing. Bosnia against Isreal was missing: Dzeko, Ibisivic, Bicakcic, Kolasinac, Salihovic... not to mention Pjanic who got injured in the match! Do you know anything about Bosnia's team? Or are we talking about something akin to a Bosnia fan saying "Iran lost 3-1 to Oman in a friendly, we should have beaten them by at least 6 goals."

It's mind blowing how you guys talk about Bosnia as if you know anything about the team. It's even more mind blowing that you would quote a manager who has been a disaster for BiH and is on the verge of being fired. Did you even watch the match yesterday? Do you know anything about Bosnia's lineup? Did you know that the manager you are quoting subbed out their 2nd best player on the pitch, a DMF, only to sub in another DMF 20 minutes later?

People complained that others were talking about Iran without any knowledge of the team, but it seems many are doing the same here about Bosnia.

I watched the full 90 minutes.

[Bi-honar]

You are not being logical. Who would you have played against Bosnia? What would your lineup have been? You talk as if by simply doing x, y, and z we would have won the match. I just don't get it. I believe the proper term is monday morning quarterback.

Yes is the answer to all your questions after this paragraph. But as far as these questions, I sure as hell wouldn't have played with the same defensive 4-2-3-1 for the first 20 minutes of a match where I thought my players (particularly my defense) were fatigued from that formation and constantly being on their back foot. There could have been no bigger blunder than to ask a team that soaked up 180 minutes of constant pressure in the previous two games to keep doing it for another 20 minutes.

So I would have done everything to take the pressure of my D's and DM's and started out with a 3-5-2 (3-2-3-2 to be exact), taking Sadeghi out, played both JB and Gucci upfront with Hajsafi and Heydari on the flanks and Ashkan in the middle with JB playing slightly behind Gucci to the right (Nekou and Ando playing their usual role). I would have told Gucci, Hajsafi and Heydari to put in 110% because I knew that I have equally capable and fresh players on the bench to replace them (Karim, Shojaei and Steven) to play in the exact same formation - that's why I would have taken them in the 1st place!

The pep talk would have been that we are at the verge of making history and qualifying for the 2nd round for the 1st time and that we can beat these guys and my formation would have reflected my trust in my squad as would my orders which would have been to put maximum pressure in the first 15 minutes and surprise Bosnia with an attacking game contrary to our last two games and an early goal to completely demoralize them - they were clearly demoralized and frustrated in the 2nd half of the Nigeria game and I would have taken full advantage of that.

Then I would have switched back to a 5-3-2 with both Hajsafi and Heydari dropping back to D to absorb the pressure for the next 10 minutes and would have again switched to an attacking 3-5-2 to contain Bosnia's weaker links (i.e. defense and midfield) for as long as I felt my team was keeping up. Again, it's a blunder of monumental proportions to allow the strongest part of your opponent to dictate the game to you. Then if and when it was time, I would have switched back to the defensive 4-2-3-1 dropping Ashkan and bringing in Alenemeh to deal with the aerial threats..

[rugs]

Yes is the answer to all your questions after this paragraph. But as far as these questions, I sure as hell wouldn't have played with the same defensive 4-2-3-1 for the first 20 minutes of a match where I thought my players (particularly my defense) were fatigued from that formation and constantly being on their back foot. There could have been no bigger blunder than to ask a team that soaked up 180 minutes of constant pressure in the previous two games to keep doing it for another 20 minutes.

So I would have done everything to take the pressure of my D's and DM's and started out with a 3-5-2 (3-2-3-2 to be exact), taking Sadeghi out, played both JB and Gucci upfront with Hajsafi and Heydari on the flanks and Ashkan in the middle with JB playing slightly behind Gucci to the right (Nekou and Ando playing their usual role). I would have told Gucci, Hajsafi and Heydari to put in 110% because I knew that I have equally capable and fresh players on the bench to replace them (Karim, Shojaei and Steven) to play in the exact same formation - that's why I would have taken them in the 1st place!

The pep talk would have been that we are at the verge of making history and qualifying for the 2nd round for the 1st time and that we can beat these guys and my formation would have reflected my trust in my squad as would my orders which would have been to put maximum pressure in the first 15 minutes and surprise Bosnia with an attacking game contrary to our last two games and an early goal to completely demoralize them - they were clearly demoralized and frustrated in the 2nd half of the Nigeria game and I would have taken full advantage of that.

Then I would have switched back to a 5-3-2 with both Hajsafi and Heydari dropping back to D to absorb the pressure for the next 10 minutes and would have again switched to an attacking 3-5-2 to contain Bosnia's weaker links (i.e. defense and midfield) for as long as I felt my team was keeping up. Again, it's a blunder of monumental proportions to allow the strongest part of your opponent to dictate the game to you. Then if and when it was time, I would have switched back to the defensive 4-2-3-1 dropping Ashkan and bringing in Alenemeh to deal with the aerial threats..

I like that plan actually.

But I still 100% disagree with your assessment of Bosnia

[rugs]

Bosnia just fired Susic.

[Z Joon]

It's now or never, Ali Daei ostureh should take over!!! Somebody contact the Bosnian federation

[rugs]

^ They've been trying for awhile to get Halilhodzic, Algerian NT manager.

He has said that his friends are pressuring him to take the job. But he has always refused because of the corrupt BFA.

[Abedzadeh]

Everything you said here applies to Iran just as much as it did to Bosnia. They also played the same two opponents. Iran also played a GREAT game (much better than Bosnia IMHO) against Argentina. If they deserved a draw against Nigeria, they would have just achieved as much as we did.
And the condition of back-to-back games applied to both teams. If anything, this was Bosnia's 1st ever tournament and we had been there many many times before, not just in the WC but in the Asian Cup - experience was on our side, not theirs.
The only thing that made the difference was that Susic fielded 5 fresh players for the game against Iran (i.e. half his team was fresh and motivated) and CQ didn't field even one new player - same line-up, same tactics, lots of fatigue. But the worst part was that instead of taking responsibility for this terrible blunder, he actually blamed it on the talent of players who had been giving him 110% in the previous two games.
In that CQ was out-coached in that game and made some shameful remarks after, there should be no argument. All we can do now is hope that he learnt something from that game and won't be making the same mistake in the Asian Cup where we'll also be playing back-to-back games - and even more of them.

Pretty much everything I had to say in response to your post was mentioned in the subsequent replies of Rugs and Xerxes. Bi-Honar jan, I will address your points below, but the main point of my above-message which you quoted in the context of this particular thread is that you cannot take the result of today's stand-alone match between Israel and Bosnia as some sort of barometer as to how we should have fared against them (Bosnia) in a tournament setting.

With regard to your post; as I said in my original message, our national team does not have the experience of playing top caliber national teams in a tournament setting format. Moreover, it certainly does hurt when the overwhelming majority of our players currently play in Iran's domestic league. As Querioz mentioned, there is a considerable gap in the distances that IPL players cover (i.e. which ultimately translates into fitness capabilities) during a match, compared to the average distance a player in a European league can cover. Remember what Queroiz said; unlike virtually every other national team, our national team is one of the few in the world where the players receive their fitness preparation at the national level, rather than the club level. These are important factors.

In contrast, none of these are issues for Bosnia. As Rugs and Xerxes mentioned, they are packed to the brim with players that play in top Euro leagues, and when we say players that play in Euro leagues, we don't mean players that sit on the bench for their European teams, but top-class players that are established stars (Dzeko, Pjanic, Ibasavic, Kolasinac, etc.). Even all three of Bosnia's substitutes against us play in Europe. When basically the entirety of your roster play for strong European teams, and has top-class players, the fitness issue will not become a burden to the same extent that it was for our team. You really cannot compare the two because of the starkly different situation. In my opinion you are greatly underestimating the capability and strength of Bosnia, and I think you are exaggerating our team's capabilities, by confusing passion and enthusiasm for our team's strength.

Another issue that considerably accounts for the fitness levels is age; we were one of the older teams in the tournament. 6 out of our 10 field players were 30 years of age or older. This will have an impact upon the speed/rate of player recovery after a match. Naturally players that are 30 or older don't recover from a match as fast as a younger player. It was pretty obvious after two tough matches that our players were pretty depleted for the final match. Bosnia, by contrast did not have this issue. If you check their roster of the players that played against us, the majority of their players are quite young (most of them early to mid twenties), and their older players are around 29. This means that their players are able to recover from matches much faster relative to our players. You are correct when you say that Bosnia had to play back to back to back matches the same way we did, but it's not as simple as that. There are other factors which I discussed above that make the critical distinction.

Yes, Susic made some changes to his line-up (he replaced some older players with younger, fresh players), as you said, but you also got to keep in mind that Bosnia, in my opinion, has a deeper roster from which to choose. Even when they take out their their older players for younger players, those younger players still have top-level European experience, and when you combine that with their fresh fitness levels, they can be very dangerous. In contrast, the options on our bench were quite thin (in my opinion). The entirety of our bench (minus Davari and Mehrdad/Steven) does not have experience outside of Iran's domestic league, so it would be quite risky to all of a sudden play them in an important match.

Also, I don't see how our previous - not to mention distant - World Cup experience (let alone Asian Cup experience) should give us some sort of entitlement to believe that a victory against Bosnia is our right. Remember Croatia in 1998, or Turkey in 2002? Likewise, we have never qualified for consecutive World Cups, and we have only qualified 4 times in our history, one of them prior to the revolution, once in '98, once in '06, and now (we aren't exactly a "consistent" team like South Korea, and it's not like we have qualified on 8 previous occasions). Only two of our players from the current squad have actually played in our previous WC appearance (and they are both > 30 now), so I don't see how this should affect things. Unfortunately, the only time we achieved a victory in the World Cup was way back in '98, and that victory came against the USA - the team that finished in 32nd place out of 32 teams in that particular edition of the tournament. As for the Asian Cup, I really don't have much to say, because it's the Asian Cup, lol, and I don't see how this should affect our understanding of Iran-Bosnia. The only thing I can add is that we unfortunately have not won the Championship in more than 30 years, and have not been considered tournament favorites since the 2000 edition.

[hzv]

i watched the iran vs bosnia game again a couple of days ago (i was visiting a friend and he had recorded it on pvr) we were awful in that game, our plan was to defend for 90 minutes and hope to catch a break and put one in the net. once dzeko scored that amazing goal we were done! we had no plan to attack nor did we know how. of course we were undone by player errors and clinical finishing by bosnians but the disappointment was we had no plans to attack,we were a one trick pony and cq seemed like a coach who can only play one game which of course he did throughout the qualifiers and the world cup and i expect to play in asian cup as well.


but all of this aside i really did not appreciate his comments leading to world cup and after the bosnia game. his comments and the backing he receives from media has lead to grossly underestimating our football and in some cases grossly over estimating some of our opponents with many fans buying in hook line and sinker. we are at a point that even if we exit in quarters it will be considered a great result and people will get on facebook and demand that cq receives a raise immediately and if he was not our coach we would ve gotten embarrassed by bahrain and u.a.e.

[ali alipour]

Why is bosnia still relevant in this forum
Its been 5 months im pretty sure most argentinians, nigerians, and bosnians dont give a shit about iran anymore

[Keano]

Folks,

LOOL hosele daarin shoma ham ha, 9 pages of argument over how Bosnia has been performing and how it defines our TM merit etc?

We always live in the past. It's always better to let go of things and move on, moving on for us, Iranians has always been the hardest part!

Let's focus on the future and what's ahead rather than fighting over what happened in the past please.